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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 5:40:47 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Is that it?  Holy fucking moly.  Then we better pass around some estrogen.

(in reply to Aileen68)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 5:45:56 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

She was a religious kook who cared more about someone's supposed salvation in the afterlife than the very real suffering they were undergoing at her hands (either because she gave substandard treatment or altogether withheld treatment she could have provided considering her financial resources).



If you haven't noticed yet.  In fact she was not really a religious kook after all.  That is how we portrayed her.  We were wrong.  She did not know there was a God at all, she was like all of us with out doubts.

She merely did what she thought was right.  One person cannot cure all of what ails the entire world.  Although some in this thread seem to think one can. 
That is why I posted to this thread to begin with.  Clearly she was a noble human being.  For no other reason than the fact she chose to be.  Not because she thought there was salvation.  Just because it was the way she chose to live her life.
So what, she didn't try to stop something she couldn't have stopped to begin with.  A country from trying to defend themselves if they were attacked.  Just like every other country out there who has the means to do so, defends themselves.
She took on tasks that she could handle.  Just like any other human being would do so who wanted to help.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 5:46:35 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		It annoys and amuses me that people are apparently able to compare (without thinking about the source, evidently) what they see or hear on YouTube, or what was written in a sensationalisitc book about her, that was written by some yellow journalist intent on pocketing the tons of money he will undoubtedly make defaming Mother Theresa (which is based on lots of innuendo and speculation, but sans any actual bona-fide proof - wonder where that money is going, eh? I'll bet it's not to the poor in India) - with how she's been evaluated by millions of others, TIME magazine, The Washington Post and the Nobel Peace Prize Committee. 

Comparing YouTube and the Nobel Peace Prize Committe is like (to me) comparing The Washington Post to the National Enquirer. 
 
- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 6:01:58 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Aileen68)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 5:56:06 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

One person cannot cure all of what ails the entire world.  Although some in this thread seem to think one can. 



No, there are those that post here that think their own shit doesn't stink, and anything that doesn't fit into the shallow and rapidly evaporating pool that is their beliefs is wrong. They're too fucking stupid, or weak, to admit that anyone or anything outside of their frame of reference has any value.
 
This is a very poor post of mine, but at the moment, I don't care.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:01:24 AM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		I've been hearing "not great" things about Mother Teresa for years, and after a very long but enlightening conversation with a bunch of students from various unis in India, now leave the subject well alone.

And to answer your second question, I volunteer for a hospice, and teach children from "challenging comprehensives" in London in a seemingly futile bid to raise educational standards there to the national average.  I'm one person, I don't have a PR machine or a Church at my back.  Sorry it's not quite so wide reaching.

Does that make my opinion more valid, or the fact that they used non sterile needles because clinics couldn't afford to buy new ones despite resources being potentially available more compelling as a "something's not right" issue?

Didn't think so.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:02:23 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Some spiritual confidante.

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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:09:12 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		My point is that those vehemently criticizing her seem to be are doing it based on:

1) A belief that life should always be fair. It's not. I realized this fact when I was about five years old.

2) An unrealisitic expectation that people in positons of fame, nobility or power should or can't or won't ever make mistakes - they've raised humna beings to Icon, non-human status somehow. This is an immature and ridiculous expectation.

3) Having a purely anti-religious agenda. That would be okay BUT - Religion isn't the issue here - life-time achievement is - and someone spending almost every waking hour attempting to aid the poor and dying is.

I volunteer, too. I do it about 10 hours a week. I don't compare this to Mother Theresa's achievements - and I'm not all pissed off nobody has offerred me a Nobel Peace Prize for it.

Even if I did it as a profession, 40 hours a week, I wouldn't be ticked off about that. Any other person who does get ticked, is, IMO being unrealisitic.

4) No real evidence. Show me realistic, on paper, business accounting proof she mis-apropriated money and I will get hugely upset. Until then, I just won't.

5) Believing everything they read or see on YouTube, or read in a book without questioning the source. I think this is stupid, but believe what you want.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 7:08:39 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to IvyMorgan)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:13:05 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		You forget the Human Rights Violations. Namely, that Basic Medical Care should not be withheld, simply because the dying person has accepted baptism, and will go to whatever place this crazy bitch thought they'd be better off in, than being alive.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:14:46 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


She won a Nobel Peace Prize


So? Henry Kissinger got one for bombing Cambodia. What's your point?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:15:56 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I am still wondering how some...can belittle her massive efforts and sacrifice...


Personally, this slave never met the woman, but have noticed in general that One-True-Way-er's tend to get belittled...a LOT.  especially when it comes to discussing what they "go through" for those of us who don't agree with their Ways(dogma). 

quote:

I think that even if those who seem to think she is evil, while you do have a right to your opinion, and she wasn't a perfect human being , I think you're way, way off-base.


evil?  maybe...but how about, at minimum, no better than the rest of us poor pagan babies.  having never met her, this slave can only go by the stories written about her and her organization. she represented an organization that degrades, demeans and preferentially treats certain "special" people with their dogma amidst all of the alleviation of suffering that they purport and that the current leader could change at any given moment...being the duly elected mouthpiece of God and all.  it doesn't seem to this slave to be anything to brag about.
 
the whole creepy "bride of Christ" thing doesn't sit well with this slave, however, serving an earthly Master doesn't sit well with certain folks, either, so to each their own on that one, eh?
 
this slave also doesn't believe any human being on the planet should qualify as infallible, and/or MORE worthy of the Great Architect's or another human being's favor simply because of any particular religious affiliation, skin color, gender, socio-economic status, physical handicap, how many souls they won for the Lord.
 
as for the stories of her clinics repeatedly using the same needles over and over again and not for the lack of funds but to encourage more suffering...this slave will have to take those with a grain of salt, but, given her willing association with the HRCC and their background, it wouldn't suprise this slave if it, and other accusations about her unethical sadism were, in fact, true.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:19:16 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		She consciously used non-sterilized hypodermic needles on her victims. Such a person is not a saint, but a promulgator of diseases, suffering and death. That makes her a mass murderer - one that got away with it.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/25/2007 6:23:24 AM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:21:50 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Few news sources are turning out to be very reliable. But for the most part I am okay with sources like BBC, Lancet, Stern, Der Speigel, and a few others. In case some of you don't know this already - the news media is for sale. The news now has a series of other names it goes by, it can variously be called propaganda, a public relations release, product placement, disinformation, infotainment, and yellow journalism. In sum, a lot of it is crap most of the time because the powers that be are "manufacturing consent".

I admit I am surprised this charlatan was given a Nobel, but as others have pointed out it is a rather politicized award at this point in time. I can't agree that everyone that has received a Nobel was worthy of what the prize actually represents.

So it happens that I don't buy the hype about this Teresa person. She seems perfectly hateful to me, but I did not know her personally - I am just going by sources I find reliable (like the quoted Lancet). Your mileage may vary...

I don't come to these forums to divulge, or to have a pissing contest about, my personal information. And yes, I feel free to criticize whatever and whomever the fuck I like as I see fit.

Sorry for dumping all over your "saint" but she comes across as a person more demonic in her nature than was originally known. The toppling of this figure doesn't mean anything special to me. I am not invested in any way. But if I heard of someone else doing the same things, I would be just as critical.

(in reply to MHOO314)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:22:15 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		farglebargle - I already covered this - the woman was a Catholic nun. If she with held basic medical care - show me Proof.  Also, even if she did - show me it wasn't somehow related to her Catholic belief system and I will be upset. If someone is a Catholic nun, they don't believe in birth control either. But that is to be expected. If this upsets some people - at the very least it should not surprise them. If they've got a problem with it - oh well.

In any case, it still does not negate (to me) the fact the woman spent almost every waking hour past age 25 in the hell-holes of Calcutta living in non-glamorus conditions, doing something to try to help the poort and dying the best way she knew how. **If it does for you - then remind me never to apply for a submissive position with you- because it doesn't sound liek a fair way to judge anyone's work.

She wasn't exactly living at the Ritz-Carlton hotel for those 62 years. She was living in a practically unfurnished room with no air conditioning, minimal food, with a pretty strict personal regimen. She got up at 4: 30 am every morning to make sure she could attend to the hundreds lined up at her mission(s). When you do the same kinds of things - I will be glad to listen to your criticisms re: What an awful, evil person she was.  

Yes. Abraham Lincoln was a "One-True-Wayer" too - at least after 1964, in reference to the question of legal slavery. A lot of people hated him during the Civil war, as I recall. How about nobody gets to be jealous that some people in the world win Nobel Peace prizes, and some don't? She would have been the last person to even think she deserved the award. They gave it to her anyway

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 7:11:47 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:27:27 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Evil is indefatigable.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:34:21 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I am just too tired to write much more about this. People are gonna believe what they are gonna beleive.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:34:29 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
It annoys and amuses me that people are apparently able to compare (without thinking about the source, evidently) what they see or hear on YouTube, or what was written in a sensationalisitc book about her, that was written by some yellow journalist intent on pocketing the tons of money he will undoubtedly make defaming Mother Theresa (which is based on lots of innuendo and speculation, but sans any actual bona-fide proof - wonder where that money is going, eh? I'll bet it's not to the poor in India) - with how she's been evaluated by millions of others, TIME magazine, The Washington Post and the Nobel Peace Prize Committee. 

Comparing YouTube and the Nobel Peace Prize Committe is like (to me) comparing The Washington Post to the National Enquirer. 
 
- Susan  


Well said.
 
And have you noticed that if you question these accusers, these same people accuse you of being in the "Mother Theresa Propaganda" camp.
 
You know, I have no idea if she is a bad chick or not. If she is, there is a good chance she will have it coming in the end. That said, I'm certainly not going to make a case against her based on a book by a second rate thinker like Christopher Hitchens, and all the other sharks in the water that came out after his book came out.
 
Do some of her hospitals fall well below standards. I'm sure they do. I bet half the nursing homes in the richest country on the planet do also. Perhaps we should write a book condemning the Surgeon General.
 
Does she believe in faith healing. I'm sure she does. So does, by the way, the most intelligent, educated woman I know.
 
I too have a question. Do people like Mr. Hitchens, pay people to use their statements in books? Don't bother responding ... we already know the answer.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:34:40 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		SusanofO:

Taking your above points in turn:

1) Irrelevant. Fairness in life is not at issue in anything I said.

2) Irrelevant. I just want her aid and help for the poor to be true as per the propaganda. Apparently, it's all bullshit.

3) "Religion isn't the issue here - life-time achievement is - and someone spedning almost every waking hour attempting to aid the poor and dying is." Religion is absolutely at issue when she withheld medical services and painkillers from people in pain and instead gave them some song and dance about Jesus kissing them. WTF? And yes, "attempting" would be the right word here...but what aid did she REALLY try to provide. Salvation does not trump proper medical care. Sorry.

4) "Show me realistic, on paper, business accounting proof she mis-apropriated money and I will get hugely upset. Until then, I just won't." Great! We're online so the wait is going to be quite long for that real world paper trail...

5) Some fairly reliable sources were cited. Don't want to grant those sources credibility - don't.


(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:36:12 AM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		1.  Life really isn't fair.

2.  There's mistakes, and there's knowingly doing something wrong.  Using non sterile needles, and all the other "reported in the Lancet" medical conditions stuff, that's not a mistake, that's knowingly doing something wrong.  And as far as I'm aware, the Catholic church doesn't have a negative position on pain medication and is very pro Palliative care in place of say, euthanaisa etc.

3.  I'm not anti religious.

And she can hardly have been so bent on helping if she was knowingly employing such practices as outlined above.  And that's just dismissing the finances thing for the moment.

4.  Hand kept financial records that are systemactically destroyed are hard to reproduce.  Handy that, and, shockingly, something that *people who know they are doing something wrong* tend to do.  But you'll have to take the word of the nuns who made them that they exit(ed).

5.  The Lancet - Peer Review, kinda reputable.
    The BBC - okay, going through a rough patch, but we pay our license fee so they can report reasonably unimpeeded on things that are important.
    Indian research students.  Lots of them.  Hardly likely to insult someone wonderful without good reason.  Heck, they won't say bad things about Ghandi...

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:38:58 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		caitlyn: Thanks. I appreciate that.

Ivy: Ya' know - people writing a book can dig up a few horrific examples of stuff that did actually go wrong - and make millions off that. Do you believe everything you read? Even if it did happen - this goes back to expecting perfection of humans.  Show me it happened systemcatically to thousands or hundreds, day in and day out on patients all the time, for an extended period of time - and then I might be upset. Plus - show me PROOF. And actually, part of getting a Nobel Peace Prize requires extreme vetting under pretty stringent standards by a committee for months and months. Judging can be subjective - sure - but it still takes months and it's still done by many people. Think they didn't consider her lack of modern book-keeping? You're wrong. 
 
SugarMyChurro: I cannot have a battle of wits with you. But if you don't mind, I'd rather not say why - let's just say I don't consider someone's unsubstantiated opinions on a message board to equate with the vetting of a Nobel Peace Prize committee. Iif you're gonna expect me to listen - show me some actual proof.

**Religion is not an issue - your acceptance of someone's decision to live under their own religious ideas that vary from yours, yet still being able to do some good might be an issue though - where do you get off telling someone else under any religion what they can and cannot do - in a foreign country at that?
 
And more importantly need it be mentioned that these poeple were there on a voluntary basis? Were they prisoners? Was Mother Theresa arrested by the Indian government? Was she investigated? If so -why (or why not). I am not gonna do your research for you bud - do your dirty work yourself. 

Stop being so lazy and go look up some evidence and cite it on this message board. I don't need to do that - I am basing it on the thread by level that was proivded in the original post on this thread - plus my Cathoic background, and also her getting a Nobel Peace Prize You apparently failed to read the article in the original post, or didn't think you needed to do. You are just spouting off, and I gotta go.I need some sleep, and have to go get some.

I will part with admitting that - we are all certainly entitled to our own POV. PLUS: **Back to the original question? - How many people here have spent the same amount of time trying to help the poor and dying?

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 7:15:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 6:48:50 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		I missed all except the last couple of sentences, but NPR just did a short piece on Mother Teresa this morning.

I would like to read actual accounts of her misdeeds if they can be found.

Until then, I hold back any judgement because I simply don't have enough information.

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 60
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