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RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 7:21:07 AM

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Joined: 7/8/2004
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Ah, but Ghita, as a sub you will not have been allowed to read the 'good dom's rule book of laws'!! Therefore you will not have read that 'persons or others must not do things that the safety police, BDSM priests and the elders of CM do not agree with'. (pg147a, para2.1.5.3, section 412, sub-section 29a.1b). This especially applies to big bangy things that might scare the poor souls, (pg147a, para2.1.5.3, section 412, sub-section 29a.1d).

You'll also have missed the whole page about how guns can never be safe, 'cos we said so', (pg187q, ), or that only guns will ever be involved in any type of accidental injury, (pg189).

It is a well documented fact that although travelling in a car is statistically more dangerous than gunplay, that those who are into BDSM are immune from such facts and that only gunplay has any type of danger attached for them.

Should you be allowed to look at pg1782, you'll notice a reference to the notes on pg1829, this shows the irrefutable proof that within the BDSM community there are dark forces at work which can magically change dummy bullets into live ammo, that even a gun checked as empty by 87 people, all experts with 93 years gun experience, sealed in a steel gunsafe and set in 8 cubic yards of concrete, will be fully loaded with .357 magnum ammo, (and with armour piercing and explosive heads, no less), when removed from the said concrete and safe. (incidently, the gun will be cabable of firing .357 ammo, regardless of what calibre it was when sealed into the safe).

You will then see how a gun which is perfectly safe out hunting or on the range etc., becomes a very, very dangerous thing when taken into the bedroom for gunplay. Of course it will remain safe if taken into the bedroom for any other reason. (pg 9472, section 937, sect4001, subsection 2).

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 7:38:48 AM

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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I don't even know why we are having this discussion. We've already determined that as long as the parties are both in consent(regardless of whether or not that consent can be considered valid), they can break each other's bones, pour gas on each other and set them on fire...or play with loaded weapons and even shoot each other....and as a community we are supposed to give a rallying cry of YKINMK but YKIOK and wish them well on their journey.

Viva! BDSM and all that shit...

_____________________________

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(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 7:43:04 AM

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Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jayxkes

Ah, but Ghita, as a sub you will not have been allowed to read the 'good dom's rule book of laws'!! Therefore you will not have read that 'persons or others must not do things that the safety police, BDSM priests and the elders of CM do not agree with'. (pg147a, para2.1.5.3, section 412, sub-section 29a.1b). This especially applies to big bangy things that might scare the poor souls, (pg147a, para2.1.5.3, section 412, sub-section 29a.1d).

You'll also have missed the whole page about how guns can never be safe, 'cos we said so', (pg187q, ), or that only guns will ever be involved in any type of accidental injury, (pg189).

It is a well documented fact that although travelling in a car is statistically more dangerous than gunplay, that those who are into BDSM are immune from such facts and that only gunplay has any type of danger attached for them.

Should you be allowed to look at pg1782, you'll notice a reference to the notes on pg1829, this shows the irrefutable proof that within the BDSM community there are dark forces at work which can magically change dummy bullets into live ammo, that even a gun checked as empty by 87 people, all experts with 93 years gun experience, sealed in a steel gunsafe and set in 8 cubic yards of concrete, will be fully loaded with .357 magnum ammo, (and with armour piercing and explosive heads, no less), when removed from the said concrete and safe. (incidently, the gun will be cabable of firing .357 ammo, regardless of what calibre it was when sealed into the safe).

You will then see how a gun which is perfectly safe out hunting or on the range etc., becomes a very, very dangerous thing when taken into the bedroom for gunplay. Of course it will remain safe if taken into the bedroom for any other reason. (pg 9472, section 937, sect4001, subsection 2).

OMG...LMAO! Thanks Jay, I needed a laugh like that!

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(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 7:52:36 AM

Posts: 138
Joined: 7/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I don't even know why we are having this discussion. We've already determined that as long as the parties are both in consent(regardless of whether or not that consent can be considered valid), they can break each other's bones, pour gas on each other and set them on fire...or play with loaded weapons and even shoot each other....and as a community we are supposed to give a rallying cry of YKINMK but YKIOK and wish them well on their journey.

Viva! BDSM and all that shit...

Methinks that reaction to the almost hysterical objection to gunplay, is about the 'experts' telling us that guns can nenver be safe, we shouldn't do it etc. Which is all just so much farm manure!

I'd guess most of us are all in favour of non damaging play, just that being lectured to, and quoted out of context sayings and examples etc really rankles.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 8:19:39 AM

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I don't even know why we are having this discussion. We've already determined that as long as the parties are both in consent(regardless of whether or not that consent can be considered valid), they can break each other's bones, pour gas on each other and set them on fire...or play with loaded weapons and even shoot each other....and as a community we are supposed to give a rallying cry of YKINMK but YKIOK and wish them well on their journey.

Viva! BDSM and all that shit...

Riiiiight... and when they wind up on the evening news, who'll be yelling 'But that's not Twue BDSM, they're making us look bad!'..?

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 8:24:54 AM

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jayxkes

Methinks that reaction to the almost hysterical objection to gunplay, is about the 'experts' telling us that guns can nenver be safe, we shouldn't do it etc. Which is all just so much farm manure!

I'd guess most of us are all in favour of non damaging play, just that being lectured to, and quoted out of context sayings and examples etc really rankles.

But not enough to stop you from doing it to other people, hmmm?

The claims made here were that it takes work, accurate knowledge, and common sense to engage in this sort of play safely... a position you have spun into straw as 'They hysterically said never do it, they said guns can never be made safe'.

(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 8:47:36 AM

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Methinks that reaction to the almost hysterical objection to gunplay, is about the 'experts' telling us that guns can nenver be safe, we shouldn't do it etc. Which is all just so much farm manure!

Methinks you need to reread this thread.

For example, my central argument was stated fairly succinctly near the start of this thread:

quote:

Do not use a real firearm. If it can fire...it's dangerous. It may be obvious, but it should still be said. Guns are not toys, and they are not for "playing".

Perversely enough, the bolded statement has not been challenged anywhere in this thread.

Later, I amplified my position thus:

quote:

Do I believe that using a real firearm (one that can fire) is edge play "done safely"? Absolutely, categorically, unequivocally NOT.

In no way, shape, or form is the firearm itself even at issue. The question is not whether a firearm can be made "safe", but what constitutes safe handling of a firearm, and whether safe handling is feasible within a BDSM scene.

Mr Discipline and RRafe have articulated ways in which they believe safe handling can be achieved. I am unpersuaded their measures sufficiently account for potential human error, given the extreme consequence (death) of even a trivial mistake. That is a far cry, however, from saying that guns are never safe.

In all examples the safety issue is in the handling of the firearm, not the firearm itself. To dismiss the debate with a sneering summarization of "guns can never be safe" is woefully, even irrationally, inaccurate.

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(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 9:12:51 AM

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I think it is really sad that this discussion turned the way it did. As with ANYTHING that we do, there are risks. Yes, there are many things that can be done to minimize those risks, but no one can EVER eliminate all of the risks. Hence SSC or RACK or whatever other acronym you want to make up for "don't be stupid".

Can a gun (real or fake) ever be made 100% safe? No.
Are there steps that can be taken to significantly reduce the risks? Yes.

Gun play is no different than anything else that we do. It has a degree of risk. Those risks can be reduced. This thread was supposed to be about sharing knowledge and experience about identifying and reducing those risks - yes, that includes the "I think it is too risky" responses as well. Sadly it turned into a collection of arguments that I seriously doubt will help the OP make informed and educated decisions about gun play and whether or not to participate in it.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 9:21:33 AM

Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
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I'd have to agree with the statement that a gun is always dangerous, even when unloaded. With out proper handling and care you can hurt your self and others. I personally think only a moron would consider any gun any where at any time safe. Before any one flies off the handle and starts saying that I have no idea what im talking about, should know that I have been safely handling guns since I was strong enought to hold one. I carry, and sometimes use, guns daily as a part of my job, and in my own first hand exp. the only time I have ever seen anyone(me) get hurt/shot was when some moron with no gun safety freaked out. Guns are only truely safe when melted down in to manhole covers.

As refferance to an above post Dummy Ammo is very dangerous. Even rubber bullets can kill. For refural look up the death of Brian Lee, or U.S. riots.
Other types of dummy rounds such as Blanks(AKA Bangers) Are extremely dangerous at even mildly close proximaty and should never be pointed at people. The problem is that Bangers have all the power of real bullets and the air pressure caused by the shots are enough to kill a close range. I dont remeber the name of the guy but not long ago (maybe less than 10 years) a movie star joked about commiting suicide. Between takes He put the gun to his head (loaded with blanks) and pulled the trigger. The resulting air pressure blew his skull apart.
Co2 and BB guns are no less dangerous, and I dont think I have to tell you that some one could lose an eye.
My point is that if your going to play dont load the gun, and clean it well after each use to keep it from rusting. Guns are wonderful tools but if misused they can cause a lot of damage.

KitSune

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 2:47:57 PM

Posts: 11766
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Step by step instructions on what NOT to do when engaging in 'Gun Play' unless you can afford the same legal team and/or you are a celebrety in LA.

quote:

"Finally after four years of investigation, five months of trial and approximately 70 witnesses, we now have a variety of the government's speculations as to how this could have happened," Kenney-Baden said.

"Some of them, you heard yesterday, include: The gun fell into her mouth. She was talking and he put the gun in her mouth. She screamed and he put the gun in her mouth. It even got to the point (where) a big gust of wind or an earthquake could have made the gun go off. It must have been San Andreas' fault," she said sarcastically.

Prosecutor Alan Jackson's closing argument Wednesday had repeatedly attacked the high-profile forensic experts hired by Spector, calling it a "checkbook defense." Source: http://www.knbc.com/spectortrial/14058571/detail.html

quote:

Judge Declares Mistrial In Phil Spector Case Jury Unable To Reach Unanimous Verdict In Spector Case
"...Spector could be found guilty of Clarkson's murder, including "forcing her to place the gun in her mouth."
"There's not a shred of evidence to that," defense attorney Brad Brunon argued in opposition to the wording.
Source: http://www.knbc.com/entertainment/14208522/detail.html?dl=mainclick

HAVE FUN!

(in reply to joanus)

RE: Gun Play - 9/26/2007 5:07:17 PM

Posts: 342
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Seems that the majority consensus is don't do it. Being raised around firearms, owning firearms and carrying firearms I personaly do not pull a gun on someone unless I intend to end thier life, Yes I would say it is definately RACK, the question I have is are you prepared to live with yourself if the scene goes bad? I've seen the aftermath of what a .45 does to the back of a mans head and I can say it wasn't hot or erotic.

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RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 12:48:12 AM

Posts: 138
Joined: 7/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InkedMaster

Seems that the majority consensus is don't do it. Being raised around firearms, owning firearms and carrying firearms I personaly do not pull a gun on someone unless I intend to end thier life, Yes I would say it is definately RACK, the question I have is are you prepared to live with yourself if the scene goes bad? I've seen the aftermath of what a .45 does to the back of a mans head and I can say it wasn't hot or erotic.

WOW! you've seen that and still carry a gun and are prepared to kill someone.

Hang on a sec. You carry a gun right? Guns are sooo bad and things so sure to go wrong, how come you don't shoot yourself or others on a regular basis?

I've seen the results of someone being shot, injured and killed too! (even taken 2 spent bullet heads out of my own flakjacket). I've got over 40 years experience with guns too. I've used a variety of guns both in combat and target shooting and game shooting. So how come I'm not as much an expert as you guys who don't want others to do gunplay?

I've also seen the result of someone who's been killed with a knife, That wasn't very pretty, hot or erotic either. So I guess we should all stop knifeplay?

I've seen someone who died from electrocution, that wasn't pretty, so best we stop electric play?

Ever seen the results of a caning gone wrong? Hey! Best get rid of those canes guys.

What about single tails? They can leave some darned unpretty results too. Best we all get rid of the single tails?

Statistically you are far more likely to be killed or seriously injured in an automobile accident. Leave them in the garage guys!

But no, lots of us can use knives safely. We can use canes, electricity and single tails safely. Some of us are even so incredably clever we can use guns safely too. Some of us can even drive around safely. Impressive eh?

I first tried gunplay about 11 years ago. In all that time I haven't managed to shoot anyone. Going by what you anti gunplay folks are saying, that must make me an awesome dom eh?

Advice on how to use guns safely would be a good idea. Advice to get some proper, serious, expert training before owning or using a gun or indulging in gunplay is a good idea. Advising someone who wants to do gunplay to just have a gun and NEVER any ammo, that's good too.
Even offering advice along the lines of 'Personally I wouldn't do gunplay, the risks are too great. However if you do try it, here's a lsit of precautions to take....', would be very good.

All this 'I don't like it, so you shouldn't do it' is very little help. It discourages people from asking for help and advice. It may also encourage people to keep quiet about an interest in gunplay and go do it anyway. THAT is where a far greater danger lays. Are you prepared to live with that, if it goes wrong? Actually I guess you all are OK with that, after all you can then say 'hey look, I was right all along. Clever me'

Wise, intelligent people, with credentials at least as good as anyone on CM, say we shouldn't 'do BDSM', it's abuse etc. We ignore that because we know the truth. We know that although there are some who try to pass off abuse as BDSM, that they are a small minority. That the rest of us are genuine people, who keep it between consenting adults who are aware of the risks etc.

Maybe we should remember that before we jump on a soap box and tell people they should or shouldn't do something?

(in reply to InkedMaster)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 12:57:18 AM

Posts: 5732
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quote:

So how come I'm not as much an expert as you guys who don't want others to do gunplay?

If you are as reckless with guns as you are with words, that would be a major reason why right there.

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(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 2:01:03 AM

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From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jayxkes

quote:

ORIGINAL: InkedMaster

Seems that the majority consensus is don't do it. Being raised around firearms, owning firearms and carrying firearms I personaly do not pull a gun on someone unless I intend to end thier life, Yes I would say it is definately RACK, the question I have is are you prepared to live with yourself if the scene goes bad? I've seen the aftermath of what a .45 does to the back of a mans head and I can say it wasn't hot or erotic.

WOW! you've seen that and still carry a gun and are prepared to kill someone.

Hang on a sec. You carry a gun right? Guns are sooo bad and things so sure to go wrong, how come you don't shoot yourself or others on a regular basis?

I've seen the results of someone being shot, injured and killed too! (even taken 2 spent bullet heads out of my own flakjacket). I've got over 40 years experience with guns too. I've used a variety of guns both in combat and target shooting and game shooting. So how come I'm not as much an expert as you guys who don't want others to do gunplay?

I've also seen the result of someone who's been killed with a knife, That wasn't very pretty, hot or erotic either. So I guess we should all stop knifeplay?

I've seen someone who died from electrocution, that wasn't pretty, so best we stop electric play?

Ever seen the results of a caning gone wrong? Hey! Best get rid of those canes guys.

What about single tails? They can leave some darned unpretty results too. Best we all get rid of the single tails?

Statistically you are far more likely to be killed or seriously injured in an automobile accident. Leave them in the garage guys!

But no, lots of us can use knives safely. We can use canes, electricity and single tails safely. Some of us are even so incredably clever we can use guns safely too. Some of us can even drive around safely. Impressive eh?

I first tried gunplay about 11 years ago. In all that time I haven't managed to shoot anyone. Going by what you anti gunplay folks are saying, that must make me an awesome dom eh?

Advice on how to use guns safely would be a good idea. Advice to get some proper, serious, expert training before owning or using a gun or indulging in gunplay is a good idea. Advising someone who wants to do gunplay to just have a gun and NEVER any ammo, that's good too.
Even offering advice along the lines of 'Personally I wouldn't do gunplay, the risks are too great. However if you do try it, here's a lsit of precautions to take....', would be very good.

All this 'I don't like it, so you shouldn't do it' is very little help. It discourages people from asking for help and advice. It may also encourage people to keep quiet about an interest in gunplay and go do it anyway. THAT is where a far greater danger lays. Are you prepared to live with that, if it goes wrong? Actually I guess you all are OK with that, after all you can then say 'hey look, I was right all along. Clever me'

Wise, intelligent people, with credentials at least as good as anyone on CM, say we shouldn't 'do BDSM', it's abuse etc. We ignore that because we know the truth. We know that although there are some who try to pass off abuse as BDSM, that they are a small minority. That the rest of us are genuine people, who keep it between consenting adults who are aware of the risks etc.

Maybe we should remember that before we jump on a soap box and tell people they should or shouldn't do something?

Didn't see where InkedMaster said anything other than "Yes I would say it is definately RACK" not that anyone shouldn't incorporate a gun in their play, just that the majority opinion is to not do it.

The risks are obvious. A gun is the only item you listed whose sole purpose, and when used as designed, is to kill. Knives, canes, whips, automobiles, and electricity all are designed to serve good and useful purposes, and are only deadly when not used as designed or when used carelessly. A gun is different.

This is a forum. Your opinion is just as valid as the other people posting their opinions. Let's face it, anyone who wants to incorporate gunplay into their scene is going to do it regardless of anyone's opinions but the nature of a forum is that there will be a wide variety of opinions.

For the record, i have never had firearms incorporated into a scene as a weapon. i was once fucked by a long barrelled .44 and it was hot and erotic. We both examined that the clip was removed, we both examined twice that the chamber was empty. The gun was test fired three times to make sure there wasn't a round in the chamber even after examined. The safety was ON. The ammunition was left in a different room and i was definately not blindfolded nor bound. Now that i have bragging rights i have no desire to ever "play" with firearms because i was taught they are never ever ever ever toys.

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(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 2:25:17 AM

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quote:

Maybe we should remember that before we jump on a soap box and tell people they should or shouldn't do something?

Maybe you should go find someone who has actually said all of those things and tell them, instead of pontificating obliviously?

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 5:28:05 AM

Posts: 138
Joined: 7/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

So how come I'm not as much an expert as you guys who don't want others to do gunplay?
If you are as reckless with guns as you are with words, that would be a major reason why right there.

LOL, I see irony doesn't travel too well.

I've been called alot of things, in relation to guns, but never reckless. But then those doing the calling usually know me

.

Interesting that you find my words reckless!

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Didn't see where InkedMaster said anything other than "Yes I would say it is definately RACK" not that anyone shouldn't incorporate a gun in their play, just that the majority opinion is to not do it.

The risks are obvious.

Indeed they are.

quote:

A gun is the only item you listed whose sole purpose, and when used as designed, is to kill.

Sorry if this seems to be picking on you or being pedantic, but that is actually not true. The original purpose of a gun may have been to kill. However for a very long time now, guns have also been designed for things like target shooting. My .22 rifle was designed, intended to be used and manufactured as a target rifle.

quote:

Knives, canes, whips, automobiles, and electricity all are designed to serve good and useful purposes, and are only deadly when not used as designed or when used carelessly.

Again not accurate. Many knives are/have been specifically designed to kill. Knives have a far, far longer history as deadly weapons, than guns do. The dagger was a very popular assassin's weapon, both pre and post the invention of guns. In fact, on a historic scale, the gun is a relatively new weapon.
Rope also has a longer history than guns of killing people.

For some, it is the very fact that a gun or a knife, or whatever, is so potentially dangerous, that is the turn on. I very definately do not feel I have any right to tell them that they should or should not find them, or anything else, erotic.

Guns also serve a good and useful purpose.

In the context of BDSM gunplay, the only time a gun will injure or kill is when it is used carelessly.
So from that perspective, and your next comment not withstanding, they are no different to e.g. knives.

quote:

A gun is different.

That is very true. It has a much different effect for those who are into gunplay than anything else. It also elicits a far more emotive response when discussed.

Guns also need a different set of safety measures.

quote:

This is a forum. Your opinion is just as valid as the other people posting their opinions.

Again, I'm in complete agreement with you.

quote:

Let's face it, anyone who wants to incorporate gunplay into their scene is going to do it regardless of anyone's opinions but the nature of a forum is that there will be a wide variety of opinions.

I certainly understand your point here, though I'm not convinced it's accurate. Some people are influenced by the opinions voiced in forums such as this one.
There is a good argument to say that if someone is put off an idea by what's said in a forum, then they were not really interested in the first place.
My view, however, is more is it right to influence someone with inaccurate or misleading information and/or emotive comments on a subject.

quote:

For the record, i have never had firearms incorporated into a scene as a weapon. i was once fucked by a long barrelled .44 and it was hot and erotic. We both examined that the clip was removed, we both examined twice that the chamber was empty. The gun was test fired three times to make sure there wasn't a round in the chamber even after examined. The safety was ON. The ammunition was left in a different room and i was definately not blindfolded nor bound. Now that i have bragging rights i have no desire to ever "play" with firearms because i was taught they are never ever ever ever toys.

I genuinely thank you for this part of your post especially. It shows again that gunplay can be done safely and is enjoyable for those who enjoy it. More importantly it comes from someone who has chosen not to include gunplay in their kink.

You enjoyed the experience of gunplay. Both you and your partner ensured that it was done safely and now you are making an informed and educated decision about gunplay in the future. That's excellent. I'm pleased you had a good experience. I post in the full knowledge that those who oppose gunplay are highly unlikely to ever change their mind. I would like everyone to have the same opportunity that you and I have had, and be able to make an educated and informed decision, based on accurate information.

Look at it from a different perspective, it was far far safer for you to be fucked by a long barrelled .44, than it would have been with a knife!

My point is that we shouldn't be trying to dissuade people from trying something, simply because we, or a majority of those on CM who felt able to respond, do not like it.

I also think we have a moral responsibility, when asked for advice, to mention the potential dangers and safety precautions. However not to do so in a judgemental, inaccurate or unbalanced way.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 6:55:40 AM

Posts: 5732
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quote:

My point is that we shouldn't be trying to dissuade people from trying something, simply because we, or a majority of those on CM who felt able to respond, do not like it.

Hogwash.

Some ideas for scene play have an outsized risk of severe and permanenent bodily harm, or even death. Some dangers are not easily taken into consderation, nor should any danger be blithely dismissed.

Tolerance for another's kink preferences does NOT bar anyone from arguing strenuously in favor of safety and the preservation of life. Classifying behavior as "kink" does NOT render that behavior automatically immune from criticism of its dangers.

I consider the risks from gun play gone wrong to vastly outweigh the gratifications it offers. That is a valid, reasonable, and moral position to take. Suggesting that I should not articulate such a position is both unreasonable and immoral.

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(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 7:01:24 AM

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Joined: 3/10/2007
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You cannot see the bullet in the chamber at times. I had that happen also in the miltary. So, the best type of gun play in this day and time whether it be Rack or SSC is no gun play. Common sence prevails in this situation.

Regards, MissSCD

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 7:08:16 AM

Posts: 5732
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quote:

I very definately do not feel I have any right to tell them that they should or should not find them, or anything else, erotic.

This is a straw man argument. No one here has presumed to criticize anyone for finding eroticism in gun play.

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(in reply to Jayxkes)

RE: Gun Play - 9/27/2007 7:12:04 AM

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Joined: 1/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
A gun is the only item you listed whose sole purpose, and when used as designed, is to kill. Knives, canes, whips, automobiles, and electricity all are designed to serve good and useful purposes, and are only deadly when not used as designed or when used carelessly.

Actually, thats not true. Knives were original designed and created the the sole purpose of injuring or killing. When they are used as they are designed, that is what they will accomplish.

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Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to eyesopened)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Gun Play

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