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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:57:20 PM   
MistressDoMe


Posts: 295
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		I am glad I am not a submissive.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:00:44 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: callofzion

This topic seems to have stirred up a great deal of controversy. I suggest that we resolve it by punching each other in the stomach. I'll take Faramir first, then move on to the rest of you. Please form an orderly line, no pushing, no shoving, though smashing each other in the face will be an acceptable form of line jumping.


Can I bring a naginata, katana, or at least a knife?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to callofzion)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:06:51 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

in the stomach and anywhere else except my head, a current limit he's placed on himself


Far be it from me to interfere, but I'd suggest avoiding the sternum, clavicles and kidneys, too.

quote:

it's either a matter of punishment [...] or a matter of him needing the physical release, after a stressful day or period in his life, beating me to ease the tension and bring him back down to a place of calm and peace.


For me, I don't think that would work, but if it does for him, that's great.

Personally, I prefer a heavy bag.

It doesn't get injured or killed, which a human would, the way I treat the bags.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:06:57 PM   
LadyHeart


Posts: 561
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have found this a really fascinating thread. It has made me aware of yet another prejudice I didn't realise I had. I always tell newcomers to play parties, "If you see something you don't like, look away, it may look icky to you, but it's all consensual and  they are enjoying it - keep your opinions to yourself." But I now realise that if I'd come across such a scene unawares, I might have ignored my own advice.

I am reminded of the first time Master and I played at a party. We'd gone "just to look" and had no equipment. All the cool stuff was just too tempting, so Master tied me to a frame, took off his belt and laid into me. We freaked everyone out and the DM's nearly stopped the scene as they didn't know us well enough to judge if it was OK or not.

Lesson 1: Warn the DM's if you're going to play in this sort of way.
Lesson 2: There's always something you haven't seen or heard of before that may catch you on the blind side and reveal "hot spots" you didn't know you had.

:))
LH

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(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:07:17 PM   
Pleasur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: krista

Greetings...

All play at these events are closely monitored by Dungeon Masters..and as this couple were very experienced ...as a long term couple..i imagine they were less scrutinized..




There are a lot of bottoms and submissives who assume that anything their top/dom does in a public dungeon is okay, because if it wasn't the DM would stop it.  But one thing I've noticed is DMs are many times reluctant to stop a scene, especially when "regulars" are involved.

But in DM training that I've been involved with, you learn that if you as a DM are uncomfortable with a scene -- i.e., someone punching a pregnant woman -- or anyone for that matter -- in the stomach or anywhere else that could cause internal bleeding -- you as the DM are obligated to stop the scene.   That's the theory.  If only it were that way in practice.



(in reply to krista)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:07:37 PM   
PeggyO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

[
That's pretty close to where the sternum meets the manubrium, and it is also close enough to the heart to pose an unnecessary risk. As for the latter, I'm not talking about direct injury, that takes force beyond what a "sane" person would bring to bear during play, but if the timing of the hit is just right (or, really, wrong), you get what is known as commotio cordis, which can put you directly into ventricular fibrillation.

I know the risks are small, but quite often, when you hear of someone collapsing during a sports event and dying, while they were perfectly fit, that's this mechanism at work. If a hit strikes during the ascending phase of the T-wave with sufficient force, the rythm of the heart is disturbed, causing sudden death.

About one in fourty hits- with sufficient force- to this area will cause cardiac arrest.

Compare this with one in six hundred unprotected intercourses with HIV-positive individuals leading to infection.

quote:



Hello,

I was waiting for commotio cordis to show up.  There has been some speculation about this - including an article written that, unfortunately contained incorrect information about commotio cordis.

The fact is that you have to hit in a very exact location at exactly the right moment during the heartbeat with a certain velocity and a certain density of the object.  Commotio cordis usually results in young men as a result of being hit by an object travelling at great velocity, such as a hockey puck or a baseball.  If commotio cordis were even a statistical risk, it would be reflected in dojos and boxing rings.  It's not.  Out of curiosity, can anyone document a case of commotio cordis arising from a chest punch?

Thank you,

Peggy O

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:11:41 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Im just wondering how a Master can controll such an uncontrollable thing such as punching and kicking someone. And if they cant controll it then they are not in controll of the scene and there for I dont really see it as an act a Master could really do. Just my opinion but I think a Master should be in controll of everything he does during a scene and this just does not scream controlled to me.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:14:18 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy


Am i being naive? i dont think so but whats the Master's/Sir's/Doms take on this one?


NOPE... just incredibly Close-Minded

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Domspaintoy)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:19:21 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy


Exactly. Its unsafe and i cant see how it could ever be made a safe thing to do.



Well of course you can't see how it could ever be made a safe thing to do... Close-Minded individuals tend to have a learning/understanding problem that prohibits there ability to comprehend new thoughts and ideas.

quote:


Areflectionofyou, Thanks i didnt know there was even a name for it.


yeah.,.. It's called Punching and Kicking.... gosh novel concept uh?!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Domspaintoy)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:25:06 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

There is a huge difference in punching the stomach of a trained boxer who has well developed, rock-hard abs who gets punched in them repeatedly every time he trains, as opposed to a submissive who is probably restrained in some way, hasn't done a sit-up in years and who isn't expecting the blow coming.


Obviously.
But you are also neglecting an important bit.
The dominant in question, one hopes, will not be punching in the same way a boxer will.

I've been punched at an upward angle to the celiac plexus with no clenching of the stomach muscles, and no indication the blow was coming. Sure, it "hurts", and it knocks the wind out of you, but it takes one heck of a blow to actually do damage, unless you are punching through the abdomen, and if you have enough skill to do that, you also have enough skill (and wits) not to do anything like that.

quote:

Ever hear of an organ called the spleen? They can rupture without a whole lot of impact. And you can bleed to death from a ruptured spleen.


Quite familiar with the spleen. It is superior, sinister and dorsal to just about anything you might want to punch in the abdomen, regardless of the reasons for punching. If one does manage to rupture it, however, that will indeed require a visit to the hospital, and a splenectomy may well be required, which usually doesn't have serious long-term consequences, apart from the medical bills.

But, by all means, as I said, punching or kicking any part of the human body should only be done with risk-awareness, proper consent, and ideally the skill required to limit the risk involved. Much like any kind of BDSM play.

I wouldn't want anyone whipping someone without knowing enough to avoid the neck, either...


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:29:05 PM   
Aileen68


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

[...] I was punched unintentionally [...] right between my breasts.


Don't do that.

That's pretty close to where the sternum meets the manubrium, and it is also close enough to the heart to pose an unnecessary risk. As for the latter, I'm not talking about direct injury, that takes force beyond what a "sane" person would bring to bear during play, but if the timing of the hit is just right (or, really, wrong), you get what is known as commotio cordis, which can put you directly into ventricular fibrillation.

I know the risks are small, but quite often, when you hear of someone collapsing during a sports event and dying, while they were perfectly fit, that's this mechanism at work. If a hit strikes during the ascending phase of the T-wave with sufficient force, the rythm of the heart is disturbed, causing sudden death.

About one in fourty hits- with sufficient force- to this area will cause cardiac arrest.

Compare this with one in six hundred unprotected intercourses with HIV-positive individuals leading to infection.

quote:

Not super hard, but hard enough to knock the wind out of me for about 30 seconds.


Strike the celiac plexus instead, at a slightly upward angle. A light (by my reckoning) punch will knock the wind out of you for at least 30 seconds, and be more shocking. A heavy punch will leave you on the ground, unable to breathe properly, for about two minutes. Speaking from experience, those also count as shocking...

quote:

It has the potential of being a turn on for me.


By all means. But I'd recommend asking an OB-GYN doc about how to avoid any risk of damage to the internal reproductive organs first. And asking about the right angle to deliver a "pulse" to the celiac plexus would also be advisable.



Just to clarify...this occured years ago in a social setting with a group of friends, not during a scene.  I happened to just be in the wrong space at the wrong time and it was unintentional.  My point was that I found it arousing to be hit, not specifically the location I was hit in, but the act itself.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:31:45 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Not My bag but I know 'punch play' is enjoyed by some. Normaly restricted to shoulders, arms, legs etc where there is no chance of internal injury.


actually there is a chance to internal injury.. just an extremely low chance and also it's not likely going to cause any damage to Internal Organs.  Of course.. if one does... well they are likely idiots.  Punching and Kicking is actually very easy to do... and takes alot less skill to do well than using floggers, canes, whips and some other toys.   Frankly... aside from personal preference for not doing punching or kicking type plays... I have alot of reservations of some says that they don't do punching and kicking because it's unsafe and they do cane, flogging, whipping etc.  If they think punching/kicking is unsafe for them.. then they better put all their toys down.

quote:


belly punching' is something again I know enjoyed by some, though not by anyone I know personaly and carries a MUCH higher risk of actual harm/possible FATAL injurys.


no it carries with it a more serious consequence if done improperly...  but that doesn't make it a higher risk.  It's like anything 

In fact.. if one punches the Shoulder with the same consideration as they punch the belly.. then it would be the same risk.  In other words.. one considers that the shoulders can withstand a certain degree of force.. beyond that it is going to be harmful... same logic with the belly... consider the force one hits which will not cause harm to the belly area.  Besides force.. one also needs to consider preparedness of the person recieving the punch or kick.  One who is ready to recieve it would be able to withstand far more force than one who is unprepared.  Then you also must consider experience in recieving such a hit as well.


gosh this isn't rocket science.... 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:33:02 PM   
sadisticmaster11


Posts: 21
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline 		punching is quite the turn on as it is one of the ultimate forms of control.  some females who know they need it work hard to get it and get pissed when the Male wont do it.

(in reply to Aileen68)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:34:18 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy

its just unsafe practice in my opinion and who in these instances who stops this kind of play when all involved think its ok?

dpt.


No one stops it silly... Because it is OK. 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Domspaintoy)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:41:40 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I've stopped answering, the OP because it would seem that none of the points I have made have been read or understood rather prefering to engage in the flame war than actually discuss the matter at hand.


Sorry to hear that. Please know that I have read and appreciated your contributions.

quote:

But Mad Rabbit that point is one of the draws for this kind of play on the emotional level. Playing with the images of abuse busting through the idea that it must be abuse if they use fists and kicks, can be a very freeing thing for the Top and the bottom both.


I can definitely see that.

It also has an element of "facing up to" what you're doing.
When implements are involved, it is pretty much sanitized, in a way.
No western civilization still uses canes and whips for torture or discipline.
Thus, it is easy to dissociate these from what they actually are and represent.
But punching and kicking is still part of western culture, and used as it always has been.

I think that's part of where it pushes people's buttons.

It involves actually facing the facts; all the stuff about safety is just window dressing.

Most people avoid punching and kicking because they can no longer tell themselves that this is "just" play, because they have a visceral and moral context surrounding the use of flesh-on-flesh violence that labels it as such, and they don't have a similar context with regard to toys, because those toys are no longer used in that way in society, and this allows them to tell themselves they aren't "really" engaging in violence.

Of course they are.

Using a toy to inflict pain is violence. It really is as simple as that.
But the mind likes to play hide-and-seek with itself.
It likes to have the cake, and eat it too.
To indulge, yet be virtuous.
That's self-deception.
And it works.

For me, I see what I do as violence. The distinction, for me, is that I keep punching and kicking in the "combat" drawer. And I don't want combat in my BDSM drawer, nor do I want BDSM in my combat drawer. Not because I'm adverse to the idea, but because I only open the combat drawer for training and survival, and that involves a completely different mindset that just doesn't mix with BDSM unless I modify it, and that would lower its effectiveness for its intended use.

FWIW, I do use what I have learned about body dynamics and anatomy from martial arts when practicing BDSM. And what I do for spanking, closely resembles a punch, for the simple reason that it hurts her more, and me less. But I don't pull moves from one into the other because of the context that goes with that.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:45:07 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im just wondering how a Master can controll such an uncontrollable thing such as punching and kicking someone. And if they cant controll it then they are not in controll of the scene and there for I dont really see it as an act a Master could really do. Just my opinion but I think a Master should be in controll of everything he does during a scene and this just does not scream controlled to me.

Magik's slave


Wow!

WOW!

If use of my hands to throw a punch was soooo uncontrollable, then how am I controlling my hands to type this post?

How does a Master/Dom control his hands to use a flogger or cane effectively without injury?

Have I somehow mastered the art of self control to use my hands in a controlled way to bold the letters in that quote? I truly must be a god among men.

Even more of a god among men to control my own feet to able to walk.

And if I can control my hands to bold those letters, then how is controlling one's hands in use of a punch such a lofty and impossible feat?

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 7/4/2007 7:47:08 PM >

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:48:32 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy


Am i being naive? i dont think so but whats the Master's/Sir's/Doms take on this one?


NOPE... just incredibly Close-Minded


In my own personal opinion, I think this adequately sums up the opposing side in this debate.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:48:55 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy
when does punching your sub/slave in the stomach or anywhere become an acceptable BDSM past time?


When two people do it who are a) fully consenting adults and b) well educated on the potential risks of rough body play and skilled enough to manage those risks safely. 

quote:

and lets face it we are generally talking about male Doms and female subs/slaves.


Huh?  The majority of the "rough body players" I have personally encountered who are into this specific scene are gay males and male submissives.  I have only met a few heterosexual male doms and female subs who were interested in rough body play, and a much larger number of male submissives and gay males who had this interest. 

(in reply to Domspaintoy)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:52:39 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy

Makes no odds, you clearly got a bee in your bonnet. i said i CANT see how it could be made safe. i can not see how? i have yet to have anyone say how it can be made safe practice! instead of attacking me Faramir perhaps you would like to educate me in a civilised manner on this topic??????

dpt.


oh come now...  Just love how try to twist your words to show that you are just a poor girl trying to understand and the Bad Faramir is out to get you..

just so the facts are straight... 

You didn't say
quote:

i CANT see how it could be made safe


You Actually said

quote:

Its unsafe and i cant see how it could ever be made a safe thing to do.


you see those few words at the beginning of the sentence

quote:

 Its unsafe


you made your opinion very clear here.. and not only do you Consider it UNSAFE.. YOU can't see how it COULD EVER be made safe.

So cut the crap! 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Domspaintoy)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:52:59 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

I'd like to know exactly why most of the abdomen is off limits with a woman.  Can you give me some medical information there.  I'd be curious to run it by the medical professionals I know that do punching scenes.


I should have been clearer.

I have been told that the ovaries and pretty much everything from the cervix up is off limits.
That may not have been correct information.
As I said in a later post, I have not bothered to check it, for two reasons:

(a) If I'm training, it's up to my instructor to decide those things, and he will not be inclined to remove a safety guideline without a citation that indicates it actually is safe. If you can provide one, nephandi would be very happy about that; she didn't like being excluded from the abdominal punches during endurance training.

(b) If I'm fighting, I couldn't care less whether anything I do screws up the other person's health, nor what gender they are. Anyone throws a punch, pulls a knife, or anything of the sort, with demonstrated intent to hurt me, I do my best to stop them, and hope I'll still be standing afterwards. Safety is not a concern; that's why I practice nonlethal techniques, to improve the odds that those will be the ones I end up using.

In short, I've stuck with it because that's the safety rule I inherited. Those are sometimes unfounded, being from a doc who didn't know what s/he was saying, or whatever. I do not have a problem cutting that safety rule, provided someone gives me non-anecdotal sources to indicate that I will not come to regret doing so.

quote:

As my abdominals have gotten stronger, I can take more.


From what I gathered here, we were not talking about clenching the abdominal muscles.
I'd tend to agree that those can absorb some pretty impressive impacts.

That said, a good punch is about one third the impact of a 7.62mm NATO round over a slightly larger area, IIRC.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to PeggyO)
Profile   Post #: 120
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