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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 12:28:42 AM

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I'll get the water pump ready for the flames.

Abortion is a very difficult thing for a woman to choose. Some people seem to think it is the "easy way out". There is nothing easy about making such a decision and it is not taken lightly. It is heartbreaking, soul destroying and often sets up a guilt complex for the rest of the womans life. Obviously there are some very good reasons for abortion, as mentioned already, rape/extreme youth of the mother/incest/etc. Using an abortion as a form of post coital contraception is not a good reason.

Having said all that, who here has not made a sad mistake that altered their life? People DO sometimes get so carried away whilst having sex that reason can disappear for a while, the condom isn't used or the pill wasn't taken. I guess it all depends on the position and maturity of the mother (and the father, if he is involved). For example, a 13 year old crack user who lives on the streets is hardly going to manage to be a good mother. A middle class woman who works in a call centre, is perfectly healthy, has no mental health problems, is financially secure and able to take care of a baby might be seen as a capable mother and an abortion refused. It's so subjective, I don't know how anyone can make a call on who needs an abortion and who doesn't.

Backyard abortionists have killed and permanantly damaged thousands of women and girls. If the choice of safe, legal abortion is taken away, the medical system will bear the brunt of caring for those dying within hours from blood loss, or the care of those women who have been badly damaged internally (and mentally), and require remedial surgery, ongoing care and counselling. I can't see anyone voting for that possibility. I hope I never see it.

I do think more education on the subject of safe sex, and the ready availability of contraceptives, is the better way to go. Having condoms readily available isn't going to solve the problem, but it will help not only with unwanted pregnancy, but also disease.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 12:29:18 AM

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"An abortion clinic's a good place to pick up loose women"
-Dogma

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 2:15:26 AM

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I too am not sympathetic to Abortion especially since most take place for convenience. ie a child is a bit of a hindrance at this time.
I think the slogan " a womans right to choose" is mind blowingly simplistic when faced with the profound mystery of a new life.
It is a difficult subject tho'. I am glad I dont have to make the decisions. If I did I would dramatically reduce the availability of Abortion.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:10:35 AM

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Naomi Wolf:

quote:

Clinging to a rhetoric about abortion in which there is no life and no death, we entangle our beliefs in a series of self-delusions, fibs and evasions. And we risk becoming precisely what our critics charge us with being: callous, selfish and casually destructive men and women who share a cheapened view of human life.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/prochoice/ourbodiesoursouls.htm

< Message edited by Level -- 10/7/2007 4:14:36 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:15:59 AM

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I find the following to be the strongest arguments trotted out by pro-lifers and pro-choice:

Pro-choice:
The woman would endanger her life by having illegal abortions or risking her life in other ways to abort the child.

Pro-life:
The child shouldn’t be made responsible for the mistakes of the parents.

Pro-choice counter argument: The man would get off from this mistake whilst the woman would be punished for it, i.e. it creates laws that discriminate against one sex.

Pro-life: Premature babies have survived with medical intervention within the current abortion time limit and the law needs to be altered to reflect this new reality.

I personally think the time limit on abortion should be reduced to that at which a premature baby is unable to survive with medical intervention. Beyond that I think the law is never going to please everyone and as it is now will have to do. I don’t think any woman aborts a child because it’s the easy option and I think it will play on her mind throughout the rest of her life.

I don’t feel that birth control methods such as condoms or the pill have anything to do with the argument of abortion other than people should use them more wisely. Scrap this debate and start one about better sex education because prevention is better than cure.

Edit: Pro-life argument about premature babies added.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 10/7/2007 4:50:54 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 4:21:52 AM

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the only 100% sure birthcontrol is abstinence .women can get pregnant even when sterilized.one woman in my nursing class dropped out because of an unexpected pregnacy although she had her tubes done years before.
so.. the only solution would be no sex unless for procreation. how many men would go for that?
abortionis a surgical procedure and carries all the risks associated with such.
we dont all believe when a group of cells become a human. my opinion is if youre against abortion dont have one and adopt an unwanted child . there are so many that live their life bouncing from foster home to foster home then let loose at 18.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 5:41:58 AM

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CuriousLord:

That statement was made on purpose to make you think.

From what I have studied, and I claim to be no expert, nor am I judging anyone here, yes, abortion if murder. If personality is conceived at conception, then I believe life would start at conception.
Yes, we must have the right to choose because sometimes we make wrong choises in life; however, if we educate ourselves on t his subject when we are young, we may start to realize that abortion is wrong. You have to go back to the cause of the problem. It is not in the water.
In my humble opinion, abortion is a personal choice. So my choice is it is not an option for me. I have my hystrectomy and don't have to worry.
All I am saying is be responsbile for your actions and we won't have to use it, but we cannot change the law.

It is a personal choice for the woman to make regardless if it is pro or against.

Regards, MissSCD

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 6:59:32 AM

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Not being able to Father children I have always looked at this as double edge sword. I believe that a woman has a right to decide yet i believe that it was wrong since so many people out there would love a child yet not be able to have one of their own naturally. All this came home for me a little over 3 years ago. My daughter (step) and her boyfriend came to my office to tell me she was pregnant, then the male in the relationship (sorry male is the nicest thing i can call it) looked me dead in the eye and asked to borrow $500.00 to pay for an abortion. Now i may had over reacted a little bit when i put a 357 mag to his head hard enough to leave a perfect circle bruise. I then cocked the hammer and asked the boy "what gives me the right to take your life?" The boy said i didn't have the right I told him he was correct i didn't have the right even though i still might do it anyways. Then i asked the boy what gave him the right to kill my grandchild. I explained to the boy if he killed my grandchild now or any time i would look at it the same way and i would act the same way. Now i have Abby she is one of the greatest joys of my life. And now i believe it should be a medical decision if there is a valid medical reason then so be it if not there are alot of people like me that would do anything for a child.

Eric

Sorry for the poor grammer but it is a heated subject for me

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:06:07 AM

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here's hoping that one day soon every child will be a loved wanted child. that every woman will cry for joy when the test strip turns positive.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:31:38 AM

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I am pro choice and pro life. I would hope that people, when possible, would always choose life. Just the same there are valid resons why abortions should remain legal. This seems to me and most likely will remain one of the most debated and complex issues ever.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:45:30 AM

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i feel that a woman should have the right to choose.....and i feel like if she believes abortion is murder, she should choose to not have one.

as for men having a say in it-they can have a say if they choose to only have sex with a woman they are in a committed relationship with.....

otherwise, until the fetus can be taken from the woman and implanted into the man for him to carry and give birth to-i think its 100% the womans choice.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 7:50:52 AM

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I am twisted on this one. On the one hand I believe a person has the right to control there own body. On the other hand- my sister or loved ones had never come to me and say they are aborting.[when I was 21] I encourged a friend to abort- and today I feel there is blood on my hands. I KNOW it bothers her.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:00:26 AM

susie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

A woman should have ownership of her reproductive rights, with no interference from anyone. This includes the right to give birth, use birth control, obtain abortion, sterilization.

Since when was murder a right?

I get the whole "it's my body" bit. I'd like point out that, when the baby is developing, you're "eatting for two" because there are, indeed, two bodies. I can not see how you can possibly be so cynical as to argue that the second life is so unimportant as to its life terminable at the first life's whim.

To be earnest with you, such a notion is as disgusting as the idea that I should have the rights to do whatever I want with my body. Such as lifting my arm in a swift fashion, regardless of the person next to me. Who cares if I punch them? It's my body! My right! Their life doesn't matter. And, if I'm one who cares so little for others that I don't mind punching them, I should legally be allowed to.

CuriousLord, you make it sound as if this were an easy decision for a woman. Oops I am pregnant, silly me I'll have an abortion. It is not an easy decision for anyone to make and those that do live with that choice for the rest of their lives. I have seen women agonise over the decision knowing that it is in their best interest to go through with an abortion but also knowing that is an almost impossible situation.

No man will ever know what it is like for a woman being pregnant so I think for any man to pass judgement is wholly unfair. Pregnancy is not just a carry some object inside you for 9 months, it affects the woman hormonally and emotionally too. Not one woman I have seen go through with an abortion (I worked in a hospital that speciallised in womens health) ever thought it was "the easy option".

Whilst I am aware that there are many childless couples out there who would give anything to have a child, suggesting that a woman should carry the child to full term to then give it up for adoption instead of having an abortion is heartless. No man could understand what a woman goes through during a pregnancy and how it effects her.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:04:30 AM

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Yes there are alot of couples who can't have children, but want them, but there are not enough to full the gap. and plus (as anyone who has worked foster care/ adoption knows.) there are people out there who should not be near a kid, let alone foster/adopt one. At the moment since I cannot afford a baby, I would give the baby up for adoption. But I wouldn't hesitate in trying to keep the baby if I couldn't find a suitable enough couple. subdownhawk has summed it up perfectly. thanks.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:08:26 AM

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Actually i have met a few ladies who treat Abortion as birth control. Each time I was disgusted not to mention grateful that they didn't have any children. It would be nice if they could come up with BC that works 100% .

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Our community maybe openminded as a whole, but it is still made up of individuals who bring in their own opinions,baggage and agendas!

Known as SwitchWitch in my local community,and on IRC Bondage.

I also go by the nic SwitchWitch on MDS.

(in reply to LadyLynx)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:36:18 AM

MySweetSubmssive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
This also does not take into account any rights the Father may have.

Orion

I hear this argument a lot, but there is a very simple answer -- men *do* have a choice. They have a choice whether to have unprotected sex. In my eyes, the central argument of abortion is control. Pro-choice women want to control what happens with their own bodies. Men want to control what happens with their spunk ... and some men regretably want to control their partner in a non-consensual way.

If you, as a man, do not condone abortion, then make sure that your sperm doesn't make it's way into a woman.

Another poster mentioned women having abortions "on a whim." I would challenge that person to come up with concrete examples of women that he knows who have done this. As a women's health care provider (and as a woman with women friends), I don't see people making this decision cavalierly. It's a serious decision with long-term consequences. I do hear about women having serial abortions. As another poster mentioned, this would have to be scarring and damaging to her. If the woman cannot care for herself, I would gently and respectfully say that she may not be able to care for another person.

It is important to look at abortion in context. I find it head-scratching that a large proportion of people who are against abortion are also fine with the death penalty. How do people square those things? A good friend of mine is in the military and has killed people, but is personally againt abortion. Again, this seems contradictory. For those who see abortion as killing, are you similarly pained by abuse of children, violence against women, crimes motivated by racism, homophobia, etc? Do you value life as a whole, or is your concern focused on this one aspect of life? And if the latter, why?

For people who are against abortion, do you support increased social supports (welfare) for young women who get pregnant? Do you support legislation requiring the man in question to give child support to the child if he does not stay in the picture? Or better yet, as we did in this country 200 years ago, would you support legislation where the government paid child support to the mother and then independantly went after the absent father?

I find abortion to be a regretable choice, but one that some women decide they need to make. On a spiritual level, I find an abortion to be a "missed connection" between the person who is yet to be born and the woman and man. I think it's possible that we live more than one life, and so an abortion doesn't mean cutting off a life, but delaying family making between these three people until another time. This is a more simplified version of what I believe, but I'm not as eloquent as I'd like to be.

I am not in love with abortion. In the best of worlds, there wouldn't be abortions (in the best of worlds, there wouldn't be other forms of violence, either). But to see it in black and white terms, to talk about women having an abortion "on a whim" avoids the complexity of the issue and trivializes how we make this choice.

MSS

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:55:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

Actually i have met a few ladies who treat Abortion as birth control. Each time I was disgusted not to mention grateful that they didn't have any children. It would be nice if they could come up with BC that works 100% .

Birth control is the overwhelming reason given by women for having an abortion.

When women claim abortion is traumatic, I think they are just fishing for the sympathy vote. Maybe it is traumatic for the odd woman but not for most women, for why would they say they had an abortion because pregnancy was inconvenient and would interupt their career or love life or whatever the reason is for its inconvenience. Some no doubt have one for financial reasons but they are very much in the minority according to most studies.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/7/2007 9:02:46 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 8:59:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: favesclava

the only solution would be no sex unless for procreation. how many men would go for that?

Oh yeah - that's the only solution.

Not.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 9:09:17 AM

ChicagoSwitchMal

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I am pro-choice which should not be confused with pro-abortion. I personally do not feel that a ball of cells constitutes a human and therefor terminating it is not murder. I do however have a personal objection to later term abortions. For me the line between abortion and murder comes in when the brain attaches to the spine and the fetus "experiences" the procedure. I dont remember where in a pregancies term that happens. I used to but haven't needed to know that fact since my vasectomy. And as I do not wish to impose my values on others I will otherwise accept whatever legal requirements are out there for when an abortion is allowed.

Women I have debated this with have gotten angry that I would impose such a restriction on a womans choice. Well first off, I can't "impose" this on anyone. Nor would I ever wish to "make" a woman have a child she'd rather abort. But I do have the right to have standards with who I choose to be with. Aborting what I consider to be human would be a deal breaker. I would not continue a relationship with someone who did so. She is free to make her choice, so am I.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 9:21:41 AM

susie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

Actually i have met a few ladies who treat Abortion as birth control. Each time I was disgusted not to mention grateful that they didn't have any children. It would be nice if they could come up with BC that works 100% .

Birth control is the overwhelming reason given by women for having an abortion.

When women claim abortion is traumatic, I think they are just fishing for the sympathy vote. Maybe it is traumatic for the odd woman but not for most women, for why would they say they had an abortion because pregnancy was inconvenient and would interupt their career or love life or whatever the reason is for its inconvenience. Some no doubt have one for financial reasons but they are very much in the minority according to most studies.

What a ridiculous statement and one that could only have been made by a man. I suggest you take some time to talk to women who have had to make the choice. It is not traumatic for the odd woman, it is traumatic for the majority of women. Of course there are some that take the decision lightly but in the main that is not the case.

Go and talk to some of the professionals who deal with women who have had to take the decision.

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