RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul

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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:15:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
For whatever reason you want to cling to the idea that Teresa was a very good person. The rest of us just don't see any persuasive evidence of that. The Nobel doesn't mean shit.

This is a response to a point that nobody really made.

The only point made, is that you shouldn't accept accusations, without proof ... accusations for profit, at that. Believe it or not, there are some of us in this world, that will never see this as an acceptable standard. I would rather see a hundred guilty people go free, than a single innocent one, become the victim of a smear campaign (hypothetical example). Consider that the Oliver Wendell Holmes, in me.

Show proof ... real proof, and the accusations will have meaning. Show proof, real proof, and I will be on the fry Theresa band wagon. Until then, these acusations have no meaning, past the sensational.

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I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:19:30 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I am not debating you on this topic anymore, SugarMyChurro. Not to"jump the gun" on the next insult I am sure you will sling in my direction,

Must have been in other threads. I just reread all his posts in this thread and did not see any insult at whomever at all.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:20:16 AM

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SugarMyChurro: I would, but it's not the topic. Nobody said she was "more important" than Ghandi. That is not the debate (to me).

The topic is: How some crap from a very biased news source, sans proof,.nd which has a commercial goal as its end - and basically that doesn't in any way compare with a Nobel committee's scrutiny, would ever negate 62 years of someone's life spent trying in the best way someone knew how, to aid the poor and dying, while maybe screwing up once or twice, and managing the whole time to live in complete poverty themselves.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 10:35:44 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:21:09 AM

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Oh please. Theresa doesn't need any defense: she has one of the largest publicity machines behind her. She's doing just fine up there, cooing with the angels.

How about we devote our energy defending people who really need us? For example, prisoners of war at Guantanamo Bay? They were deemed guilty without proof too. Yet, strangely enough, I hear little vociferous calls for justice made in their names.

Let your calling guide you, my child

.

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(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:22:53 AM

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The woman worked 60+ years in poverty and in unsanitary conditions with the intention to help others. Recent developments show her as a person who struggled with her belief system (how humble and self critical can one person be--gasp!)
She was clearly a monster.

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 8/25/2007 10:26:46 AM >

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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:23:44 AM

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I thought he was very hostile. We are not reading the same posts, then, Rule. Besides - why would your perceptions change mine?

UR2Badored: Thank you.!!
- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 10:27:23 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:26:51 AM

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What could possibly constitute real proof on the internet? The best we can hope for is a battle of links. I've cited Stern which in turn cited Lancet. Of course, my link is just as dubious as Wiki or any other internet source. Every news source is in doubt. From the BBC on down. I've just shown that the Nobel is all crap.

What shall our standard be?

For my part, I see no real proof that Teresa was a very nice person at all. The same sourcing problems exist on the other side of this situation.

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:28:33 AM

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I'm not defending her ... is that so hard to understand? Wait, never mind ... I already know that answer.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:28:41 AM

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SugarMyChurro: Really? Did you truly show the Nobel is crap? Wow -you are one hell of a debater. I must have missed that.

A Nobel is awarded based on circumstances and events that take place up to the time it is awarded, obviously. That I even have to mention this is laughable. It still requires considerable vetting to recieive, and within a pool of contenders that receive just as much, for months on end, from people with no commericalized goal whatsoever.

Your opinion of Kissinger, or consequent historical events, or anyone's opinion of them have no bearing on that. For one thing, the two prizes, (for Kissinger and Mother Theresa), if even for Nobel Peace - cover two very different areas of concern. But especially since your entire point of debate is based on a few biased and questionable news sources.

And even if your opinion is that it's crap - *how would that negate a life spent in complete poverty, trying to aid the poor and dying the best way one knew how? Starting over 600 missions, and hundreds of Hospices? Not trying to convert anyone to Catholicism as a condition for aid?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 11:21:50 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:33:43 AM

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Excerpt from "Mother Teresa and the politics of charity"
by Terry Cook, International Worker No 240, Saturday October 11, 1997
http://www.socialequality.org.uk/iw/240/4b240.shtml

Mother Teresa promoted the reactionary philosophy that the masses should resign themselves to their fate with subservience and humility. That is why donations flowed in to her order from the wealthy and powerful. Among them were dictators responsible for the most atrocious levels of poverty in their own countries, including the Duvaliers in Haiti and Enver Hoxha in Albania. She also accepted a $1.7 million donation from Charles Keating, the Californian businessman jailed for embezzling $346 million in savings funds.

When she was asked in 1981 to explain her doctrine on poverty, the good mother replied: "I think it very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor."

She once told a crowd of lepers that their affliction was a "gift from god" and contended that there was a "mystery and a gift about suffering".

The saintly mother opposed any project that would challenge the reliance of the destitute on charity or provide them with dignity or independence. She railed against abortion and birth control and opposed spending money on clean water and sanitation. As one commentator said: "The House of the Dying in Calcutta was just that."

A far greater portion of the funds she received went to the establishment of missionaries and convents than to medical services, hospices and orphanages. In 1994 Dr Robin Fox, the then editor of the prestigious medical journal The Lancet, scathingly dismissed the order's so-called medical facilities. "Souls not bodies are the grist of her mill of faith," he said.

Whenever an incident exposed the real relations in class society and threatened to raise the masses to their feet, Mother Teresa was on hand to counsel submission. In Bhopal, India, 6,000 people died and thousands more were blinded by toxic gasses in 1984 in the world's worst industrial disaster. The catastrophe was the direct result of corporate cost-cutting by Union Carbide. The advice of Mother Teresa to the victims of this atrocity was: "Forgive, forgive, forgive".

Such proclamations illuminate the very essence of the charitable work of figures such as Mother Theresa. Its only lasting result is to prolong the existence of the economic system that gives rise to society's problems in the first place. To those who remain unconvinced we recommend the compelling lines written by the author and poet Oscar Wilde:

"We are often told that the poor are grateful for charity. Some of them are, no doubt, but the best amongst the poor are never grateful. They are ungrateful, discontented, disobedient and rebellious. They are quite right to be so. Charity they feel to be a ridiculously inadequate mode of partial restitution, or sentimental dole, usually accompanied by some impertinent attempt on the part of the sentimentalists to tyrannise over their private lives."

"Why should they be grateful for the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table? They should be seated at the board, and are beginning to know it. As for being discontented, a man who would not be discontented with such surroundings and such a low mode of life would be a perfect brute.

"Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and rebellion."

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:36:04 AM

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SusanofO:

I have heard it said, "None are so blind as those that will not see."

And yes, I think I did show that the Nobel was basically crap. Yes, you did miss it.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 8/25/2007 10:43:25 AM >

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RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:39:16 AM

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Using fast reply.....

First of all, anyone that knows me well knows that my opinion of most organized religiouns is pretty low and that I personally view the catholic church as one of the greatest evils in existance. That being said, I always find it humorous when there are such really STRONG emotions that go into immediate overboil anytime a religious figurehead of any sort is criticised. It seems that those that have a strong belief that is aligned with that figurehead, feels any criticism is an immediate person attack on them and their very existance. Emotions go wacky and out of control to be followed by much rediculously out of control blather. Making intelligent, constructive, adult debate impossible. In general, people make fools of themselves. Only in politics and religioun do I see this.

I have begun to wonder more and more why this is. Does it threaten their own identity? Does it come dangerously close to exposing their own doubts and pick at a scab covering a very sensitive nerve? I suppose it varies person to person. Call me weird but I enjoy these sorts of debates because I learn alot from them. Regardless of wether I change my opinion or not.

I saw some hypocrisy in a statement made on this post, someone said that each was entitled to their own opinion yet continued to berate those that did not share their opinion. If everyone is entitled to one, then why refuse to validate in anyway the existance of such or the value of such?

Personally, I don't know much of anything about the religious celeb in question. I honestly do not care to. I have yet to learn about a religious figurehead that did not in some way seek out their fame and bask in it. That did not take advantage of it in some way or other. I cannot imagine this woman was any different.

I know there are millions of human beings all over this planet that do amazingly unselfish deeds for their fellow human every single day. We will never know of most of them. I assume they don't make good news or they are just too busy caring about their cause to chase after the limelight.

I also believe that unless a person is born to it (even though I have a personal belief about this also ) the greater percentage of people that become famous become so because they want to be there. I have seen too much evidence that people can do great good, usually more and in a much more productive fashion, by avoiding fame. Sort of flying under the radar, so to speak. This leads me to believe that those that become famous usually do so by choice, and usually for some selfish personal agenda. Not that that is always a bad thing, but to deny is or claim that it is entirely selfless is probably less than honest.

The reality is that we are all human and we all share similar issues in some form or other. I think to put any one person on a pedestal based upon fame, regardless of how it became so, is dangerous. I also sincerely doubt that the person in question was so perfect that she never said a snarky or misinformed bit of bitching about another person. I doubt that she hated her importance or the fame she gained regardless of what she accomplished because of it.......good or bad. Probably, as in everything, it was a mixture of both. The great pile of BS that calls itself the almighty catholic church can call her a saint all they want. As far as I am concerned she was only human with all that comes with that condition.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 10:55:50 AM

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LaTigresse: They certainly are entitled to their own opinion. To cite someone else's sig line on here:

"You are entitled to your own opinions - but not your own facts". - Alan Greenspan.

Some people don't truly understand what this means, at its deepest level. But I think I do (I know I do).

This thread was begun by Level - the original intent was to mention the good things Mother Theresa managed to do in her life - to make attacking her the very first option someone dives into - without even botherng to read the information that was cited by the OP within the original post, as their first option - is something I find insulting. And it's what many seemed to want to do (and I am a fallen aka "retired" Catholic myself).

If someone wants to debate - then they better be prepared to do it. There is a difference between merely disagreeing, and genuine debate (which I can certainly do).

Now some of those who apparently don't think her existence meant much at all - in terms of trying to do any good for humanity, seem to be whining that those of us who who do - are bothering to respond to their earlier comments. Oh well. Seems fair enough to me.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 11:23:30 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 11:04:45 AM

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Yes Susan, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even you, and even if I think you are wrong. I am still not going to try to make you feel like an imbecile for your opinion.

As for facts, this is yet another case of, NO ONE will EVER have ALL of the facts. And, just like the bible, even if we did have all the facts.........each person's interpretation of said facts would be slightly skewed based upon their own belief system.

The problem is that you are passionate about your beliefs and feel threatened by words that do not agree with your beliefs. If you did not feel threatened by them you would not react with such negativity towards anyone that does not share your beliefs. Yes, you are entitled to such feelings and of course such reaction. Just as I am entitled to mine and everyone else is.

The point I am trying to make is that, it is not necessary to try and tear down opposing views and the people that have them, just to validate your own.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 11:13:23 AM

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SugarMyChurro: I am done here. I have addressed every single thing mentioned by you in other posts on this thread. Her Catholic belief system (and how it affected her POV, perhaps). I don't consider it relevant in any way - but I already addressed it, in any case. MaybeI am just less bent on seeing the world via a cynical lens. You continue to state negative opinion without any actual real proof.

Your article in your latest post(cited as "evidence" of her wrong-doing) simply does not negate an entire life of 62 years, living in complete poverty, spent in aid to the poor and dying - starting 600 missions, and hundreds of hospices, and not making anyone convert to Catholicism to qualify for help.

Perhaps you think citing one or two examples is anywhere near proof things like this were systemic throughout her missions (one POV is hardly proof it's systemic in all of her missions. The fact she is one human, and couldn't possibly oversee what went on in every single one, all the time has already been mentioned by caitlyn).

Do you think that a bunch of nuns desperate to help the poor and dying, and living in poverty were concerned about being political banners and being all PC? Do you think that they truly knew or could have predicted that some might later turn out to be criminals when they mailed in their donations? Or that she wasn't meeting another county's particular political "agenda"?

And for all you know - those donations were anonymous at the time they were made? Did you see them? Were you there? See what I mean about hopw speculation can be made to look like real journalism? Where's the PROOF wrong-doing actually occurred? If you look throught he smoke and mirrors - there really isn't any.

I suggest you learn how to be slightly more discrriminating in the conclusions to which you leap - espcially when smearing someone's good name - eanred via years of back-breaking work, and living in complete poverty.

Btw, she didn't locate in India because it was or wasn't PC at the time. She located there (and later in 600 other missions, and over 200 hospices around the world as well -which you'd know if you'd bothered yourself to read the OP's original accompanying article on her life and work) because that's where she was "called" and that's where she perceived the greatest need at the beginning. but she had 600 other issions and over 200 hospices in othe locations.

But - worker # XXXXX, the author of your citation (btw, it's questitonable to rely on someone who won't even give their own name as the author of an article - if they need to remain anonymous - how reliable can they relly be as a source?) In any case, their POV, is just that - one POV - and from just one mission, at one point in time. I believe caitlyn already made this point. It amounts to sensationalistic journalism - but I am certain you won't believe me.

Since you obviously don't get it, I will make it again: This is one report, and an anonymous one at that, it doesn't consitute proof anything reported was systemic or even enduring, and it is from a political website.

It certainly doesn't negate the scrutiny required over time, to receive a Nobel Peace prize, much less an entire life's work under the conditions hers was lived.

Perhaps you believe that smearing someone's good name, or having particular political goals, make this reference count.

It doesn't. The Socialist party, or a "news" article cited from their website that, btw - could well have been a partial quote - or taken completely out of context. Yes, being poor is seen as blessed in one of the Beatitudes - "Blessed are the poor, for they are childen of God, and shall inherit the Earth." It's screwing with context.
If you cannot see this, and don't understand why a Catholic nun might ever say this - than you are truly a dim bulb. If you insist on making it an issue twice - don't bother - I've already been over it once in another post.

This article citation of yours still doesn't equal an entire Nobel committee's scrutiny, or negate her good intent, or accomplishments. I've covered that, as well. So did the OP's orignal article citation in the opening post on this thread (which you obviously did not bother to read).Sorry to disappoint you.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 12:14:29 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 11:16:40 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I thought he was very hostile.

He is not spiritually aware and hence has some issues with the concept of religion, as well probably with particular practices of religions. But then the vulture of Calcutta was not spiritually aware either, was she?
His slight hostility was not directed at you, but at religion. He always was matter of fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
We are not reading the same posts, then, Rule.

You are a subjective reader, responding to perceived emotion. I am an objective reader, paying attention to what is actually said. Both perspectives have advantages and disadvantages. The problem with emotional readers is that they sometimes are emotionally right when they are factually wrong - which disqualifies their emotional right. Objective readers have a different problem: they are always emotionally wrong, whether they are factually right or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Besides - why would your perceptions change mine?

Quite: why? That is not for me to tell, but for you to discover.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 11:36:02 AM

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Sorry Rule - it didn't work then second time you tried it, either.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 12:24:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Of the two cases I feel sorriest for those that cannot even recognize the conditions of their own lives and instead stick their heads in the clouds and fantasize about some delusion of an afterlife. It's no trick to be pious when you simultaneously deny every moment of your conscious existence and cover it over with foolishness.

Your saints are all fluff and no substance.

Yes, LaTigresse, I didn't consider this opening comment from SugarMyChurro as insulting in any way. I considered an even-handed and intellectually-intriguing debating point, backed up with evidence.

I am not threatened. I actually do think he's a terrible debater. He began his comments all huffing and puffing and ready to blow someone down - but what he has to say simply does not stand up to very heavy intellectual scrutiny. That us what I believe is required for real debate. If he cannot take the heat himself - then he should not start the fire, IMO.

Furthermore - why would anyone bother to post on a thread at all like this, if all they were going to do was vehemently disagree (sans real evidence for an opposing argument) with the OP from comment one?

And on a thread the OP made very clear (with much more evidence in an accompanying article citing her life's work) was about her massive accomplisments?

More importantly, he spent the entire thread selectively quoting biased and questionable "news" sources that saddled her life's work (which had no political agenda - and weren't obligated to have one - she was a Catholic nun for heaven's sake, not a Congressman) with the responsibility for his own religious and political agenda while he did it.

My bad. Oops. My apologies.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 1:12:03 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 1:09:25 PM

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So Mother Theresa was in India tending to the poor for 62 years.
Doesn't anyone in here see something wrong with that?
An outsider of a totally different religion tending to the poor in India.
I mean isn't and wasn't the Indian government embarrassed by that?
And, I don't think anything's changed one iota in those 62 years.
I think the fault lyes totally with the Indian govt.
You have to look at the big picture (macro) here.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul - 8/25/2007 1:19:14 PM

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No Popeye. Why would that be true? I mail donations to World Vision charitable organization - and I am neither a staving Ethiopian child, nor am I a Hindu - the child receiving some of those donations is, though. I am not a nurse, but I donate to the Red Cross.

She never forced anyone to convert to Catholicism as a requirement of receiving aid. If some of the people helping her in her work, chose to convert to Catholicism, that's due to influence, not force. She never made that a requirment of anyone working for or with her,either. People who deliberately choose to see it otherwise, due to some anti-religious or political agenda of their own, are a wee bit too cynical and un-thinking for my taste. Of course that is just one person's opinion. Just my two cents.

You think nothing's changed with her influence? Maybe not - although starting 600 missions. many to help the dying and over 200 hospices around the world, not simply in India - that's pretty good start, I think. What was she supposed to be changing? She's a nun. Anyway -where's your proof that her efforts helped nobody? That her life is a complete waste? She won a Nobel Peace Prize, didn't she?

Have you even bothered to read this entire thread? or the OP's oriignal article about her life's work?

If "nothing's changed" - than maybe she's braver than I thought. The poor and dying who have already died, that she helped, still needed the help at the time, even if they are now dead. How depressing to work under those conditions, knowing there will always be more of them? That doesn't exactly sound all wussy to me. And I gotta go.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/25/2007 1:46:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to popeye1250)

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