RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like property?

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RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:12:49 AM

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
I have told my slave that it is easy to be a slave when you are told to do something that you enjoy. The test is when you are told to do something you don't enjoy.

No, it's not. A LOT of slaves have problems accepting what they enjoy and have trouble obeying when told to do something specifically nice for them. And heaven forbid the MASTER spends energy ON THEM to make them happy!!!

It's very difficult for a lot of people to accept enjoyment for themselves. They are taught that they don't deserve it, that they need to suffer, that it's not their place.

quote:

I think ownership goes beyond that though. You are owned when you wake up in the morning and instead of thinking, "what will I do today", you are thinking "what does Master need today". I may have my slave do something that she may enjoy, but it is done when I want it, not when she wants it.

What if you both happen to want it at the same time? What about masters who order their slaves to think of *I* and *me*?

Agreed. I'm sick of this martyr complex floating around. Obeying is obeying. He orders, I obey. It might "mean more" when I don't like doing it, but that doesn't mean he is going to go out of his way to make me miserable.

God I'm glad I have an owner who actually likes it when I'm happy and doesn't try to make me miserable.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:13:16 AM

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I have never understood the idea that "if it's easy and what you want and enjoy then it's not submission"

Isn't the RELATIONSHIP what you want and enjoy? Does that mean you aren't a submissive because you WANT the relationship? What about couples who "naturally" are just dom and sub together? Because they didn't have to work to "feel that way" does that mean it's not enough of a struggle to call it submission/domination? If you easily and happily call him sir does that mean it's not really submissive calling him sir?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to daddyscherry)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:21:37 AM

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
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My Angel is owned. He is not treated as property, he is treated as my child. There is no question who he belongs to, and there is no question that he acts with my best interests always in the forefront of him mind. However, we share the strong interest in age play, and he enjoys it as much as I do. He has never been ordered to do something I specificaly know he dislikes. He does what I want when I want it with no questions asked, and he happens to be lucky enough to have an Owner that enjoys many of the same kinks he does. The question of obedience isnt how much he dislikes his task, its how quickly he goes about performing it, how well he does it and how happy it makes me. From dishes to a massage, the quality of the effort put into it is my focus, not how much of a burden it would be on him t prove his obedience.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:22:09 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

A real master who truly owns a woman as property should be able to sell off one of her kidneys without asking, anyone else is just a pussy.

While I am sure you are just being an, as you put it, arrogant bastard, you do raise an interesting point. There is no question that someone who sells off your body parts owns you. Thanks for the contribution. *smile*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:24:03 AM

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But what if it was the slaves idea and she had to persuade the master to please allow her to sell her organs?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:30:19 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

But what if it was the slaves idea and she had to persuade the master to please allow her to sell her organs?

That wasn't the original premise, but if the slave asks for something that unowned people could do without asking, it is, at least to me, evidence of ownership.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:33:02 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed
Not sure I understand this. Why do you need proff about something you are doing? Proof about what? that you really own a slave, not just "think" you do?

This is exactly it! I want proof that I am not just imagining the nature of my relationships. Call it insecurity or what have you, but I want to see (on the outside) my power over my slave, and not just feel it (on the inside).

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to SexyRed)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:36:46 AM

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I have the same response as I had in the other thread. What if none of the things -he- needs a slave to do for him cause the slave to feel she is being made to suffer or that her her lot in life is a tough one.

What does being treated like property mean? I have been his property for 7 years, I have never been allowed to determine how *he* treats me or what his needs are..is this a common thing people are allowed to do? Tell the owner how to treat them? Do you say you to him/her I know you need me to do x but x is something I like so you need to come up with something else ? He is too alter what he owns a slave for so she can feel her slavery more? Not in this household, he does what he wants, if that makes me loathe the mere sight of him and my life oh well, if everything he needs/wants is cake and pie and makes me happy, same thing. If I want something different, I'm shit out of luck.

Edited to add:

Ownership here means I live absolutely under his authority as vetoless property. I impose no limits on his power or authority nor would he tolerate any. I make no independent decisions, I hold no authority over him nor can I impose my will upon him and demand he do anything. I can't make him treat me like I live in a deathcamp(which are his words on how I'd love to be kept) just because I don't like that my greatest hardship today islikely to be if the regular concierge is on or off or if they forget the mint on his on pillow(we are on vacation), He doesn't give a rats ass if I'd like my life a little tougher, this is about him.

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 7/20/2007 10:44:22 AM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:36:46 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

My question to you is, would you rather they do it and be distressed at having to do it (crying, bitching, etc) or is it ok if they just decide they can muscle through whatever it is and have a good attitude about it?

That depends on the kind of relationship I have formed with the slave. Elle and I keep several slaves at any one time, and each relationship is vastly different. For example, with out pet Kat (our current "live-in"), I actually enjoy the struggle she puts up when she has to clean the kitchen...I don't mind seeing the spoiled pet suffer a bit. Gives her character. In a more formal service-oriented relationship, like the one with my man-servant, I expect him to maintain a stiff upper lip and carry on. No tears allowed...no complaints.

Every relationship has its own unique challenges and rewards.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:37:34 AM

Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Hi

Personally i do not think that it really matters what you have been forced to do as what you can be forced to do. A Master may spoil his slave to no end, treating her like a princess, but if she is property she know all her luxery is not a given, it is a gift from her Master that he can take back, and two her out to sleep in the doghouse if he want to.

i love my hair that i have been growing out. it is not necessary for Master to order me to cut it of for me to be owned, but that he can order it to be cut of make me property. it is not necessary for me to suffer to be a slave, but it is necessary for me to suffer if he wish it for me to be a slave.

i wih you well

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:40:15 AM

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Joined: 8/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed
Not sure I understand this. Why do you need proof about something you are doing? Proof about what? that you really own a slave, not just "think" you do?

This is exactly it! I want proof that I am not just imagining the nature of my relationships. Call it insecurity or what have you, but I want to see (on the outside) my power over my slave, and not just feel it (on the inside).

Taggard

Well, then I am sorry to say that I feel it is insecurity to have to have physical or palpable evidence of something that is so intensely "felt" between two people. I liken this statement to old money vs. new money; or trying to buy class or taste.

You either have it or you do not. You either have ownership or you do not, you certainly do not need others to validate you, do you?

_____________________________

A trucker will slow down for a blonde, stop for a brunette, but back up 500 yards for a redhead!

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:41:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
That wasn't the original premise, but if the slave asks for something that unowned people could do without asking, it is, at least to me, evidence of ownership.

Taggard

From this it would suggest again that ownership is a matter of authority.

Suffering or lack thereof is irrelevant.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:42:51 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
But it's up to the owner to determine how to treat his or her property--not pundits on Collarme.

I am not so sure of that... Property has an objective meaning. You can treat your slave however you like, but there are only a limited number of fairly defined ways in which you can treat them like property.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:44:43 AM

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyRed
Not sure I understand this. Why do you need proof about something you are doing? Proof about what? that you really own a slave, not just "think" you do?

This is exactly it! I want proof that I am not just imagining the nature of my relationships. Call it insecurity or what have you, but I want to see (on the outside) my power over my slave, and not just feel it (on the inside).

Taggard

Well, then I am sorry to say that I feel it is insecurity to have to have physical or palpable evidence of something that is so intensely "felt" between two people. I liken this statement to old money vs. new money; or trying to buy class or taste.

You either have it or you do not. You either have ownership or you do not, you certainly do not need others to validate you, do you?

I have to agree. Valyraen and I feel that if you have to prove you own someone, you really don't.

Of course.. it is only our opinion.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to SexyRed)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:44:59 AM

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Are you really a slave if all you are ever forced to do is stuff you enjoy?

Well, I don't have to be forced to do stuff I enjoy.

However, in the spirit of the thread and question, being 'forced' to do stuff I don't like or which effects my squick factor just makes me hot. You know, hot like horny, drippy pussy hot. Sounds more like a slut than a slave but there it is. Basically, what I'm saying is that it isn't what I 'do' which determines what I am although it can certainly affect my ability to be in a relationship. If I don't 'do' what I'm supposed to do, I can be booted out the front door with a one way bus ticket and I really, truly don't want that to happen so I obey his will as I have agreed and as he expects.

quote:

As evidenced by the replies to the "sharing" question, many people believe that slavery or ownership is simply a state of mind.

I think of it as a state of being, but I get what you're saying.

quote:

All it takes to be a slave is the feeling that one is a slave. All it takes to be owned is the acknowledgment that one is owned. Is that really all there is to it?

I know it all sounds like it should be so complex and have all these dark, sadistic overtones or perhaps be all romantic and captive-like, (I'm all for hot pirate, kidnap me fantasy's!) but in reality, it really is simple if you desire it to be that way. There's no reason you can't twist it up to suit your own style and desires though and if you like doing 'proof' go for it. You're TallDarkAndWitty.. I wouldn't say no to that.

For me, submission is like falling off a log. It's not something I have to think about it just happens. If Himself thinks he's proving something by having me do things I don't like.. pretty much all he's gonna prove is he knows how to push my buttons and get me wet. I am what I am already and that's actually pretty well documented in our big book of relationships.

quote:

Ownership is one of my major kinks. I like knowing, in some real and objectvie way, that I actually do own my slave. Things like collars and brands turn me on to know end because they exist outside of my feelings and outside of any bond forged between myself and my slave. I like to share my slaves because it makes tangible the fact that they are property. As I said in the "sharing" thread, I can not loan what I do not own. Sure one can own something and not use it in the ways one uses real property (real in the sense of real estate), and sure there are other ways to highlight that one owns someone else. However, there is no question about the concept of ownership when a Master gives his slave away for a few hours.

I hear you and see no problem at all if you want to do that. If Himself wants to loan me out for some reason (although he's not very good about sharing his toys.. 1st born alpha child and all that), he certainly can and I would do so without question and just hope he lets me take a towel so I don't drip on the carpet. There's something to be said for having joy in your heart and absolutely loving what you are, embracing it and being the best you can be because of it.

quote:

The question of "suffering" is an interesting one as well. Whenever I begin negotiations with a slave, I make it very clear the "slavery is not always fun."

I'm glad that Himself doesn't think like that actually. Slavery is not always 'easy', but for me it's almost always fun in some way and when it's not particularly fun, it's damn sure to be educational. Win-win.. works really well for me.

quote:

For me, again, I like tangible evidence that the relationship I have with my property is Master/slave. This means that only forcing them to do things they want to do just won't cut it. I have to re-enforce the idea that they are slaves by throwing in some unpleasantness...otherwise, it is purely a subjective and theoretic Master/slave relationship.

Your point comes across loud and clear but I do have a question for you.. what do you do when you run across a slave who doesn't find much in life to be unpleasant or when faced with something unpleasant it turns them into a pile of goo?

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:47:17 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Because they didn't have to work to "feel that way" does that mean it's not enough of a struggle to call it submission/domination?

This discussion has very little to do with submission/domination, except in how slavery/ownership could be considered a specialization of d/s. D/s is a fuzzy term, and one which I wouldn't even try to deal with. Ownership, however, has a meaning that has not yet been overloaded by the BDSM world, and still, for the most part, means what it originally meant.

When I speak of slavery, I speak of human ownership, and not some fuzzy notion of domiantion and submission.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:47:23 AM

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I think, the majority of it lies within the mind. The difference between whether or not a person is treated as a partner or as an object begins there.

For clarification, I dont think a "martyr complex" or lack of a "martyr complex" defines suffering nor do I consider it an essential or even major part of my dynamic.

Just because I expressed that I find admiration and beauty in the fact that a slave is willing to endure unpleasantries for me doesnt necessarily translate that the relationship HAS to have unpleasantries to be "true" or "real".

In fact, thats a very small part of what I do. The main goal is happiness and fulfillment and enjoyment for both people.

However, without the occasional challenge, difficulty, or unpleasantry, there is no validation that the slave is in fact willing to suffer them to meet the contigency of obedience.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:53:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Your point comes across loud and clear but I do have a question for you.. what do you do when you run across a slave who doesn't find much in life to be unpleasant or when faced with something unpleasant it turns them into a pile of goo?

To answer that question, the presenting of challenges and unpleasantries doesnt mean their shouldnt be boundaries. Like all things in life, I feal there has to be a balance.

To quote an opinion of a friend that I completely agree with, a slave who wont enforce their own boundaries with a Master is the worst kind of slave to own.

As far as the other question, unpleasant is as subjective as pleasant. What would a Master do if they had a slave who found nothing pleasant when their goal was to make the life of the slave as pleasant as possible with gossimer pillows and slippers? I would say in both cases there is a good chance things wont work out because they arent a good match.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 7/20/2007 10:54:00 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:54:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
But it's up to the owner to determine how to treat his or her property--not pundits on Collarme.

I am not so sure of that... Property has an objective meaning. You can treat your slave however you like, but there are only a limited number of fairly defined ways in which you can treat them like property.

Taggard

A question: can property have feelings?

_____________________________

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Are you really owned if you are not treated like pr... - 7/20/2007 10:55:47 AM

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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um, does a dog or cat or turtle or goldfish or parakeet or------- have feelings? Then I can make an answer.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to kittinSol)

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