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ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

 3.c. We (in general) may/can if it applies to a relationship/negotation/understanding --after care.  The authority comes from our peers and what is the line in that community, society, group and or organization of what reasonable expectations of what S&M are in the modern/current sense.
 

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As a submissive, I dont understand how inflicting pain and body injury and tissue damage is taking care of ones submissive.  Doing that repeatedly causes irreversible damage, either tissue damge or damage to the endocrine system.  It will wear out the adrenal glands and the pancreas.  As a submissive gets older, her body will break down.  I cant help notice how many submissives have auto-immune diseases or conditions. 

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What no one really addressed is WHY does inflicting pain arouse you or make you feel powerful?   Why doesnt being loving and tender arouse you?  Has any sadist ever explored where that need to inflict pain comes from?   Where or how did the wires get crossed in some people that causes them to NEED and/or ENJOY inflicting pain on another person???   It SEEMS so hateful, so mean, so angry, so vicious. 

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ORIGINAL: chellekitty

i still hold that the most sadistic thing a Top can do to a masochist is to play gently with them...ugh...

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ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear PAsextoy4u, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In another effort to explain from my side of Sadism; there are many flavors of pain that can be used and unfortunately, all to often abused.
 
Indeed there are as many types of Sadists and masochists as there are ice cream flavors at Baskin Robbins.  It really is difficult to put something that is felt and sensations used as to create the chemical reactions as to make a launch into flying or subspace; into terms with any solid results.  Again, some people see the glass half empty, others see it half full.
 
I will do my best to give an example or so, to explain 'pain' before the pleasure aspects.  One example only women who have given birth can know all too well--the labor, discomfort, the work and the tears, the hormonal roller-coaster as the baby is ready to come into the world we're in--not within Mom.  It is that labor, the pain which you know will bring the bundle of joy in your life--it is that goal which gives resolve to see you through much pain.  Some Moms are lucky and don't have much pain at all. But, each birth--is unique and no two are the same.

***Thank you for replying.   In this instance, however, a woman does not endure labor every day of her life, or many days a week, like a submissive does who is with a sadist.  Women who have children year after year often have many health problems.  The body can only withstand so much wear and tear. 
 
So, why do women go through the pain? --Answers are many.  Another example is the pain before orgasm for some.  It is that brief pain before release and then the body seemingly creates it's own 'sleep aid.'  Have you noticed how guys need to lay back and recover--hard work.  Of course they need to do a lot of work as they do the 'Elvis Pelvis' per se.  Women can also experience this brief pain before release.  It is just but for a moment--so why do humans push beyond the pain--perhaps as most may find; it is the relief after the pain.  Athletes are another group which often say; 'No pain-no gain.'  So, why do track people push themselves so hard and push through pain--not only for competition but, sometimes for their self pride, image and accomplishment.  Running a race--the joy of winning--that 'high' is much like sub-space. 
 
Those seeking that rush or endorphin high--cannot achieve it on their own.  It is like medical studies that show, people who are ticklish aren't ticklish when they attempt to tickle themselves.  The need for an external aid, device and or in S&M; the Sadist provides the external force that the body as well as the mental and emotional side cannot mute.  Again, tickling factor--that other person can tickle.  Should it not be known, tickling can be a form of Sadism. 
 
***There ARE ways to reach incredible highs WITHOUT enduring pain.   And there is a difference between a chemically induced high, like once has from running, and the "subspace" most subs go into. That kind of subspace is actually a dissociative state of being.  When the mind and/or body can no longer absorb or endure what is happening to the person, there is a dissociative split.  That is one cause of the flying sensation or the "out of body experience".
 
But there ARE ways to achieve highs and "out of body experiences" without pain.  Those who meditate can reach those states without any pain or infliction of pain.  And repeatedly inducing a chemical high in that manner will in time exhaust the body.  Those highs partially come from stress hormones being released, which in time weaken or wear certain organs and body systems.

As for me, I work with reactions -- negotiations are when I do find out how the boundaries are for that person.  Again, people are their own best Masters.  They know what gets them in a happy space and for some--it requires a bit of pain before they go into subspace.  Some cases have been extremely brief discomfort and they're off in subspace happy.
 
I must make another effort, as to explain that there is a difference between 'hurting' someone and 'pain' scenes.  I go back to a person's intentions.  Only the person's spirit of intent knows for sure-- I don't like to 'hurt' people.  I will enjoy delivering pain to those who seek it as to create the body chemical within them to create that 'high' like a drug trip or being super buzzed with drinking--and all without injesting/consuming drugs and or alcohol to do so.  My pleasure comes from delivering my skills, knowledge as to permit that person to have a high without using drugs and or alcohol.  We are also witnessing of late, the medical studies by Russian doctors how S&M 'can'/'may' give healthy benefits.
 
For me, I won't participate in humiliation and or a pain scene without the full cooperation and consent of the other party.  It isn't fun for me if the other person isn't having fun.  To me, pain play does not require injury, tissue damage and heavy impact.  If I can achieve the same result by a tap like twiddling a Number 2 pencil between my fingers type of impact or touch if you will--as others do with massive hard strikes with a cane--I shall do so.  Working with the electrical system of the body (nerves) I will.  One of my favorite S&M scenes involves textures and sensations --did anybody realize or care to notice, that color of bunny furs also have different textures?  Mind games, suggesting and tricking the body and body is a form of Sadism--guessing wrong about the color fur could be just as fun and no impact period.  It is much like taste testing with the food but, in this form--it is testing and feeling with textures, sensations and having fun with the reactions.  For example moistened braided leather from an old cheap bullwhip, it can be suggested that it is a snake--using creative juices; suggestions can create the mental sadism for somone.  For those in the modern scene it is known as a "Brain/Mind F__k."

 
***TO ME, this is sensation play.  Why is this considered sadism???  I have experienced sensation play with fur, light implements, and objects light dragged over my skin.   And to ME, brain/mind F__ks arent on the same level as impact play that causes bruises, welts, marks, bleeding, etc. 
 
It is fun for me, to see someone to confuse burlap for a bunny fur pelt and a bunny fur pelt with sandpaper.  I mention this sort of Sadism; where it does not have to require 'pain' or 'injury' to the body.  It is even more fun when the submissive/masochist has lost time.  They think they have only been worked with for thirty minutes; when in fact they have been scened with for over four hours.  Tired without having to 'work' --it is a pleasure to see them happy and high in subspace just for sensation sadism.
 


Because it is an electrical exchange, energy will be exchanged.  It is only broken off when the scene or role play is finished.  It is much like an echo, where energy bounces off each other like voices repeat back.  It is much like a dance and as a person recieving pain may cry or laugh and other reactions; we remain connected and we enjoy them in their moment of discomfort; much like the contorted face of a lover about ready to cum.  To deny the relief--is at times more cruel than the discomfort or burn and or pain prior to orgasm.  This can be proven independently if a woman; by placing a vibrating 'egg' at high vibration against the clitorus--as much as it builds it then feels hot to a woman, then the pricklely pain and the desire to make it stop comes--you hold it on that side of the clitorus and then you thrash and 'suffer' per se--seeing it through you stop or remove it from the clitorus--this too is a form of sadism but, more on the sensual side.  The throbbing, twitching--this is the pleasure to sadism and to get there the pain to get the pleasure aspects.  It is also a release and relief.  Body chemicals change the mixture or recipe if you will--all these stages are body chemical changes--as the nerve bundles may be the wiring--the conducting forces are the external influences, such as pain, pleasure and relief.  For those who aren't mechanical--the car battery has metal plates inside the case, filled with acid (especially older batteries), the positive energy and negative energy poles go to the alternator--which regulates and balances the energy.  A Sadist is similar to an alternator and generator which goes into the battery (the masochist/submissive) and the chemicals react with the plates and thus creates the juice/power of a battery.  It is good practice to check the battery as to keep the liquid covering the plates; usually water is added.  As a Sadist, I check in with the submissive/mascohist as to maintain a balance with them as much as they do for themselves.
 
Some wish to wear their marks as a pride thing.  It is a bit like holding the trophy or ribbon.
It isn't so much being injured--but, something of real pride.  Others do not wish marks--again, certain techniques won't leave marks and or marks that disappear in a few hours.  Each person's body heals differently.
 
Sadism can be used as to promote catharsis.  A person who needs and wants to cry but cannot, may find that in a catharsis frame of which some pain applied triggers the emotions and sensations to which creates the door or window of opportunity to permit a purge, healing and renewal.  This is not a punishment venue--but, in my mind's eyes--a healing venue.  I do this out of love and concern.  It is just another tool.  For some, it might just be as affective as embracing them in a hug, holding them close and petting them with the kindest of touches.  This too can be just as affective as a flogging with anything from bunny pelts and or mink stoal and or a cat-o-nine tails. I work as to tailor things to the individual.
 
***Again, there are ways to induce catharsis and release without the infliction of pain and without damaging the body tissues.  Bunny pelts and fur mitts can be used to cause a release.   And I dont believe that bringing on tears and release through pain truly helps a person.  I think anyone who needs a release like that would benefit much more from a good bodywork therapist who can help them get all the release and catharsis the person needs.  

Sometimes S&M doesn't need a reason other than for just plain fun.  Again, it really is an individual thing and each couple really have to tailor things to suit the wants and needs of those involved.
 
Religon and Sadism.  I often think of the conversations with a Catholic Priest who also was the legal council of the Catholic Church to which he often shared his personal perspectives as far as the rites, rituals and ceremonies of the historical and modern Church.  (I am not Catholic by the way but, we had a mutual enjoyment of history and law).  By his experiences, being rather old at the time, was brought up in the times of his teachers relating how they wore scratchy clothes and subjected to flagulations and or self flagulations.  He said, the intent was at that time for the opportunity for atonement.  This gave the opportunity to reflect, to suffer and or pay in a way, for their sins as Jesus did for all mankind.  We see this occasionally on TV in some Middle-East's religous practices where men take a chain flail and beat their shoulders hard.
Of course the Inquisition period was in the eyes of the Church at that time, to have people confess their sins and convert back to the Church as the only 'true' salvation.  Again, times have changed and methods have changed --and yet at times remains the same. 

***Im just going to skip all the religious issues involving punishment, pain, torture, abuse, etc.  As a former Catholic, this is too loaded a topic even for ME LOL
 
It is medical fact, that over doing with impact, clamping and binding; will result in doing injury to the body.  This is why I want so much for better medical education on what is done in the scene.  Knowing medical facts and laying out the risks are important to me--I share risks with all my play partners, as to inform them as to permit them to make choices regarding their body.
 
***Having medical information is good.  But do you also have information on ways to induce great highs, intense releases, incredible pleasure, etc without any impact or without any risk factors?  Do you know how to integrate Energy Play with Impact play to intensify the sensations and reactions without any risk of body injury or without stressing out the body over and over again???

History of civilization has many incidents of which can be deemed elements of Sadism.  It is hoped by these days and within the community at large; that it is for the right reasons for those involved in giving sadist techniques as much as it for those who recieve sadistic techniques; to include leaving people in the same and or better condition than when we started.

 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

 ***Again, thank you for replying and for replying with respect.  While I am questioning you and maybe even challanging you a bit, I hope you know I dont mean any disrespect.  I seek to gain more info and to share information I may have that others dont have. 
 
As a sensuous submissive who was almost totally crippled with fibromyalgia a year ago, I had to learn alot of ways to heighten my experiences and incease my pleasure without any pain, and with little force or impact on my body.   Mercifully, I have found something that has given me relief of at least 50% of the symptoms of fibromyalgia, but I still know I have to protect MY body.  I have learned to integrate Energy Work with spanking and sensation play to drastically increase my pleasure and experiences, as well as the person I play with. 
 
Thank you for sharing, LadyHugs.

 
 
 
 
 

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

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Because it is an electrical exchange, energy will be exchanged.

 
There is no electrical exchange, the energy that is spoken of isn't "electrical" and since you spent the first half of your post talking about how it is "chemical" energy, why have you suddenly switched to it being an exchange of electrical energy?  While the body uses electrical impulses internally, there is no external exchange.
 

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  Those seeking that rush or endorphin high--cannot achieve it on their own.  It is like medical studies that show, people who are ticklish aren't ticklish when they attempt to tickle themselves.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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  Those seeking that rush or endorphin high--cannot achieve it on their own.  It is like medical studies that show, people who are ticklish aren't ticklish when they attempt to tickle themselves.

So what about self-cutters? People who cut themselves for the endorphin rush as a "high"?

I've watched people do it. They go from crying, emotionally-racked wrecks to a calm and relaxed state of mind from the endorphins off a few cuts.

I find it hard to beleive that I couldnt stick myself with needles and not trigger some kind of endorphin high.

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I would think that would have to be answered by those who do it to themselves or professionals in mental health.

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ORIGINAL: happypervert

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I can still continue to do what I want... but no longer am I gaining gratification from the causing of pain... it then transends to a pleasure of giving them a ride of sub-space.

This is why earlier I drew the distinction that if I'm doing what the submissive likes, then in my head I consider it being a service top and not sadism at all. That's fine with me, because most pain play for me is about control, so if I can control her pleasure then it satisfies my control kink too.

Yeah, I know I may be confusing matters by tossing another definition into the mix, but it may be useful to consider that dishing out pain isn't necessarily sadism just as receiving it isn't equal to masochism.