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Are you really owned if you are not treated like property? - 7/20/2007 8:20:34 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline 		(This is coming out of the "sharing" thread, because I think it deserves a thread of its own (and because I missed all the good conversation starting on page 3).)

Are you really a slave if all you are ever forced to do is stuff you enjoy?

As evidenced by the replies to the "sharing" question, many people believe that slavery or ownership is simply a state of mind.   All it takes to be a slave is the feeling that one is a slave.  All it takes to be owned is the acknowledgment that one is owned.  Is that really all there is to it?

Ownership is one of my major kinks.  I like knowing, in some real and objectvie way, that I actually do own my slave.  Things like collars and brands turn me on to know end because they exist outside of my feelings and outside of any bond forged between myself and my slave.  I like to share my slaves because it makes tangible the fact that they are property.  As I said in the "sharing" thread, I can not loan what I do not own.  Sure one can own something and not use it in the ways one uses real property (real in the sense of real estate), and sure there are other ways to highlight that one owns someone else.  However, there is no question about the concept of ownership when a Master gives his slave away for a few hours.

The question of "suffering" is an interesting one as well.  Whenever I begin negotiations with a slave, I make it very clear the "slavery is not always fun."  For me, again, I like tangible evidence that the relationship I have with my property is Master/slave.  This means that only forcing them to do things they want to do just won't cut it.  I have to re-enforce the idea that they are slaves by throwing in some unpleasantness...otherwise, it is purely a subjective and theoretic Master/slave relationship.

Of course this is just my way.  I am not saying everyone must form their relationship this way or else it is not real or true.  Nor am I saying there is anything wrong with a purely theoretic and subjective Master/slave relationship.  I am sure, for many people, just knowing that they could and would do the unpleasant things (they just don't want to) is enough for them to feel like Master and slave.  It just isn't enough for me.  I need evidence.  I need proof.

Thoughts?

Taggard


< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 7/20/2007 8:30:22 AM >

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:28:11 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Do you mean ever or never? Ah misread, i thought you were asking if you aren't a slave if you are never asked to do something that you don't enjoy. i read it incorrectly.

heartfelt

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 7/20/2007 8:29:09 AM >

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 8:30:38 AM   
SlND3R3LLA


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline 		The only proof I need is that Master is making me go to a Dr. appt today, without him making me, I wouldn't go.  That's the truth, plain and simple.
 
I don't know that there has to be outside proof, maybe it just depends on the person.  When Master collared me, I knew from that moment on I belonged to him.  I don't see him making me do something horrid will make that stick anymore than it does now.  I don't think we have the need to have validation by actions other than if he tells me to do something, I do it.  He knows that if something will make him happy, I will do it, even if it hurts me in some way.  That is why I trust him, I know he won't allow me to be hurt either physicallly, or emotionally.  The emotional ones can cut deeper than any, and that is one that he won't be able to see or fix.
 
I have a tattoo that marks me as his.  I got it as a surprise to him and he loves it.  Does it make me feel anymore owned?  No, I wouldn't say that it does.  To me it's just an outward sign of a commitment I have to him. 
 
We all have the need for different things, some more extreme than others.  Let's face it, it is a state of mind to be owned, no one can do that legally anymore.  If the Master knows he owns his slave, and the slave knows she is owned... there shouldn't be the need to find ways to prove it.  That seems almost insecure in a way, someone insecure of their role and insecure about whether theirs is actually devoted to them.
 
Sin

_____________________________

And in that moment, everything I knew to be true about myself up until then was gone. I was acting like another woman, yet I was more myself than ever before. ~F

To hell with diamonds, lube is a girls best friend ;)

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:13:38 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		A real master who truly owns a woman as property should be able to sell off one of her kidneys without asking, anyone else is just a pussy.

(in reply to SlND3R3LLA)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:28:05 AM   
LaMspeach


Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Are you really a slave if all you are ever forced to do is stuff you enjoy?

Thoughts?


I have learn to enjoy the stuff he forces me to do because in my mind i am pleasing Him. It doesnt matter if i started out liking the act or not, all that matters is i am pleasing Him. So, if I can find joy in being forced to do something I started out NOT liking because i did it to please him... Does that make me less owned  or not really property?

< Message edited by LaMspeach -- 7/20/2007 9:29:26 AM >

_____________________________

peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"



(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:28:31 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well first off, ownership and property are two different concepts. 

Personally, I do not think whether something is enjoyable or not makes a difference in terms of whether something is slavery or not.  After all, since this is consensual, we're talking about people who choose relationships which work for them.  Obviously it's not always suffering in ALL ways- so then you get into a question of degree. 

I think zero degree is fine for me.

As well, there is the "inevitability" of pain and suffering in life and relationships.  Life happens- to everyone.  Masters will suffer.  Master will endure pain.  Master will fuck up. So will slaves, so will vanillas, so will everyone.  So there IS pain and suffering and endurance, no matter what you really do on your own accord.

I personally see no reason to ADD to that suffering and endurance.  I think time and experience together, through the good and bad life throws at us, is more than what I could ever hope for to show my relationship is what it is- the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

And in fact, I want to INCREASE the good and DECREASE the bad as much as possible (with the exception of kinky play).

So, again, I think it falls under "do what works for you"  A lot of masters and slaves DO need some form of suffering in order to make it "real" for them. 

But I don't think that is what defines something as Ms, or being treated as "property."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:31:33 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

So, if I can find joy in being forced to do something I started out NOT liking because i did it to please him... Does that make me less owned  or not really property?


That's rather profound!

(in reply to LaMspeach)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:32:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		"treated like property" interesting concept, Taggard...given that not all property is treated equally, this slave will make a stab at adding to your thread, and wishes you best of luck with it!
 
Master has challenged this slave every day since we met face to face over 4 years ago.  Some of the challenges have been relatively easy and/or not unpleasant for this slave...some have been and continue to be mentally and emotionally excrutiating.  Master reports to this slave that she has made progress in that some of the things are less excrutiating than they used to be.
 
some call it abuse, some call it suffering for a sadist, or "proof" of the title of slave, however, this slave merely thinks of it as obedience to Master, which is what she signed on for in this consensual slavery gig.
 
thing is, this slave wants to do Master's bidding...whatever that "bidding" might entail, even if there is suffering, distastefullness, sharing, unpleasanttry,etc....so which is it, is this slave being treated like property if she's willing and wants to do whatever Master directs to be done(no matter what), or is she only really, truly treated like property if Master manages to make her feel like responding "NO-WAY, Motherfucker, the slave doesn't want to do that!!!!" to one of his demands, at some point along the path? 

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:32:36 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

A real master who truly owns a woman as property should be able to sell off one of her kidneys without asking, anyone else is just a pussy.


*gulp*

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:36:45 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

So, if I can find joy in being forced to do something I started out NOT liking because i did it to please him... Does that make me less owned  or not really property?


That's rather profound!


IMO, I think that makes you more owned. 

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:42:27 AM   
SexyRed


Posts: 529
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty


Are you really a slave if all you are ever forced to do is stuff you enjoy? (Yes, if you feel you are and your partner feels you are)

As evidenced by the replies to the "sharing" question, many people believe that slavery or ownership is simply a state of mind.  (Everything is a state of mind and moves to an individual realty) All it takes to be a slave is the feeling that one is a slave.  All it takes to be owned is the acknowledgment that one is owned.  Is that really all there is to it? (Yes, again, individuals have the right to feel the way they want to about the state of being owned or property or a slave)

 I have to re-enforce the idea that they are slaves by throwing in some unpleasantness...otherwise, it is purely a subjective and theoretic Master/slave relationship.(And what is wrong with subjective and theoretical? If it works for those involved? I know you said there is nothing wrong with it, but posing the question perhaps suggests that you feel simply feeling a state of being is not enough to be 'true')

.  Nor am I saying there is anything wrong with a purely theoretic and subjective Master/slave relationship.  I am sure, for many people, just knowing that they could and would do the unpleasant things (they just don't want to) is enough for them to feel like Master and slave.  It just isn't enough for me.  I need evidence.  I need proof.  (Not sure I understand this. Why do you need proff about something you are doing? Proof about what? that you really own a slave, not just "think" you do? If sharing your slave or making them do unpleasant things for them is proof, you answered your own question)


Taggard



For me, whatever I think I am, I am.

_____________________________

A trucker will slow down for a blonde, stop for a brunette, but back up 500 yards for a redhead!


(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:45:48 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty


The question of "suffering" is an interesting one as well.  Whenever I begin negotiations with a slave, I make it very clear the "slavery is not always fun."  For me, again, I like tangible evidence that the relationship I have with my property is Master/slave.  This means that only forcing them to do things they want to do just won't cut it.  I have to re-enforce the idea that they are slaves by throwing in some unpleasantness...otherwise, it is purely a subjective and theoretic Master/slave relationship.

Of course this is just my way.  I am not saying everyone must form their relationship this way or else it is not real or true.  Nor am I saying there is anything wrong with a purely theoretic and subjective Master/slave relationship.  I am sure, for many people, just knowing that they could and would do the unpleasant things (they just don't want to) is enough for them to feel like Master and slave.  It just isn't enough for me.  I need evidence.  I need proof.

Thoughts?

Taggard



I agree that throwing in some unpleasantness will certainly add to the "owned" feeling.  My question to you is, would you rather they do it and be distressed at having to do it (crying, bitching, etc) or is it ok if they just decide they can muscle through whatever it is and have a good attitude about it?

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:52:36 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


thing is, this slave wants to do Master's bidding...whatever that "bidding" might entail, even if there is suffering, distastefullness, sharing, unpleasanttry,etc....so which is it, is this slave being treated like property if she's willing and wants to do whatever Master directs to be done(no matter what), or is she only really, truly treated like property if Master manages to make her feel like responding "NO-WAY, Motherfucker, the slave doesn't want to do that!!!!" to one of his demands, at some point along the path? 



lmbo...if i even thought such a thing...forget about actually stating it aloud, but simply thought it, Daddy would sense it, knock my lights out, revive me with a bucket of water and some slaps, knock 'em back out again, revive me, then check me into the nearest mental health clinic, because i will have clearly lost my everlasting mind, lol.

wonderful post beth.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 9:55:17 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yes and yes and yes.

I don't need to be beaten, shared with other men, shaved bald, branded, etc. to know that I am owned. I just am. That is all that is takes. In my book, you don't even have to be obedient or humble - you just have to be owned. Being obedient is just an easy way to demonstrate that you are owned, no more no less. You can be spoiled like a princess with diamond encrusted ball gowns and you are still owned.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:00:01 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Well first off, ownership and property are two different concepts. 



'splain, please. *smile*

What does one own but property?  What is property besides something that is owned?

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:00:11 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I have told my slave that it is easy to be a slave when you are told to do something that you enjoy. The test is when you are told to do something you don't enjoy.
I think ownership goes beyond that though. You are owned when you wake up in the morning and instead of thinking, "what will I do today", you are thinking "what does Master need today". I may have my slave do something that she may enjoy, but it is done when I want it, not when she wants it.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:02:54 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Well first off, ownership and property are two different concepts. 



'splain, please. *smile*

What does one own but property?  What is property besides something that is owned?

Taggard



Depends on how you look at it. You own a cat, but if you beat it you will be arrested and taken to jail. You own a table and if you smash it to be bits nobody cares.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:05:08 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
I have told my slave that it is easy to be a slave when you are told to do something that you enjoy. The test is when you are told to do something you don't enjoy.

No, it's not.  A LOT of slaves have problems accepting what they enjoy and have trouble obeying when told to do something specifically nice for them.  And heaven forbid the MASTER spends energy ON THEM to make them happy!!! 

It's very difficult for a lot of people to accept enjoyment for themselves.  They are taught that they don't deserve it, that they need to suffer, that it's not their place.

quote:


I think ownership goes beyond that though. You are owned when you wake up in the morning and instead of thinking, "what will I do today", you are thinking "what does Master need today". I may have my slave do something that she may enjoy, but it is done when I want it, not when she wants it.

What if you both happen to want it at the same time?  What about masters who order their slaves to think of *I* and *me*?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:07:46 AM   
daddyscherry


Posts: 85
Joined: 7/10/2007
From: Daddy's Tower, CA
Status: offline 		Although i don't think that it all has to be unpleasant and distasteful i do agree with Taggard that there is something to be said for having to do things like this.

my Daddy said to me once that obeying when it was easy didn't mean as much as obeying when it was really difficult to do...where is the submission in obeying only the things that you want to obey or find pleasurable to do? If not challenged to submit in the face of something you might not readily agree with,desire or whatever then where is the submission?

It doesn't have to be a sharing thing and i am really not trying to say that what i described above is right or true or anything.....because a state of mind, regardless, can be a very powerful thing....

It can be something as simple as having to wear something that you don't want to wear....My Daddy once had me wear an outfit that just SCREAMED hooker out to meet an old friend of his....we were supposed to go to dinner in Beverly Hills to some posh place and here I was gonna look like I was rented entertainment....It felt awful at first....then i just accepted that my Daddy wanted me to wear it....it was a struggle though. But as HIS he can chose to have me dressed any way he chooses.

That's a small example...there have been other bigger ones, that i have just hd to grin and bear because that was what he wanted. Each time, it makes me personally feel more like his slave.

I have also had fantasies about this very thing, considering writing a story about it for my site....


_____________________________

~cherry
a.k.a. charismagirrl

For today i won't say but...
For today i won't say just....
For today i will simply obey...
For always i will be your imperfect slave.

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:11:56 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		A slave isn't really owned unless he or she is treated like property.  So far so good.  But it's up to the owner to determine how to treat his or her property--not pundits on Collarme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Thoughts?

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 20
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