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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 6:25:58 AM

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quote:

I can still continue to do what I want... but no longer am I gaining gratification from the causing of pain... it then transends to a pleasure of giving them a ride of sub-space.

This is why earlier I drew the distinction that if I'm doing what the submissive likes, then in my head I consider it being a service top and not sadism at all. That's fine with me, because most pain play for me is about control, so if I can control her pleasure then it satisfies my control kink too.

Yeah, I know I may be confusing matters by tossing another definition into the mix, but it may be useful to consider that dishing out pain isn't necessarily sadism just as receiving it isn't equal to masochism.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 7/6/2007 6:28:03 AM >

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 6:36:37 AM

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Ok...I just read through the thread...and in truth, normally I agree with SimplyMichael and the majority of his posts on collarme...but right now Im confused and my eyes were crossing from all the goings back and forth so Im gonna stay out of everything that was said earlier....

I am a masochist...a self proclaimed pain slut....I enjoy pretty much all forms of pain and am pretty good at dealing with any pain that I dont really enjoy for the pleasure of whomever is giving the pain. (I say whomever because my Sir isnt a Sadist and he knows that so he lets others beat on me occasionally....) I do agree that the worst thing you can do to me is hit softtly. I had someone hitting on me with one of those nice soft thuddy floggers the other night at a party and it was driving me nuts cause all I wanted to do was turn around and say "swing that damn thing like a man" but of course I didnt...mainly cause I was tied down next to a girl who was really enjoying it and I didnt want to ruin it for her..figured I could get mine later. I have played with those that considered themselves sadists and could care less if the girl enjoyed it or not, in fact they seemed to get off on making sure the girl (or bottom...sorry..dont mean to be gender specific) wasnt enjoying it and then ive played with others who did it only if the bottom was enjoying it and stoped when it looked like they werent. Both consider themselves a sadist and I dont think either one is wrong or better than the other.

< Message edited by GhitaAmati -- 7/6/2007 6:41:27 AM >

(in reply to happypervert)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 6:53:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Again, people who torture others in the same vein as nazis or Catholic Inquisitors, or the assholes at Guantanamo have ZERO to do with S&M and BDSM.

Torture is Torture

BDSM is BDSM

The difference is Consent and the Motivations to take such actions! And that is no fine line!

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 7:04:21 AM

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quote:

Torture is Torture

But the question was about sadism....which by definition included the person doing it enjoying it....I know many military men who have used torture techniques because they were ordered to, and it has changed them for life because it was so traumatic. That doesnt mean all torturers didnt enjoy it...but it is a very big difference. To me the difference between torture and sadism has nothing to do with whether the bottom consented. Thats a different topic. Not all people who torture are sadists, some are. Just like not all people who get tortured are masochists....

< Message edited by GhitaAmati -- 7/6/2007 7:05:23 AM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 7:10:52 AM

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I'm sure some torturers have been sadists. I'm sure some inquisitioners have been sadists.

That doesn't mean all torture IS sadism.

And I agree that consent has nothing to do with something being sadistic- only whether it is ethical sadism or not.

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 7:18:09 AM

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quote:

1. That we (in general sense) do not carry Sadism into death of the masochist and or person receiving sadistic acts.

Reasonable - finding and training new slaves is much too bothersome and

quote:

2. That we (in a general sense) do not carry Sadism into critical and or severe injuries, that cannot be reversed and or restore a person to a functional life.

Broken arms and legs aren't part of my activities, neither is smashing out teeth; however they aren't critical or severe and with time can be reversed, concentuality not withstanding. People without arms and legs can function very well so the 'chainsaw challenge' to test limits would be okay as long as afterward you got them a wheelchair to maintain their "functional life".

quote:

2.a. Although accidental injuries occur, all efforts to prevent them are made.

Like safe-words? How does the use of them prevent accidents?

quote:

3. That we (in general sense) prepare as to have skill, training, judgment, sound equipment as to make every effort to not damage/injure the other person/masochist beyond what is understood as 'personal control/mastery or art' of applications of stimulations as to cause a response and or responses.

Are certificates of achievement given?

quote:

3.a. We (in a general sense) understand the need for skills, knowledge , training, judgment and sound equipment as to prevent collateral damage/injury or unattended damage/injury. Ex. removing any items that will cause injury/death around the scene play space that a person in the act/behavior of struggling may hit and or come in contact with. Using equipment that won't fail in a struggle, e.g. cuffs, rope, affixed furniture as to hold the person/masochist under certain torque recommendations.

Is an engineering degree required? In the US - OSHA would be the overseeing agency. Which one inspects, supervises, and insures all your activities and equipment are safe? For instance, rope loses its strength in continued use. Do you have an independent outside source test it prior to use?

quote:

3.b. We (in general) have ready, means to apply first aid and or promptly respond to medical concerns--regardless if the person/masochist is able to raise the alarm or not; of their medical situation/concerns

Similar to #1 reasonable, but no reason to boast.

quote:

3.c. We (in general) may/can if it applies to a relationship/negotiation/understanding --after care.

People can call you if they don't feel like giving "after care" and you come to provide it?

quote:

The authority comes from our peers and what is the line in that community, society, group and or organization of what reasonable expectations of what S&M are in the modern/current sense.

Well then good for you! It sounds like you have an offshoot group of the 'Ancient Royal Order of the Old Swiss Chard'. The group we were with last week was considering a US chapter of 'Collard' members. Each novitiate will be given a collard seed and only those who grow a collard from this seed into a plant which can be used as a neck wrap, or a 'collard-collar' if you will, will be granted entrance. WE have our standards and no splinter group advocating the benefits of fringe players such as the 'slaves of spinach' will be considered 'true' BDSM 'collards'.

As ridiculous as that sounds it is no more/less than your representation. If it works for you and your group of 2, 2 dozen, 2 hundred, or 2 million; it by no means represents any "standard" that anyone should take as dogma or even a guide. That is compares favorably to Nazi torture, Medieval torture, or the torture of Saddam Hussein is totally immaterial. So WHAT? I doubt anyone subject to those atrocities on either side of the flogger, or shredder in the case of Saddam, thought a second about consent in the grand scale or in the minutia. Your representation of absolutes presents is much more dangerous philosophy than anything two consenting people can think up to do to each other.

quote:

We (in a general sense) do have standards that we (in general sense) use in what we (in general sense) do in modern/current S&M.

As Tonto replied to the Lone Ranger's statement; "There are 1,000 Indian warriors down there looking to kill us. We're in trouble Tonto." Tonto said; "What 'WE' are you talking about, white man?"

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 7:55:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
This is why earlier I drew the distinction that if I'm doing what the submissive likes, then in my head I consider it being a service top and not sadism at all. That's fine with me, because most pain play for me is about control, so if I can control her pleasure then it satisfies my control kink too.

Yeah, I know I may be confusing matters by tossing another definition into the mix, but it may be useful to consider that dishing out pain isn't necessarily sadism just as receiving it isn't equal to masochism.

Okay, so what if she needs the pain play, but doesn't necessarily enjoy it? I don't have much experience in this area, so I may not explain myself well, but I don't always enjoy or even like the pain, but feel a deep need for the whole experience...... maybe it's the whole energy exchange, the control over me, etc.... Does that make sense?

(in reply to happypervert)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 7:58:41 AM

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quote:

I don't always enjoy or even like the pain, but feel a deep need for the whole experience...... maybe it's the whole energy exchange, the control over me, etc.... Does that make sense?

Yes of course it makes sense. You need to submit to things that you don't enjoy. For whatever purpose. Perhaps it makes you feel weak (or strong for bearing it). Perhaps you enjoy knowing that you submitted to something you find not to be enjoyable. Perhaps you enjoy knowing that your submission pleased your partner.

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 8:01:29 AM

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If I understand it correctly, the OP is trying to understand sadism. The width and the breadth of it. Well, in order to do that, one has to be willing to explore the fullness of it. And sadism, as we in the BDSM "community" define it can and does include a sadism that stands alone...a sadism that disregards whether the recipient of the pain receives any pleasure from it. There is something we have not touched upon yet and that is the area of punishment. From what I've seen so far on this thread, most of the scenarios presented have been around scening...but what of the area of punishment? Surely there are sadists who administer punishments that they do not want their bottoms to enjoy? And these do not necessarily have to be physical in any way. Why, I was considering a boy once and gave him a punishment of writing an essay...because I knew he HATED to write. But I got great enjoyment over his struggle with this and he learned the lesson I had hoped to teach him.

Going back to examples of scening. I did a CBT scene with a boy once who was not so much into pain. He had a certain fear of it, but he wanted to test himself to see how far he could go. I was all to happy to oblige. We negotiated a scene and I remember deriving great pleasure at seeing him squirm and carry on with "ouch" and so forth. He was not "enjoying" the pain I was giving him...He was simply submitting to it. And that's the point of it for me. You might enjoy the pain I give you, you might hate it. The question is, are you willing to submit to it? That does not mean I want to kill you, or permanently damage you or cause you any psychological trauma...it only means I desire for you to submit...and that I value such submission a great deal.

MNN

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 8:18:44 AM

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at last a domme who lives in the real world and cares about her sub administering after care. this is so essential yet often overlooked by whip wielding pleasure chasing dommes and doms. it is essential that the sub's wounds are healed afterwards and that if there are any marks they are treated , yet this is so often not done, thankfully in this case you do and you receive my highest praise
shamedmale

(in reply to Bella1965)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 8:25:16 AM

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From: Scranton, PA
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quote:

Okay, so what if she needs the pain play, but doesn't necessarily enjoy it? I don't have much experience in this area, so I may not explain myself well, but I don't always enjoy or even like the pain, but feel a deep need for the whole experience...... maybe it's the whole energy exchange, the control over me, etc.... Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes sense to me too. I wouldn't speculate about whether it is masochism or something else because that may be just quibbling over semantics; it is enough that it works for you and it points to yet another perspective from the bottom that doesn't fit the classic definition of masochism. Personally, I find such perverse twists in the energy to be to be a huge turn on.

I suspect that this thread may end up causing more confusion than understanding about sadism. We're seing perspectives from the bottom that aren't deriving pleasure directly from pain as well as some from the top where the pleasure doesn't come directly from delivering it. It looks like there is a spectrum of motives and experiences surrounding pain play, and all we know is we're geting something out of it to go back for more. That's about all I need to understand.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 7/6/2007 8:38:12 AM >

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 8:25:55 AM

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quote:

most of the scenarios presented have been around scening...but what of the area of punishment?

Mistress NN,
I'll answer assuming that you are speaking to punishment outside the realm of "play" and/or the 'brat' dynamic.

The need for punishment represents, to us, failure. Failure which isn't exclusive to the submissive. The Dom/Master shares in the responsibility by way of poor training and/or poor follow up. The requirement to apply punishment is something we both strive to avoid. It is 'painful' for both of us.

The corrective action is directed to addressing the situation and, if need be, changing the environment causing the need. Regardless of what that is, the situation is talked out between us in detail. At the end of that discussion neither of us if feeling very good. The physical aspect is there only to serve as a demarcation point. Punishment is the defined end of the problem and/or situation. When it is over so is any concern that the cause of the punishment will be an ongoing distraction regarding our relationship. Much more time is spent on the discussion and correction than the punishment. In effect, the physical punishment and sensation it entails is cleansing and cathartic. The implement can be a bull-whip or a feather and it would have the same effect. It does not in any way resemble any scene or session between us.

It has been quite a while since there has been the need to apply punishment but that is the process and how it distinguishes from a play session or scene, or even just daily life.

(in reply to MistressNoName)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 8:49:18 AM

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and I thought I was the only one who laughed/sneered at those lengthy, please if I may, mind's eye, respectfully submitted posts...egads!

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 8:52:39 AM

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quote:

mind's eye

Her mind has two eyes. Just saying.

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 8:54:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Yes of course it makes sense. You need to submit to things that you don't enjoy. For whatever purpose. Perhaps it makes you feel weak (or strong for bearing it). Perhaps you enjoy knowing that you submitted to something you find not to be enjoyable. Perhaps you enjoy knowing that your submission pleased your partner.

Thanks Katy, sometimes it becomes clearer when someone else explains it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

Okay, so what if she needs the pain play, but doesn't necessarily enjoy it? I don't have much experience in this area, so I may not explain myself well, but I don't always enjoy or even like the pain, but feel a deep need for the whole experience...... maybe it's the whole energy exchange, the control over me, etc.... Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes sense to me too. I wouldn't speculate about whether it is masochism or something else because that may be just quibbling over semantics; it is enough that it works for you and it points to yet another perspective from the bottom that doesn't fit the classic definition of masochism. Personally, I find such perverse twists in the energy to be to be a huge turn on.

I suspect that this thread may end up causing more confusion than understanding about sadism. We're seing perspectives from the bottom that aren't deriving pleasure directly from pain as well as some from the top where the pleasure doesn't come directly from delivering it. It looks like there is a spectrum of motives and experiences surrounding pain play, and all we know is we're geting something out of it to go back for more. That's about all I need to understand.

It has been interesting and enlightening to read the various responses, especially because I am soooooo not a sadist.

But my own feelings and motivations often confuse or perplex me, so getting other perspectives really helps sometimes. I guess I need to stop myself from over-analyzing everything and just go with it.

(in reply to happypervert)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 9:13:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

mind's eye

Her mind has two eyes. Just saying.

well shouldn't it be: "mind's eyes"

just putting that out there.. you know.. to be a prick

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 9:40:01 AM

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I'm a prick too. But prefer to be called "spiky". (thanks to L.A.) : -)

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RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 10:19:11 AM

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I love inflicting pain. I love not inflicting pain when someone wants me to.
I love hurting some people in anyway that I can.
And I don't need consent for it.
So what does that make me?
I think the definition would be a human being.
I call myself a sadist because that's the term others use.
Do I want a future slave to be happy? Yes if I want to keep them.
No if I don't.
Do I worry about if what I do is consensual?
Yep.
Do I worry about harming someone?
Yep.
Does it stop me from doing what I want to do?
Yep.
Have I enjoyed this thread?
Absolutely.
I love seeing someone cut to shreds.
I don't even mind if it's me sometimes.
In fact I set myself up for it just for the fun.
Am I perverted?
No because I try very hard not to corrupt anyone.
Have I enjoyed what BDSM I have done.
Yep.
But I've also enjoyed not doing it when begged by a sub just as much.

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 12:13:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shamedmale

at last a domme who lives in the real world and cares about her sub administering after care. this is so essential yet often overlooked by whip wielding pleasure chasing dommes and doms. it is essential that the sub's wounds are healed afterwards and that if there are any marks they are treated , yet this is so often not done, thankfully in this case you do and you receive my highest praise
shamedmale

I'm not sure, nor am I asking for names, of whom you are speaking...but I personally do not know of one Domme or Dom in the life that does not care for the well-being of anyone who submits to them. Not saying these uncaring folks don't exist, but I do not personally know of them. The people I have become acquainted with tend to have a high sense of personal responsibility. Speaking for myself, I would never pack my toy bag full of torture implements and neglect healing salves, bandages, snacks, water and other safety devices. I might be a sadist or if that is too extreme a definition, one who has sadist tendencies...but I am also a thinking, feeling and caring human being. And I believe most Tops in this life are as well, whether they identify as sadists or not.

MNN

(in reply to shamedmale)

RE: trying to understand sadism - 7/6/2007 12:18:03 PM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Her mind has two eyes. Just saying.

Yeah, and they both need LASIK.

~stef

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