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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:53:53 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FaramirTrue masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

Love your sig line!

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:54:35 PM

PeggyO

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Hello,

Here is where your error in logic applies. Kicking and punching someone is very controllable. It's a fine motor skill. If someone is trained how to control their body, they can control their punches and their kicks in the same way that a ballet dancer can control how high their leg goes, with what force it is extended, etc. Take a look at a skilled martial artist - I guarantee they know how to pull a punch and how to control the amount of force they exert.

To assume that kicking and punching is uncontrollable is simply not accurate.

How can a Master control the scene? By their skill at controlling their own body.

Take care,

Peggy

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im just wondering how a Master can controll such an uncontrollable thing such as punching and kicking someone. And if they cant controll it then they are not in controll of the scene and there for I dont really see it as an act a Master could really do. Just my opinion but I think a Master should be in controll of everything he does during a scene and this just does not scream controlled to me.

Magik's slave

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

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Post #: 122

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:02:38 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

In a non-pregnant healthy woman (i.e. not having fibroid tumors in the uterus to enlarge it), the uterus barely crests the pubic symphysis, if at all. For most non-pregnant women, you have to press firmly into the abdomen and down behind the pubic symphysis to touch the uterus. The ovaries are typically posterior and lateral to the uterus and therefore protected from any blows to the abdomen.

My mistake, then. I seemed to recall a proper punch could damage the kidneys, and those are, IIRC, about as far posterior as you get. As I've said, with this, I've just been going with what I've been told, on the grounds of "better safe than sorry". Any source on the impact required to cause damage would be appreciated.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 123

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:02:41 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy
W/we are discussing punching in the erotic/scening sense, are We saying the hand is in the closed fist and is full force type of punching? thats the only way i can describe it, but im open to the perception that the word punching may actually be misleading???

To punch is to strike with a closed fist. To kick is to strike with the foot. Neither indicates the force that is used with the hand or foot.

Nor does it Indicate the motivation that the Punch or the Kick was thrown in the first place....

And so far in this thread... I haven't seen it point out that Motivation is a Prime consideration for any BDSM type activity. Be it punching, kicking, flogging, caning etc. What is the persons motivations that are involved in the scene. There is Negative Violence and there is Positive Violence.. and yes.. BDSM is a Postive Violent act. Like mmmm Boxing, Martial Arts etc etc... and yes.. BDSM doesn't have to be Sexual... for some it is and for some it isn't and for some it can be one or the other depending on a variety of things.

Of course... in Boxing, BDSM the Positive Violence can turn Negative.. it's a risk.. not much of one but a risk.

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Post #: 124

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:08:06 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
"OK, there's only one chocolate chip cookie left...you girls battle it out and see who gets it!"

I can just picture Alandra and I in that situation...

A - Do you want the cookie?
K - Do you want it??
A - Only if you don't want it
K - Well, I don't want it so you take it...
A - Are you sure? Because I could eat something else...

And on and on it would go until he would say "I'll eat the damn cookie myself!!"

LOL

I can't picture Alandra and I fighting over something even in play *g*

Knight's Kyra

CHOCOLATE CHIP? hell what makes you think you two will even get a chance to offer it to each other... silly girl

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:08:29 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
Im just wondering how a Master can controll such an uncontrollable thing such as punching and kicking someone. And if they cant controll it then they are not in controll of the scene and there for I dont really see it as an act a Master could really do. Just my opinion but I think a Master should be in controll of everything he does during a scene and this just does not scream controlled to me.

Um....where in the world did you get the idea that no one can control their arms or legs well enough to deliver a precise amount of force to a calculated target? If that was true, then no one could safely deliver a paddling or a spanking either. Heck, I wouldn't give good odds that someone who had that little control over their limbs could run anywhere without tripping.

Rough body play and stuntfighting are the same basic skill set. Anyone can learn this skill set. It involves knowing how to pull blows, calculate where you're hitting and generally make a lot of noise and surface impact without causing your partner any damage. I use this skill set in sports (specifically medieval recreation and boffer larp swordfighting) and occasionally in rough body play scenes. Control and precision are very definitely involved.

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Post #: 126

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:10:16 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
The answer to "when does punching your sub/slave in the stomach or anywhere become an acceptable BDSM past time?" is "Whenever those two consesnting adults choose to."

Amen to that.

DITTO

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:12:05 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

There is a huge difference in punching the stomach of a trained boxer who has well developed, rock-hard abs who gets punched in them repeatedly every time he trains, as opposed to a submissive

Yup there is.. and so is the force that one would use in the punch as well.

it's not rocket science

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:19:00 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I think this is one of those things that really pushes people to think past social contigencies.

In a logical and objective train of thought, there is absolutely zero difference between using a bullwhip, a hard cane or a solid paddle to inflict pain verse the human fist.

However, culturally, we've been taught to associate punching someone as abuse. Personally, despite my own logical approach to this, as I read the posts about male doms punching female subs, images of a drunken redneck in a wife beater abusing his wife with his fist pop into my head.

I think people make that connection between punching and domestic abuse as opposed to the paddle, whip, or cane that arent automatically associated with it.

I view this really as just another hurdle to get past...much like the first hurdle many people had to get past regarding associating S/M and leather with a bunch of sexed crazied leather psychopaths.

great post... and cuts to the heart of the OP's prejudices of this type of play.. Unfortunately. one can't get beyond such prejudices with a closed-minded. Sometimes to Open a closed Mind takes a Hammer.. and this was one of them.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:20:10 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

I was waiting for commotio cordis to show up.

Kind of inevitable with a mention of punching the sternum.

quote:

The fact is that you have to hit in a very exact location at exactly the right moment during the heartbeat with a certain velocity and a certain density of the object.

As I recall, the exactness of the location just improves the odds of causing it.
I could certainly be wrong, though, I'm not a cardiologist or anything.
Apart from that, I'd assume it's a question of impact and timing.

I got the impression 1-in-40 was accurate, given a hard punch in the right area.
And an untrained person can generate about 80 J, if memory serves.

quote:

If commotio cordis were even a statistical risk, it would be reflected in dojos and boxing rings. It's not.

I don't have any of those statistics, so I couldn't comment on them.

I will say, however, that the martial arts I've been interested in over the years do not punch the sternum unless the intent is to compress the entire cavity and preferrably break the join near the top of the sternum. Doing either requires a lot more force than you'd usually direct at a sparring partner.

quote:

Out of curiosity, can anyone document a case of commotio cordis arising from a chest punch?

Define document. I don't have the charts and journals.
Someone from this school took a punch he shouldn't have.
The guy on the receiving end was open and not paying attention.

Obviously, you don't get an opening like that most of the time, and the uke did the silly thing: he went for it.

The tori collapsed, and I don't recall how it went from there.
I do recall that the doc said he had gone into fibrillation, though.
And that there was debris from his sternum around his pericardium.

Not representative for what you'd see during play, though, I hope.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:21:16 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im just wondering how a Master can controll such an uncontrollable thing such as punching and kicking someone.

There is nothing uncontrollable about punching and kicking.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:23:51 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

Just to clarify...this occured years ago in a social setting with a group of friends, not during a scene. I happened to just be in the wrong space at the wrong time and it was unintentional. My point was that I found it arousing to be hit, not specifically the location I was hit in, but the act itself.

I was just pointing out that I'd suggest going for the celiac plexus if you decide to try it for fun. It delivers the goods.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:24:00 PM

Faramir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: FaramirTrue masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

Love your sig line!

I've been to GenCon three times and Winter Fantasy twice, so I know the type--oh wait, I am the type.

Holy crap, while typing this out I couldn't control my limbs--I smashed my chair, broke my own femur and smashed my hand through the keyb~...

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:24:11 PM

beltainefaerie

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I've been finding this thread fascinating. I have seen a punching seen briefly once, but mostly had a chance to talk to the girl afterwards. It was an interogation scene and I couldn't watch it very long. She adored being punched in the breasts and stomach and found it incredibly hot. It looked like violence to me, but, hey, I used to think I would never enjoy being slapped and in point of fact Master can sometimes make me come just by doing that. Maybe I will understand it someday, or maybe it just gets to be something other people enjoy, but whichever it is, if it is consentual it isn't abuse.

< Message edited by beltainefaerie -- 7/4/2007 8:32:34 PM >

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:25:27 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: FaramirTrue masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

Love your sig line!

I've been to GenCon three times and Winter Fantasy twice, so I know the type--oh wait, I am the type.

Holy crap, while typing this out I couldn't control my limbs--I smashed my chair, broke my own femur and smashed my hand through the keyb~...

AAAAGGGHHH!!!

I keep punching the wall and I cant stop!

Someone help me...please!

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Post #: 135

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:31:42 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I've been to GenCon three times and Winter Fantasy twice, so I know the type--oh wait, I am the type.

You are? Cool. That means there's one more person on this forum I need to nag about RP stuff.

(Speaking of which, I'm missing a reply from you. Something about rhetoric. Care to PM me?)

quote:

Holy crap, while typing this out I couldn't control my limbs--I smashed my chair, broke my own femur and smashed my hand through the keyb~...

~rofl~

I'll admit I usually find your posts a bit more confrontational than my preference, but this one had me laughing so bad my side still hurts.

Seems kinky punching can hurt the spleen, after all.
At least discussing it can; just ask mine.
I think it just burst.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:33:17 PM

Faramir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

There is a huge difference in punching the stomach of a trained boxer who has well developed, rock-hard abs who gets punched in them repeatedly every time he trains, as opposed to a submissive who is probably restrained in some way, hasn't done a sit-up in years and who isn't expecting the blow coming.

Obviously.
But you are also neglecting an important bit.
The dominant in question, one hopes, will not be punching in the same way a boxer will.

Are you kidding dude? When I hit a girl in the stomach, I don't mess with any stright right crap. I'm cross-stepping, low, angle-iron arm and throwing a hook with full explosion from the hip, tight and in a close arc, and with every bit of strength and explosive power I have in my 203lb body. In addition to doing strength, hypertophy and fat-loss protocols I do an explosive/power protocol, plus my routines are modelled on homind movements, one of the seven being twist, so I can really get some high end kinetic energy going.

Why do I it? Because I have abusive agression issues I can't control, and I mask it with a BDSM facade.

HAHAHHAHHAHHAHAH!

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

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Post #: 137

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:38:52 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

I have found this a really fascinating thread. It has made me aware of yet another prejudice I didn't realise I had. I always tell newcomers to play parties, "If you see something you don't like, look away, it may look icky to you, but it's all consensual and they are enjoying it - keep your opinions to yourself." But I now realise that if I'd come across such a scene unawares, I might have ignored my own advice.

I am reminded of the first time Master and I played at a party. We'd gone "just to look" and had no equipment. All the cool stuff was just too tempting, so Master tied me to a frame, took off his belt and laid into me. We freaked everyone out and the DM's nearly stopped the scene as they didn't know us well enough to judge if it was OK or not.

Lesson 1: Warn the DM's if you're going to play in this sort of way.
Lesson 2: There's always something you haven't seen or heard of before that may catch you on the blind side and reveal "hot spots" you didn't know you had.

:))
LH

Your post reminded me of an incident that happen about 4-5 years ago. It was at a Local Public Play party. Alandra over heard the organizer tell all the DM's that we are to be completely left alone. It was understood by some in the community at that time that what I do is was more than most can deal with.. including DMs. It has come back to be time and time again of people that have left the room etc because they couldn't deal with what I do in my scenes. But, many more can't advert their eyes from it and I get comments from time to time. Even online. I was at a small party in Niagara Falls and months later I crossed paths with someone that was there. At that party I beat Kyra bloody with a barbeque brush. She told me that she was both scared and amazed at the same time and maybe even alittle shocked.

I personally think it does people good to get out to Play parties. Maybe not to play.. but to see and expand their own minds to the possibilities. Also, instead of being shocked and afraid.. after such a scene.. go and talk to the people with an open-minded. Just tell them their play scared the crap out of you. You might not realize it.. but you need AFTERCARE! It might do some good to go and talk them and ask for alittle reassurance that everything is ok. You don't have to be blunt about it... I can't tell you how many times individuals have come to talk discreetly with the girls and get a measure that they are ok. I smile at both their shocked looks to find out they are more than ok... but happy too. I also smile because there mind as openned alittle as well.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:42:55 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

I have also been the demo bottom for more than one kicking and punching workshop. A few folks who read these boards may have been to those workshops and seen me get gut-punched more than once.

I am not one that can say that I been to one of these workshops... but I have been in a couple venues that this kind of stuff happen to this Lovely Woman. She speaks with alot knowledge and understanding on this issue.. take my support for her words for what it's worth..

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:48:19 PM

Faramir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
AAAAGGGHHH!!!

I keep punching the wall and I cant stop!

Someone help me...please!

OMFG I am dying here in hysterics.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

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Post #: 140