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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 3:07:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

The most sadistic thing you can do with a pain slut is to tie them to the rack and leave them there..bounty

actually.. I disagree...

I would say softly touching and carressing the girl in a sensual manner.... of course.. you start with her believing that you are going to cause incredible delicious pain to her.. however, it never comes close. Let her mind wait in hopes and anticipation for that eventual pain that never comes... Then when done... untie her from the rack and send her own her way.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 3:24:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

In S&M--the criteria by today's standards, is that we both--TOP and bottom--MUST enjoy it. Otherwise, it is not S&M by modern standards but, abuse, torture and visit back to the Inquisition where S&M wasn't consensual.

mmmmmmmm could you explain where these standards come from... is there some Authority to the lifestyle that establishes this so-called Standard?

Fact... Not all pain is enjoyed in the scene by a bottom... and just because it is not enjoyed doesn't mean it wasn't consented too.

Fact... Pleasure/Gratification/Excitment Emotions can be in the perspective of the Past, Present and/or Future. A masocist may not enjoy the pain in the moment.. but have the scene will actually remember and savor a painful scene with fond memories. They can also look forward to a scene with Excitement. But during a painful scene itself.. Detest it.. but yet have consented to it.

Fact... sometimes they have consented to Pain and didn't enjoy it.. it happens.. and will happen again. In fact they will choose to do it again and sometimes again. Sometimes it's not about enjoying the pain.. but enduring it for some other purpose than specific pleasure resulting from the pain itself. Sometimes it's just the means to an end.

These are facts.. that do often occur for different individuals in the scene.. I happen to know more than a few individuals that bottom that prove these facts.

So. Must enjoy it. is a rather silly Standard.... However. for me.. I do feel that consent is important factor .... it's a difference of Ethical SM as compared to Unethical SM to me. of course.... that is MY standard... and not some MODERN standard to be adhere to.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 4:31:12 PM

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Myself, my greatest pleasure comes from the crying, sniffling, sobbing that the pain brings on. Luckily for me, I found a nice little slave that relishes being brought to tears which just elates my pleasure from inflicting it.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 6:37:58 PM

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Dear KnightofMists, Ladies and Gentlemen;

In the modern BDSM theater of S&M, the ethics of which we use as standards are that of willing consent to participate. The ethics and the willing consent to participate in S&M activities, to which risks are known, the affects/effects that will be achieved, e.g. crying, purging, pain manipulation, sub-space, Dominant's excitement, sexual arousal, et.al.; The disclosures of what S&M means to us and their disclosures of what S&M means to them as to come to an agreement of the relationship that occurs and what is enjoyed from this union in S&M.

The facts as you have posted are agreed to and understood in my personal circles of S&M. That is what I understand it to be.

My issues are with those who prey and abuse those who participate in S&M. The line is fine.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 6:41:54 PM

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Dear KatyLied,

Two.

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 7:13:09 PM

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quote:

My issues are with those who prey and abuse those who participate in S&M.

Gee, so are mine. Any chance you own a mirror?

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 7:15:02 PM

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General note: it's possible to disagree with someone without attacking their person, mocking their style, and questioning their legitimacy in a larger scope.

Just like it's possible to state an opinion without "absolutes" and formal language. LadyHugs might come off as elitist, but I don't see arrogance in her, much unlike those posts in response to hers.

Anyway, I'd say Master seems to like it best when I've hit the gray area between liking a pain and hating it. Or maybe that's me and I'm projecting.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 8:00:17 PM

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I am a masocist..a pain slut! with that said there are some activities that I abhor (even as a masocist) and some times of the month where even the slightest pinch send me into rage.

Regardless, if Master Archer wants to do something that is his right. I am his property to treat as he wishes even if it is something I dislike.

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 8:37:23 PM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Regardless, if Master Archer wants to do something that is his right. I am his property to treat as he wishes even if it is something I dislike.

He does things to yout that you don't like?

Good god woman! Don't you realize you're being abused by all modern BDSM standards????

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to Elegant)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 8:52:30 PM

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I am?...gasp

But..but...but..He said I have to do it or he will report me to the S/m authorities.

Maybe I should report him to the appropriate BDSM Social Services department. Or maybe give him a copy of the Official Manual Of Appropiate BDSM Activities and Attitude.

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to stef)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 9:47:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Inhibitor

but I don't see arrogance in her, much unlike those posts in response to hers.

I would say you are confusing Arrogance with Sarcasm

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Inhibitor)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 9:55:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

I am a masocist..a pain slut! with that said there are some activities that I abhor (even as a masocist) and some times of the month where even the slightest pinch send me into rage.

Regardless, if Master Archer wants to do something that is his right. I am his property to treat as he wishes even if it is something I dislike.

Thank you for being another example of a Fact that shows this statement

quote:

In S&M--the criteria by today's standards, is that we both--TOP and bottom--MUST enjoy it. Otherwise, it is not S&M by modern standards but, abuse, torture and visit back to the Inquisition where S&M wasn't consensual.

to be a false claim...and a silly one at that.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Elegant)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 10:17:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

In the modern BDSM theater of S&M, the ethics of which we use as standards are that of willing consent to participate. The ethics and the willing consent to participate in S&M activities, to which risks are known, the affects/effects that will be achieved, e.g. crying, purging, pain manipulation, sub-space, Dominant's excitement, sexual arousal, et.al.; The disclosures of what S&M means to us and their disclosures of what S&M means to them as to come to an agreement of the relationship that occurs and what is enjoyed from this union in S&M.

ok to translate...

In the BDSM lifestyle community of today, consent is the ethical standard that we judge participation on. That the members of the dynamic will have a understanding of the risks, affects/effects of engaging in the activities of BDSM. It will also include an understanding of what SM means to them and what enjoyment they gain from engaging in such activities.

well ok... at least I think that is what you trying to say... Still not sure.

But.. regardless you never really answer my question which was simply....

quote:

quote:

In S&M--the criteria by today's standards, is that we both--TOP and bottom--MUST enjoy it. Otherwise, it is not S&M by modern standards but, abuse, torture and visit back to the Inquisition where S&M wasn't consensual.

mmmmmmmm could you explain where these standards come from... is there some Authority to the lifestyle that establishes this so-called Standard?

fact is... Consent doesn't equate to Enjoyment.... and thus your supposed Standard is silly.

quote:

The facts as you have posted are agreed to and understood in my personal circles of S&M. That is what I understand it to be.

Interesting..... hardly surprizing but interesting considering what you posted earlier.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 10:37:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoticDan

The very definition of a sadist is one who enjoys inflicting pain. Wether the recipient enjoys it or not is irrelevant to the definition of the word.

Interestingly... very few get this point.

But you right... all that matters is that the Sadist perceives that they are causing pain. How one percieves that they are causing pain is another issue all together.

It maybe that a person can't perceive themselves causing pain if the person receiving is laughing, quiet and/or smiling. They may actually need the person to be crying, screaming etc. In other cases.. the perception of pain being cause will fall to other more sutble behaviors demonstrated by the person. For myself... I keep the person out of Sub-Space. If I percieve that they are going into sub-space.. then I will begin to perceive them as no longer feeling pain. They could be laughing, screaming or quiet... those behaviors for me don't equate to the person not feeling pain. But wheen they become unresponsive due to the effects that of sub-space.. then I begin to percieve a lack of pain being inflicted on them.

Note.. I can still continue to do what I want... but no longer am I gaining gratification from the causing of pain... it then transends to a pleasure of giving them a ride of sub-space. However, it is seldom that I give that to them, since I have a preference to cause pain.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 10:50:09 PM

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I enjoy inflicting pain because I enjoy it...I don't care if the bottom enjoys it or not...as long as I hear a few "ouches," I'm good.

MNN

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/5/2007 10:53:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

I am?...gasp

But..but...but..He said I have to do it or he will report me to the S/m authorities.

Maybe I should report him to the appropriate BDSM Social Services department. Or maybe give him a copy of the Official Manual Of Appropiate BDSM Activities and Attitude.

LOL

You two must have a lot of fun together...

I mean, a lot of pain giving and receiving regardless of who enjoys or dislikes it...

aka FUN!

MNN

(in reply to Elegant)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 3:13:36 AM

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Dear KnightofMists, Ladies and Gentlemen;

We (in a general sense) do have standards that we (in general sense) use in what we (in general sense) do in modern/current S&M.

They are: 1. That we (in general sense) do not carry Sadism into death of the masochist and or person receiving sadistic acts. 2. That we (in a general sense) do not carry Sadism into critical and or severe injuries, that cannot be reversed and or restore a person to a functional life. 2.a. Although accidental injuries occur, all efforts to prevent them are made. 3. That we (in general sense) prepare as to have skill, training, judgment, sound equipment as to make every effort to not damage/injure the other person/masochist beyond what is understood as 'personal control/mastery or art' of applications of stimulations as to cause a response and or responses. 3.a. We (in a general sense) understand the need for skills, knowledge , training, judgment and sound equipment as to prevent collateral damage/injury or unattended damage/injury. Ex. removing any items that will cause injury/death around the scene play space that a person in the act/behavior of struggling may hit and or come in contact with. Using equipment that won't fail in a struggle, e.g. cuffs, rope, affixed furniture as to hold the person/masochist under certain torque recommendations. 3.b. We (in general) have ready, means to apply first aid and or promptly respond to medical concerns--regardless if the person/masochist is able to raise the alarm or not; of their medical situation/concerns. 3.c. We (in general) may/can if it applies to a relationship/negotation/understanding --after care. The authority comes from our peers and what is the line in that community, society, group and or organization of what reasonable expectations of what S&M are in the modern/current sense.

These modern S&M standards are what seperates us from historical S&M, to which consideration to the person's health, welfare was not always considered. In addition, the seperation of historical S&M prior to the 'label' "S&M" --torture and cruelty has been documented in many sections of history; such as the Roman Catholic Popes-John XII (955-964); Pope Urban II in 1095;Dominican Vincente Ferrer in 1411; Pope Gregory XII in 1415; Pope Sixtus IV in 1478 the Society of Jesus surpressed briefly around 1773 is restored and continues Inquisitions until 1834 and 'the Church' continued to sanction torture until 1917. Tsar Ivan IV of Russia--known as Ivan the Terrible started his reign of torture, sadistic behavior through childhood to his death. Sexual Sadism finally gets it's name in modern time as S&M for the writer from Austria Leopold von Sacher-Masoch. He enjoyed giving pain as well as receiving pain. The true "Switch."
The history of torture, cruelty and sadism in WWII under Hitler.

With the exception of Leopold von Sacher-Masoch; which is identified for its sexual ties --the examples of Sadism in history is mainly for the sake of seeing others suffer slowly or not; for many reasons and in many ways but--they ended in critical injuries and or death.

We do have a nature to be cruel, torture, inflict pain and or discomfort and feed off suffering.
From tickling, sensation play, fear play (interrogation role play, etc); mental, emotional and or physical sadism, etc.--we do have a line we don't cross which are the above mentioned standards--not to kill and or seriously injure and or critically injure another person. When we do participate in S&M, we do our best to remove anything around the scene that can cause collateral injuires and or death. We take precautions as to achieve the goals of the scene and its ending in a positive manner where both parties (or more if there are others) can be pleased with and little or no regrets.

My concerns are those who come into S&M that cross that line and don't have the control to stop the temptation to cross those standards. Those who may not see the difference--need to know the difference, e.g. Historical vs. Modern/Sexual Sadism. The 'intent' within is a concern-- Please note that I am not including pushing the envelope in scenes. Each couple participating must do what they will --I just hope outloud that education and knowledge is included in the process. Not condem the practices of S&M within 'sound skill and knowledged participants.'

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

< Message edited by LadyHugs -- 7/6/2007 3:25:14 AM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 5:01:00 AM

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Now LadyHugs, that was finally a concise response, and if I'm the only person that understood it for what it was, I'm sorry for those that don't. Perhaps they'll need to take a course in remedial English.

I understood what you were getting at, even if you were speaking in some (and in all honesty, I can understand the perception of silliness... You might too, if you re-read your original post) major absolutes, that didn't convey properly what you just wrote. But I can see that was what you were trying to get at.

We all, as BDSM'ers in any portion of the lifestyle, and adhering to the philosophies of SSC (though sanity is thoroughly questioned) and RACK, need to acknowledge at least a general standard of safety and consent, as well as knowledge and understanding of the safe use of the "tools" (and that's what they are, despite peoples general insistence to call them toys) of the trade(s)/art(s). But I think most people here are in agreement with that. Or most of it, at anyrate.

And there is a problem with people jumping in willi nilli and seriously injuring people and then pointing fingers at the rest of us that do practice safely, with concern for our partners well being. However, I'm not sure as to how rampant a problem this is. Anyone got any figures?

I've always been of the opinion and practice that if I haven't used a tool or had a tool used on me first, I wouldn't use it on another... This of course doesn't include my cock, considering it's not detachable.

Merc, you stated:

"Hell - I don't know if we even qualify as 'real'. We always say we 'are'. There is nothing to understand other than when you are with us you are seeing us as we are, as we live, as it is - for us."

From every response I've seen from you, they've always been genuine... And for one, I have to say you're real without a doubt. Just keep being you brother.

As for the OP:

I identify more as a sensual sadist... I enjoy using pain as a tool to enhance pleasurable sensations, but I do also enjoy inflicting pain even during discipline and punishment, and during those times, the pain is not there for my slut (and she's a pain slut also) to enjoy.

The fact that she's a pain slut just means that it doesn't matter when I decide to inflict pain, she's up for it more often than not. There are indeed some forms of pain that she thoroughly dislikes, and others she absolutely gets off on... So my tools are chosen, dependent on the purpose behind the activity.

I thoroughly enjoy pain for pains sake, and it's entirely only enjoyable because of her reactions to it. I enjoy it when she enjoys it, and I enjoy it when she doesn't. I love to make her eyes glossy with tears, to hear the suffering in her whimpers and crys... But I also love to hear her her get off on it as well, and it doesn't matter to me either way whether she enjoys it, when it comes to my pleasure from it...

It does matter to me whether she enjoys her discipline and punishment tremendously more, considering that if she's enjoying something to keep her in line, or to show her the line she just crossed, then it's rewarding her, and I can't let that happen.

The distinction of whether or not I'm being a "service Top" when I'm inflicting pain, just because she happens to enjoy it is irrelevent to me, considering the simple distinction that I'd be doing it regardless. She is submitting to it in my service, and ultimately gains pleasure from that service, whether she's enjoying the pain or not.

I also agree that a good mind-fuck involving pain undelivered, might well be the ultimate sadistic torture for a pain-slut... As it was posted by KnightofMists above. I personally, off the top of my head can't think of one that's better.

Alright... Off to bed I go... Peace.

_____________________________

Consistent Discipline Renders Punishment Unnecessary

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 6:10:26 AM

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Not sure where the S.S.C comes into play if a sadist just likes inflicting pain because they just do. I'd only ever be interested in inflicting pain for the sub's enjoyment, to Me that's what power exchange is all about-mutual enjoyment.

(in reply to pussinbootz)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 6:25:53 AM

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*Wanders by, sees the fresh pile of dirt and wonders who is digging the hole, looks down and sees LadyHugs at the bottom vigorously digging her hole deeper*

You are going to give some of us whiplash with the way you are flopping around!

For the work that intelligent people have done to separate us from the evil that is torture (defines as unconsensual infliction of pain for some political/religious end) you want to tie us BACK? What I do has NOTHING/ZERO to do with the things you mentioned and the fact that you can't see that stuns me and as we all know I have a very low opinion of you already.

quote:

Please note that I am not including pushing the envelope in scenes

Please oh please tell us what the fuck THIS exclusion means? In your first post you sounded all certain about everything, then this one if the bitch doesn't die or get crippled it is okay, but then you add this little tidbit which I am dying to learn what you mean!

quote:

Those who may not see the difference--need to know the difference, e.g. Historical vs. Modern/Sexual Sadism.

Again, you went from we have to pleasure the bottom to as long as I don't run a nazi death camp I am okay?

Here is the money quote for me and why I think you are so poisonous to our community

quote:

My concerns are those who come into S&M that cross that line and don't have the control to stop the temptation to cross those standards.

Again, people who torture others in the same vein as nazis or Catholic Inquisitors, or the assholes at Guantanamo have ZERO to do with S&M and BDSM. In addition, what we see daily on these boards is the lack of relationship skills tearing hearts apart. Much of that pain is caused by false prophets espousing their bullshit as if it was manna from heaven and leading people down some primrose path rather than telling them the hard truth that BDSM requires MORE relationship skills than vanilla not less. Fancy prose and a feigned politeness is slick attempt to play the pied piper and as the many responses in this thread have shown, I am far from the only one who sees it and is sickened by it..

(in reply to LadyHugs)

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