RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Alternative Lifestyles in the News >> RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia

Page: << < prev 10 11 [12] 13 14 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/11/2007 12:53:07 PM

Posts: 350
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardnRuff

Wait a minute here folks , Is this not just exactly what a TPE is ??..

I'd say this thread has certainly showcased the difference between TPE based on scenes/convenience/novelty and the perpetual "real thing". Apparently, some people can only handle the former, and not the latter.

As to the subject of kids, I do admire the male HoH philosophy for the harmony it brings into marriages. Its a great atmosphere to raise a family in. Outside of the HoH scene, kids today grow up in such a confused state, with parents who struggle and argue for supremacy on all matters household. Its no wonder that an increasing number of adults pass on the trend of divorce, and most kids eventually mature with a combative philosophy for everything in life.

< Message edited by DedicatedDom40 -- 8/11/2007 1:31:17 PM >

(in reply to HardnRuff)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/12/2007 7:06:15 AM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardnRuff

Wait a minute here folks , Is this not just exactly what a TPE is ??..

I'd say this thread has certainly showcased the difference between TPE based on scenes/convenience/novelty and the perpetual "real thing". Apparently, some people can only handle the former, and not the latter.

As to the subject of kids, I do admire the male HoH philosophy for the harmony it brings into marriages. Its a great atmosphere to raise a family in. Outside of the HoH scene, kids today grow up in such a confused state, with parents who struggle and argue for supremacy on all matters household. Its no wonder that an increasing number of adults pass on the trend of divorce, and most kids eventually mature with a combative philosophy for everything in life.

I'm going to stick to my guns and say that we are all being very foolish to see what is in this video as an example of what people in BDSM are doing. I doubt very much that those couples would agree with you all.

As for HoH -- why does the gender or sex of that individual matter? As long as their is mutual agreement on who has authority and where, why would that issue be important?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to DedicatedDom40)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/12/2007 7:58:03 PM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I'm going to stick to my guns and say that we are all being very foolish to see what is in this video as an example of what people in BDSM are doing. I doubt very much that those couples would agree with you all.

"Foolish" or not, I'm going to stick to my own guns and continue to disagree. As has been discussed over and over, this video is pretty slanted and, I believe, intended to rile people up. However, the two "people in BDSM" that are in my particular relationship operate very much like the couples in the video. To us, it is not "foolish" in the least to see our own M/s relationship mirrored in many ways by the couples in the video. It may not exemplify what your own relationship is like but it certainly does ours. As you know, there are many, many different dynamics and they are all quite valid and acceptable - even the type shown in the video.

luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 7:57:31 AM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I'm going to stick to my guns and say that we are all being very foolish to see what is in this video as an example of what people in BDSM are doing. I doubt very much that those couples would agree with you all.

"Foolish" or not, I'm going to stick to my own guns and continue to disagree. As has been discussed over and over, this video is pretty slanted and, I believe, intended to rile people up. However, the two "people in BDSM" that are in my particular relationship operate very much like the couples in the video. To us, it is not "foolish" in the least to see our own M/s relationship mirrored in many ways by the couples in the video. It may not exemplify what your own relationship is like but it certainly does ours. As you know, there are many, many different dynamics and they are all quite valid and acceptable - even the type shown in the video.

luci

Whoa there, I think you are completely misunderstanding my objection.

My objection is entirely based on what those couples would identify as -- I doubt very strongly they would identify as doing BDSM.

Why do you or anyone else want to see what you do mirrored in what they do?

What is the benefit to you of doing this?

By the way, this is the same question I'd have for someone in a different scene role looking at the vanilla world and saying "it's the same". And the same questions I ask when folks find "historical examples" of what they do now.

My questions are not specific to this video or to you as a person. I hope they are general questions to us all who do say "we do Ds" or "we do BDSM." They are questions I stop and ask myself when I am tempted to see what I do mirrored in other non-bdsm dynamics.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 9:33:00 AM

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

first, i wouldn't label the "Surrendered Wife" relationships as BDSM, anymore than i would label my own relationship as BDSM (we are firmly D/s-M/s, and draw a thick bold line between the two). i would definitely label the Surrendered Wife couples as D/s, because that is exactly what it is, a relationship dynamic based on Dominance and submission. as are MANY other relationship dynamics all over the world. D/s is nothing new under the sun, and is not unique to the few who use the label. no, these people would probably not label themselves as D/s, most likely because they have never heard of D/s. that goes without saying. women living in orthodox religious households in which obedience and submission to Males is expected and demanded would not label themselves as D/s either, they would likely say "this is just the way it is." but that doesn't make it any less D/s, for the simple reason that they are living under a structured, unequal power dynamic.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 9:47:31 AM

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

I have read the book and saw no dominance there at all. The male partner is a totally passive person and the wife isn't submitting to anything because she isn't being dominated. They are surrendered in a vacuum, I don't get it. Not being a nagging bitch and being pleasant to be around are surely nice traits in a wife to most men but I wouldn't call it D/s not by a country mile.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 11:00:57 AM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Why do you or anyone else want to see what you do mirrored in what they do?
What is the benefit to you of doing this?

I don't "want to see" it mirrored. I simply do. As I've said all the way through this thread, whether or not these couples "identify" or label themselves as D/s or anything similiar doesn't mean that what they are doing isn't very similar to what D/s is for me. I don't see why anyone would have an issue with this being true for me.

quote:

By the way, this is the same question I'd have for someone in a different scene role looking at the vanilla world and saying "it's the same". And the same questions I ask when folks find "historical examples" of what they do now

Ok. I'm not sure I really understand this.

quote:

My questions are not specific to this video or to you as a person. I hope they are general questions to us all who do say "we do Ds" or "we do BDSM." They are questions I stop and ask myself when I am tempted to see what I do mirrored in other non-bdsm dynamics

Again, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying. Why is it somehow wrong or a problem seeing what you do mirrored in other dynamics? I don't see a problem with that at all. I'm interested in the points you've made here. If you get time, could you please give me some examples or clarify a bit more for me? Thanks much...............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 11:02:55 AM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
first, i wouldn't label the "Surrendered Wife" relationships as BDSM, anymore than i would label my own relationship as BDSM (we are firmly D/s-M/s, and draw a thick bold line between the two). i would definitely label the Surrendered Wife couples as D/s, because that is exactly what it is, a relationship dynamic based on Dominance and submission. as are MANY other relationship dynamics all over the world. D/s is nothing new under the sun, and is not unique to the few who use the label. no, these people would probably not label themselves as D/s, most likely because they have never heard of D/s. that goes without saying. women living in orthodox religious households in which obedience and submission to Males is expected and demanded would not label themselves as D/s either, they would likely say "this is just the way it is." but that doesn't make it any less D/s, for the simple reason that they are living under a structured, unequal power dynamic.

Totally agreed, daddysprop.............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 11:08:47 AM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
I have read the book and saw no dominance there at all. The male partner is a totally passive person and the wife isn't submitting to anything because she isn't being dominated. They are surrendered in a vacuum, I don't get it

Interesting. I didn't see it that way at all. The author described surrendering power and control of nearly all decisions to the husband. I definitely saw the husbands as being the dominant partner in the relationships. I guess it all comes down to what ones sees as "domination?"

quote:

Not being a nagging bitch and being pleasant to be around are surely nice traits in a wife to most men but I wouldn't call it D/s not by a country mile

I wouldn't call those two specific examples D/s, per se, no. But many of the behaviors exhibited in the video seemed very similar to D/s as I define it (the husband's being in control of the household decisions, sexually in control, etc.). It's interesting how everyone looks at this from such a different viewpoint. As daddysprop pointed out, the women in the video never mention BDSM, D/s, or any other such label. They just obey their husbands and agree that he should be honored and in control. To me, that's essential to my definition of D/s..............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 11:27:02 AM

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Let's not dream here. Laura Doyle wrote 'Surrendered Wives' because she thought it would appeal to a certain segment of the 'self-help' book market.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with domination, submission. I quote the great author herself below:

quote:

Again this is not at all about submission. Submission has the root word "sub" in it which means below and that implies that one of you is inferior and the other one is superior. This is not about that - this is just about accepting the reality that you can't change anyone else.

And (replying to a woman who 'surrendered' for six years and deeply regretted it):

quote:

I am positive that she didn't do the same thing as I did. She may have been a doormat and viewed that as surrendering but it is absolutely not the same. There are five basic principles to surrendering. First you relinquish control of his life; then you respect his decisions for his life; you would practise good self-care - meaning you do at least three things a day for your own enjoyment; you have also got to practise receiving compliments graciously and finally you want to practise expressing gratitude - thanking your husband for the things he does.

So, girls, don't forget: get yourselves a new lipstick at least three times a week. Or a new dust flannel. Or even better! Treat yourselves to some new technology Tampax!

Basically, she decided a while ago to stop being a nag to her husband; it kind of worked for them (though I'd hate to see it live), and she thought "Wey hey, money money money!". And people fell for it. She even claims she is a feminist: BOOH! Naughty bitch!

Get over yourselves, ladies: this book ain't about submission. She cornered a piece of the market and wrapped it up nicely so that it would create a controversy.

Plus, she's got a bad hairdo.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/13/2007 11:28:02 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/13/2007 1:13:55 PM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Why do you or anyone else want to see what you do mirrored in what they do?
What is the benefit to you of doing this?

I don't "want to see" it mirrored. I simply do. As I've said all the way through this thread, whether or not these couples "identify" or label themselves as D/s or anything similiar doesn't mean that what they are doing isn't very similar to what D/s is for me. I don't see why anyone would have an issue with this being true for me.

quote:

By the way, this is the same question I'd have for someone in a different scene role looking at the vanilla world and saying "it's the same". And the same questions I ask when folks find "historical examples" of what they do now

Ok. I'm not sure I really understand this.

quote:

My questions are not specific to this video or to you as a person. I hope they are general questions to us all who do say "we do Ds" or "we do BDSM." They are questions I stop and ask myself when I am tempted to see what I do mirrored in other non-bdsm dynamics

Again, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying. Why is it somehow wrong or a problem seeing what you do mirrored in other dynamics? I don't see a problem with that at all. I'm interested in the points you've made here. If you get time, could you please give me some examples or clarify a bit more for me? Thanks much...............luci

I'll try to give you some examples. It is a very complicated issue in my mind so I apologize if I cannot make it completely clear online.

Much of the tools I use -- collar, floggers, chains, etc -- resemble instruments of torture and tools used in historical or institutional slavery. While the tools may be the same I think the motivations behind their use and the issue of consent are rather important.

Similar to what I agree is domination and submission in everyday life and what I do when I train a submissive or own a slave.

In the greater society there are people with authority who I can either submit to (police, firefighters, professors) or I can choose to ignore them and deal with the consequences. Aside from some elected authorities who I have only a small voice in choosing, these are positions that I have little control over. I obey because I either buy into the social agenda or because I fear the consequences or simply because do not realize there are other options.

A similar situation exists when someone is raised to take on a role because of sex, gender, age, race, or religion (and probably other reasons).

But when Fox submits to me, when he calls himself my slave, that was purely a matter of us choosing each other. In fact we choose in spite of the possible negative consequences some people fear.

To me this difference is of utmost importance -- free choice vs. standard or conditioned choice. The choice may feel "natural" but the realization is there that another way could have been selected. By owning someone who so freely choose to be mine, I feel a sense of empowerment that I find it hard to believe anyone could feel if the dynamic were standard and expected.

As a historian I just find attempts to see what we do reflected in the past annoying at best and enraging at worse. I know I'm a damned traditional historian though who really thinks we need to understand things in context and not import modern or cultural standards from outside.

I know some people want to find this similarities because it makes them feel better about what they are doing. Perhaps they think this validates what they do? I understand that not follow the social norm is scary but I wish everyone was strong enough to not need these vanilla and mundane and historical examples.

I'm sure a great deal of this is my personal bias, too.

I've had people approach me, male and female both since I'm bi, who say they were raised to be submissive or to be a slave. That triggers a gut level negative reaction in me perhaps because it reminds me of how I was raised (shudder).

Beyond that I also feel devalued as me when I'm approached this way. She/He wants to be submissive to me not because of me but because they were raised that way. Couldn't I be any one at that point?

Above all of this is my belief that BDSM is special, the bond between two (or more) people who do Ds or Ms is special and unique to that pair (or group). If what we do is really nothing more than what others in vanilla or mundane life do, why do we have this web site to post on? Why do we have munches? Why do we constantly worry and discuss issues of being out and legal threats? (the "we" here is generic)

This doesn't mean that we should or could live in isolation from the rest of the world. It also doesn't mean that non-kinky folks couldn't understand. They can understand; our friends do and even though I may be tempted to see some of their relationship dynamics as similar to ours I know from discussions that they would never see it as that plus usually their dynamics just happened over time.

Some people then look at the kink community and say "hey this is similar to us" and then accept the roles and the labels. More power to them to cross that line but I am deeply uncomfortable pushing them toward that line or simply identifying them as part of BDSM.

That was mighty rambling.

If you are GLLA, slaveluci, I'd love to talk about this more. Maybe my tone of voice and body language can clarify why this idea of self-identification and finding BDSM in the rest of the world is, well, a pet peeve of mine.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 5:44:39 AM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
But when Fox submits to me, when he calls himself my slave, that was purely a matter of us choosing each other. In fact we choose in spite of the possible negative consequences some people fear.

To me this difference is of utmost importance -- free choice vs. standard or conditioned choice. The choice may feel "natural" but the realization is there that another way could have been selected. By owning someone who so freely choose to be mine, I feel a sense of empowerment that I find it hard to believe anyone could feel if the dynamic were standard and expected

Ok. This makes total sense to me and I agree.

quote:

As a historian I just find attempts to see what we do reflected in the past annoying at best and enraging at worse. I know I'm a damned traditional historian though who really thinks we need to understand things in context and not import modern or cultural standards from outside

This also makes alot of sense.

quote:

I know some people want to find this similarities because it makes them feel better about what they are doing. Perhaps they think this validates what they do? I understand that not follow the social norm is scary but I wish everyone was strong enough to not need these vanilla and mundane and historical examples

I see your point here but I don't do this personally. I don't need to feel approved of, so to speak, about the M/s relationship I'm in. Though I often say here that validation is not a bad thing, I don't seek it in the sense of needing others to say my choice to submit is "ok." I know there are those who do.

quote:

I'm sure a great deal of this is my personal bias, too

Sure. As with all of us.

quote:

I've had people approach me, male and female both since I'm bi, who say they were raised to be submissive or to be a slave. That triggers a gut level negative reaction in me perhaps because it reminds me of how I was raised (shudder)

Yes. I can certainly understand your reaction to that. I think there's a major difference between saying you were "raised to be submissive" and, as daddysprop always says, that you have always felt naturally submissive. This is where the distinction comes in, I think, that you are making. It's all about being raised to know you have a CHOICE in whether or not to submit and I totally agree that should be the case.

quote:

Beyond that I also feel devalued as me when I'm approached this way. She/He wants to be submissive to me not because of me but because they were raised that way. Couldn't I be any one at that point?

Master says this alot. He would not have someone in His life who would be submissive to just anyone and everyone in all situations. As you said, to Him, that would devalue Him if just anyone could "fill the role," so to speak. I mean no offense by that. I'm just saying that's how He feels.

quote:

Above all of this is my belief that BDSM is special, the bond between two (or more) people who do Ds or Ms is special and unique to that pair (or group). If what we do is really nothing more than what others in vanilla or mundane life do, why do we have this web site to post on? Why do we have munches? Why do we constantly worry and discuss issues of being out and legal threats? (the "we" here is generic)

I don't know that it's "more than" what others do, but it is unique in many ways, of course.

quote:

Some people then look at the kink community and say "hey this is similar to us" and then accept the roles and the labels. More power to them to cross that line but I am deeply uncomfortable pushing them toward that line or simply identifying them as part of BDSM

Ok. This really makes things alot clearer now. I do understand what you're saying and, for the most part, do agree with all you've said.

quote:

That was mighty rambling.
If you are GLLA, slaveluci, I'd love to talk about this more. Maybe my tone of voice and body language can clarify why this idea of self-identification and finding BDSM in the rest of the world is, well, a pet peeve of mine

Not rambling at all, Tammyjo. I do appreciate you explaining because I really do understand where you are coming from a lot better now. Thank you for your patience and for taking the time to clarify. I do appreciate it

...........luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 7:17:04 AM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Not rambling at all, Tammyjo. I do appreciate you explaining because I really do understand where you are coming from a lot better now. Thank you for your patience and for taking the time to clarify. I do appreciate it...........luci

In all honestly all we can do online is keep asking each other questions and trying to explain things as best we can. I, personally, have barriers (such as dyslexia and history) that make this more difficult so I appreciate you asking and taking the time to read what I write.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 10:12:27 AM

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

I agree. You have to read the book to understand the difference betwen being dominated by him and simply throwing in the towel and letting him do whatever he wants, so you get more from him, this book is about the latter not the former.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Let's not dream here. Laura Doyle wrote 'Surrendered Wives' because she thought it would appeal to a certain segment of the 'self-help' book market.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with domination, submission. I quote the great author herself below:

quote:

Again this is not at all about submission. Submission has the root word "sub" in it which means below and that implies that one of you is inferior and the other one is superior. This is not about that - this is just about accepting the reality that you can't change anyone else.

And (replying to a woman who 'surrendered' for six years and deeply regretted it):

quote:

I am positive that she didn't do the same thing as I did. She may have been a doormat and viewed that as surrendering but it is absolutely not the same. There are five basic principles to surrendering. First you relinquish control of his life; then you respect his decisions for his life; you would practise good self-care - meaning you do at least three things a day for your own enjoyment; you have also got to practise receiving compliments graciously and finally you want to practise expressing gratitude - thanking your husband for the things he does.

So, girls, don't forget: get yourselves a new lipstick at least three times a week. Or a new dust flannel. Or even better! Treat yourselves to some new technology Tampax!

Basically, she decided a while ago to stop being a nag to her husband; it kind of worked for them (though I'd hate to see it live), and she thought "Wey hey, money money money!". And people fell for it. She even claims she is a feminist: BOOH! Naughty bitch!

Get over yourselves, ladies: this book ain't about submission. She cornered a piece of the market and wrapped it up nicely so that it would create a controversy.

Plus, she's got a bad hairdo.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 2:41:22 PM

Posts: 51
Joined: 7/17/2007
Status: offline

i just want to say *and no, i didnt read the whole post sorry* that too me it sounds less of a true give and take that bdsm is, and more of an act of a true co-dependant, in which case, they need help.

Again, i apologize if i repeated what was already said X_X

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 2:50:03 PM

Posts: 51
Joined: 7/17/2007
Status: offline

co-dependant, imho, meaning in this case, someone who is clinging to a relationship which, if both people were partners and equal, simply didnt work out, and are subverting their true personality (if these woman were submissives, they probably would have gone with a relationship with similar dynamics in the beginning *not all, but maybe some*) in order to not lose said relationship.

(in reply to MastersMaiden)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 2:54:18 PM

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Yes. It's about being artificially nice to men, not contradicting them or getting on their case, so that they feel like they're in control of their wives. It's pure manipulation: similar to training a dog, really. I think it's ugly.

_____________________________

(in reply to MastersMaiden)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 6:43:45 PM

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline

Gawwwwd I'm going to be SO sorry I did this... *sigh*... AWRIGHT then! <lowering my blast goggles and zipping up my body armor>

I've been having these same debates since I was about twelve... I'm 52 now. I *may* be the only poster on here so far who is old enough to have been actually raised when the precepts of "Surrendered Wives" didn't need a book, because they were the MASSIVE societal norms. I also hasten to add that I'm a DD, a Definite Deist. I also "personed" (who came up with that BS linguistic convention in the first damned place?) the barricades in the social street riots of the gender wars in the '70's and '80's. I suggest that those of you who have daughters but hate the way that women in this country gave one another the support to get up off their cultural knees go look up the term "pink collar ghetto" and be damned glad that by and large, your daughters don't need to fear being born into their lifelong economic lot. Yes, we screwed some things up BIG time. On another thread, I'll even list them and apologize for my own part in it if it sprinkles a little "good will dust" around here. I may be a dominant but I'm not stupid OR stiff-necked proud. However, I would also suggest that as in the modern iteration(s) of BDSM now, there was little to no road map, and we were having to draw the map while me made the road.

I *have* read the book, I *was* raised under its precepts. I was FORCED to take effin' home ec in junior high even though I could cook better than the instructor. I managed to live through it. As anyone who has ever bought a butt plug will quickly tell you, one size does NOT fit all. Of the six girls in my family, three are (how to say this nicely?) not supporters of these traditional precepts. Three are as conventional to the point of being programmed as anyone can imagine. All raised their children as they thought best and oddly enough, they ALL turned out to be fairly well adjusted, successful people.

Note I said "people". Not women, not men. We are people FIRST. Those among us who are fundamentalists raised good people and THEN good Christians and THEN good men and women. Those among us who weren't skipped the part about "good Christians" and paid a little more attention to the rest, since we didn't have a pattern to follow. We are all emotionally close and our children played, fought, laughed, yelled, hugged and punched each other in amorphous mobs, and their parents' in-home points of view got a pretty tough field testing. A well motivated parent does the best that the parent can do on the run with the goal of raising good kids. Children, as minor citizens, do not have the legal right to make choices. Adults do. Part of growing up is the excruciating exercise (and it's painful for both child AND parent) of holding up everything you were taught against your own inner yardstick and that of society at large, and deciding what to keep whole, what to keep modified, and what to discard. No matter where you start out in life, if you're much loved you find out eventually you're like a katydid: you crawl up as high as you can, and with much suffering and pain split the old skin you've known for 17 (or so) years, exposing your intense vulnerability as your new skin firms up, then you look around and discover that you have wings.

...and you spend the rest of your life making a lot of potentially meaningless noise. LOL

If these people want to profess the most... traditional, patriarchal... modes of living in their own homes, by all means do so. If you want to give your children gender neutral names and toys and so on, by all means do so. Be aware that in the end, your children will be whom they wish and were put on this earth to be, even if it takes right up until their second to last breath in this world to do it. In my experience, that's just the way life is. Anecdotal, I know. YMMV.

I wholy support the rights of every citizen to live his or her life in the manner that they find suits them best individually without at the same time threatening the rights and welfare of the whole. I also calmly, mostly quietly, and respectful of others feelings and POVs DEMAND the same support. I don't get it, but I'm not stopping and I'm not giving up hope either.

Oh... and if you find your now adult child sitting at my kitchen table or talking to me online? Please have the goodness to remember that just as my outlook may not prevail at your kitchen table, yours may not prevail at mine. And one of my house rules is that anybody who shows up needing to be fed or watered is welcome to stick his/her feet under the table at least once. Even if they don't agree with me. Sometimes ESPECIALLY if they don't agree with me.

(Heading out into the kitchen to make another pot of coffee and hoping I have enough clean cups to go around... but only in the very very DOMMELIEST of ways...

)

Jolielaide
"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted." Martin Luther King

(in reply to DedicatedDom40)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 7:26:22 PM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
You have to read the book to understand the difference betwen being dominated by him and simply throwing in the towel and letting him do whatever he wants, so you get more from him, this book is about the latter not the former

Hey BeingChewsie,
When you make that distinction, I totally agree. There is a huge difference between the video and the book, no doubt. Most of my posts have been based on the video including the most recent ones here. I see the behaviors in the video more as D/s, not necessarily what is discussed in the book.

I guess because (in the book) the women weren't "in charge," it is as if the men are dominant "by default," so to speak. I like the way you point that out. Good point

.........luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 8/14/2007 7:34:39 PM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jolielaide
your children will be whom they wish and were put on this earth to be, even if it takes right up until their second to last breath in this world to do it. In my experience, that's just the way life is..............

I wholy support the rights of every citizen to live his or her life in the manner that they find suits them best individually without at the same time threatening the rights and welfare of the whole. I also calmly, mostly quietly, and respectful of others feelings and POVs DEMAND the same support. I don't get it, but I'm not stopping and I'm not giving up hope either

......very nicely put, Jolielaide. I only quoted my favorite parts but it was all nice to read. Thanks..........luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to Jolielaide)

Page: << < prev 10 11 [12] 13 14 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Alternative Lifestyles in the News >> RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia

Page: << < prev 10 11 [12] 13 14 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

3.047