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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 9:58:20 AM

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Just a few comments...

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You are right, I was not exposed to the same cultural quirks as you, although I now live amongst them. I assure you that in other countries than the good old US of A it would be considered very odd indeed, not to say downright disturbing, if a woman called her husband by the name 'Daddy' - now, I'm not getting at those of us on this board that are into that for its own sake. I question the sanity of mixing up the roles and the family hierarchy. Of course, in the old days, some women used to call the father of their children by the name 'Daddy'; but why couldn't they have said 'your dad', or 'your father'? Think about the gender issues behind this instead of just accepting it point blank, simply because that's what you were used to. Trust me, many people think about these things; I'm not alone :-)

My Mom always called my Dad "Daddy." She still does, when referring to him. I called him Dad, or Daddy. I didn't him as anything other than her husband and my father. I'm not sure where you're reaching to come to the conclusion of mixing up the roles. Did your Mom call your Dad "Daddy" and it became confusing to you? If not, I don't see your basis.

As for other countries, when I observed my aunts & uncles in Spain referring to each other, no they did not say "Daddy", they said Papa'. Funny though, the husbands referred to their wives as Mama'. No one seemed disturbed this this - it was normal.

quote:

It is our duty, as women, to ensure that our personal rights and those of our sisters and daughters aren't eroded by the backlash against feminism which has been occurring in this country for well over 20 years.

I have no such duty. Not everyone believes this way and some women actually found the feminist movement to be detrimental. Go figure. It is my duty to serve my Master.

However, if you wish to preserve the women's movement, be glad that such a movement allowed women the freedom to live as they choose - even if it is surrendered.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 10:00:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Just what I feared: you are a naughty, outspoken, mouthy submissive you doesn't know her place. Otherwise, you wouldn't have argued back, would you!

Yep, that's me

.

quote:

More seriously, it seems that you are far too happy feeling insulted by my general antipathy towards Lowrat Boyle's mockery of a book. It's obvious by now that you are one of these people that enjoy getting irrate: but that's of no interest to me.

Believe me, Kittensol, I'm not happy about being insulted (not feeling, being). If you hate her book and the concepts in it, that's cool. But can you at least not admit that you SEE my point of how someone living the way she proposes could possibly be bothered by having the whole concept dismissed as sick and wrong. You're far too intelligent NOT to see that. I don't enjoy being irate. It bothers me to argue but it bothers me more not to speak out when I feel the principles I support and happily live by have been trashed. That's all I'm sayin'..............slave luci

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(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 10:07:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
GASP! So... I can have the opinion I like but I have to shut up about it?]

Yeah, kittenSol, that's EXACTLY what I said

. And you say I'm the one here who likes to argue? LOL.

quote:

How tolerant of you, luci. You just shot your own argument in the foot.

I never said you have to shut up about anything and you know it. I said expressing your opinion is one thing but expressing it as fact for everyone and expecting others to live by it is entirely different. I have done nothing but fight for the concept of tolerance on this thread. Nowhere have I said you can't think as you do. I have simply said don't assume that all the rest of us agree or think it's wrong to live as we do. I didn't shoot my own argument in the foot because my own argument is to BE tolerant. So you find it sick, wrong, and creepy? Bully for you. I don't. I've spent pages defending my right and the right of others to live in a way you think is sick, wrong, and creepy. I'm not the intolerant one here and if you can't see that, I don't how else to explain it........slave luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 6/24/2007 10:15:12 AM >

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 10:12:20 AM

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Never said anything about denying somebody's freedom.

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 10:12:50 AM

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quote:

I have no such duty. Not everyone believes this way and some women actually found the feminist movement to be detrimental. Go figure. It is my duty to serve my Master.
However, if you wish to preserve the women's movement, be glad that such a movement allowed women the freedom to live as they choose - even if it is surrendered.

Amen, ownedgirlie. That's what is so often forgotten. Feminist dogma seems to insist that now that all us womenfolks' is so free, we can't possibly freely choose to live our lives any damn way we please - even if it IS "surrendered" or "submissive." As good little feminists, we must obey the feminist leaders who will dictate how our relationships should go. And God knows, they all have successful marriages

. Thank you for saying it so well!!!!........slave (and anti-feminist) luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 6/24/2007 10:16:15 AM >

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 10:15:50 AM

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As a feminist, I feel insulted by your anti-feminist stance.

You are a very naughty girl.

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 10:19:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
As a feminist, I feel insulted by your anti-feminist stance.
You are a very naughty girl.

.......ok, then here's a disclaimer: "Though I personally am anti-feminist, I support and encourage all other individuals to form and live by their own decisions on the matter. If they choose to support the feminist cause, I fully support their right to do so." There, is that any less naughty?

. Thanks for the smile............slave luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 6/24/2007 10:20:59 AM >

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 11:56:08 AM

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i am still befuddled by what is immoral, regarding the um's in that video clip. i would be the first one in line to protect any um that was being abused, but i did not see one single thing out of line as far as those ums protrayed were concerend. The people who claime to say they see abuse should spell it out - or is it based soley on the fact the woman used the term "daddy", if so then i know a LOT of women who are abusers, as well as myself!

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 12:19:21 PM

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I have to agree with Boucanier. I may find these woman a bit...odd. But that doesn't mean that this doesn't work for them. Is it for me, no.

I haven't read the book, and wonder how well these few women represented themselves and their ideals. I would be hard pressed to explain what I was about in under three minutes (and that is about the time each family had on camera)

They believe they're happy let them be.

*here's my two pennies*

(in reply to Boucanier)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 12:35:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mindygal
I haven't read the book, and wonder how well these few women represented themselves and their ideals. I would be hard pressed to explain what I was about in under three minutes

No kidding. Not to mention they were on camera and probably nervous, esp. knowing how many people would probably see what they're doing in a very negative light.......slave luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 6/24/2007 12:38:55 PM >

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 2:40:52 PM

patwi

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OK...I'm confused here. I admit...I'm brand new to this BDSM thing, I still have no idea where I stand in it all. But...isn't the point of being submissive this exact same thing? Giving total control to someone else?

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 2:48:29 PM

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Briefly,

Many people will tell you that being submissive does not equate with giving up total control. I'd say only a small percentage of D/s couples are involved in total power exchange (TPE, or APE) relationships.

Stephan

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 3:39:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

I have no such duty. Not everyone believes this way and some women actually found the feminist movement to be detrimental. Go figure. It is my duty to serve my Master.
However, if you wish to preserve the women's movement, be glad that such a movement allowed women the freedom to live as they choose - even if it is surrendered.

Amen, ownedgirlie. That's what is so often forgotten. Feminist dogma seems to insist that now that all us womenfolks' is so free, we can't possibly freely choose to live our lives any damn way we please - even if it IS "surrendered" or "submissive." As good little feminists, we must obey the feminist leaders who will dictate how our relationships should go. And God knows, they all have successful marriages. Thank you for saying it so well!!!!........slave (and anti-feminist) luci

It's great to choose what you want to do -- please remember that in large part that is what feminism won for you. It's like women such as Schaffly who actively worked against the ERA --guess who made it possible for her to even have a voice in the that discussion? All those feminists she hated. Or women who say no female could possible be president and they would never vote for one -- and how did you get the right to vote? People worked for that, both men and women, worked for that, they are often called first wave feminists.

I have a great problem though when others work to undermine feminism even if it is on the level of raising a child to believe there is only one way to be a particular sex or gender. I'd have the exact same problem if it was a matter of race or religion or ethnic group too.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/24/2007 3:40:57 PM >

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(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 4:20:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Households like those in this clip raise offspring to deny themselves meaning that a son who felt a natural drive to be submissive would be repeatedly told it was wrong, a daughter who felt a natural drive to be dominant would get the same treatment; woe to those who may have egalitarian inclinations. A woman (or man) who takes on a social role that does not mesh with their personality or their natural inclinations will be unhappy and I'm betting that unhappiness will affect those around them.

Exactly my feelings.

I can surrender to Valyraen all I want, but I have the duty to my daughter to teach her that she can have, no should have, whatever kind of relationship she wants. If she doesn't want to surrender then damn it, she doesn't have to.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 4:23:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
It's great to choose what you want to do -- please remember that in large part that is what feminism won for you. It's like women such as Schaffly who actively worked against the ERA --guess who made it possible for her to even have a voice in the that discussion? All those feminists she hated. Or women who say no female could possible be president and they would never vote for one -- and how did you get the right to vote? People worked for that, both men and women, worked for that, they are often called first wave feminists.

I really do agree with you, tammyjo. It was pretty tongue-in-cheek when I said "anti-feminist." I was just trying to emphasize the point that ownedgirlie made. It has always amazed me when rabid feminists attempt to dictate to women that, now that we don't have to be "surrendered" or "submissive," that we never should be. It always reminded me of the time I spent managing a domestic violence shelter. Women would come in who seemed to have no right to choose in matters at home and, in the course of trying to empower them, certain staff members thought the way to do that was to basically tell them the "right" choices to make. I always find that very ironic. She came to us with no real personal power and in the course of "helping" her, we decide what's "best" for her? Kind of reminds me of feminists who would "help" me be empowered. No thanks - I'll handle it myself

. But, I'm very aware, as you noted, that I am able to handle it myself due to the work of "feminist" women before me.

quote:

I have a great problem though when others work to undermine feminism even if it is on the level of raising a child to believe there is only one way to be a particular sex or gender. I'd have the exact same problem if it was a matter of race or religion or ethnic group too.

I see your point but if these women (and I) choose to live in this type of relationship, how are we "undermining feminism?" We are empowered to make our own choices and we do - even if they don't fit other peoples molds of what is acceptable. I would think any feminist worth her salt would encourage individual women to follow the path that's best for them even if it is against popular mores................slave luci

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 4:26:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Exactly my feelings.
I can surrender to Valyraen all I want, but I have the duty to my daughter to teach her that she can have, no should have, whatever kind of relationship she wants. If she doesn't want to surrender then damn it, she doesn't have to.

Absolutely. I agree. Just as these women (and myself if I ever have a daughter) have the duty to teach their daughter that if she wants to surrender then damn it, she can without being told she's oppressed, abused, and a poor role model......luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 5:00:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Exactly my feelings.
I can surrender to Valyraen all I want, but I have the duty to my daughter to teach her that she can have, no should have, whatever kind of relationship she wants. If she doesn't want to surrender then damn it, she doesn't have to.

Absolutely. I agree. Just as these women (and myself if I ever have a daughter) have the duty to teach their daughter that if she wants to surrender then damn it, she can without being told she's oppressed, abused, and a poor role model......luci

Correct.

But what are they teaching them? That they don't have to submit, that they can be world leaders, that they can control in their relationships or equal relationships? Are these kings of the house teaching their sons that they can submit to their future wives if they want to?

Or are they paying lip service to the idea and actually teaching them that only a male dominant/female submissive relationship is acceptable?

To be quite fair, none of us actually know since we aren't those families. But I know that if a woman keeps telling her daughter how her father is king of the house and how happy marriages are made by only female surrender, there is a message being sent. And it's one that I, personally, can not approve of.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 5:07:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
To be quite fair, none of us actually know since we aren't those families. But I know that if a woman keeps telling her daughter how her father is king of the house and how happy marriages are made by only female surrender, there is a message being sent. And it's one that I, personally, can not approve of.

You are so right in that we don't know. I will say this to you, Aquatic. In my eyes, you have shown much class and respect for others in your responses here. For someone who obviously disagrees with how things appear in those marriages, you never even hinted at the fact that they are sick or wrong or shouldn't be permitted to live as they please. That's more than I can say for most folks. Thank you............luci

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 5:14:20 PM

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If that is how they live their lives and they are not ashamed of it why shouldn't they raise their kids in any fashion they want? Who is anyone to judge how their children should be raised?

Actually folks i am playing devils advocate here because this was the line of BS that was posted on another thread when i was outraged um's (10 and 12 yrs) were exposed to impact toys and their parents living an open fetish lifestyle ie: they saw mama getting her ass whippled by daddy, amongst other things. Everyone jumped me for dare i call what happened abuse. i find it so ironic that on this end of the spectrum people see a mere word "daddy" as abuse or even the fact that they want to raise the kids with fundamental values like "dads the boss" as an outrage.

If i had to choose which house to raise a healthier child in by far this one wins hands over in my book. But personally i wouldn't raise my own um's in either fashion.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 6/24/2007 5:15:36 PM >

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/24/2007 5:32:06 PM

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I, personally, think there is a difference between raising your children in a way that limits their chances at healthy relationships (ie. "You can't have an equal standing in a relationship because your gender is superior/inferior/should always submit/should always be in charge") and living an open fetish lifestyle where children are exposed to what you mention.

If forced to choose which to raise a child in by Valyraen, I would probably choose not to have a child because I don't know which is better. I find both unacceptable, even if they are different. I couldn't call this child abuse, but I would consider it very similiar, if not exactly the same, as teaching them that a particular race should always be in charge.

It's a complicated issue. Hopefully the children will be exposed to the world outside of the family unit enough that they will realize that other options are around, and that they can make their own choices. Be it to follow the example set by their parents or have a different power dynamic.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to velvetears)

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