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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
For now, though, it's just hard to see some animals killing their own offspring, following whatever strange impulses that their conscience affords indulgence to out of a lack of understanding the consquences. 

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ORIGINAL: susie

How very sweet of you to point out "my immaturity". When YOU have spent time with women agonising over the decision of whether to have an abortion or not. When YOU have spent time with women after going through the procedure and seeing the emotional effect it has on them then you can come here and discuss how "selfish" that choice is.

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ORIGINAL: FullCircle

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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
For now, though, it's just hard to see some animals killing their own offspring, following whatever strange impulses that their conscience affords indulgence to out of a lack of understanding the consquences. 

You’ve never seen a dog eat its puppy? I also once saw owlets left alone start to eat one another. It's amazing how quickly six became two. Anyway thats all beside the point continue.....

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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

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ORIGINAL: KatyLied

A woman should have ownership of her reproductive rights, with no interference from anyone.  This includes the right to give birth, use birth control, obtain abortion, sterilization.

Since when was murder a right?

I get the whole "it's my body" bit.  I'd like point out that, when the baby is developing, you're "eatting for two" because there are, indeed, two bodies.  I can not see how you can possibly be so cynical as to argue that the second life is so unimportant as to its life terminable at the first life's whim.

To be earnest with you, such a notion is as disgusting as the idea that I should have the rights to do whatever I want with my body.  Such as lifting my arm in a swift fashion, regardless of the person next to me.  Who cares if I punch them?  It's my body!  My right!  Their life doesn't matter.  And, if I'm one who cares so little for others that I don't mind punching them, I should legally be allowed to.

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ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

Blue eyes, excellent point!  However in regard to a girl someone under 18 (or 16 in some states.) she mostlikely wouldn't be the one actually deciding, her parents/legal guardian would be. Hopefully they would be smart enough to consider the issues that would she would have ethier way. 

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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

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ORIGINAL: susie

How very sweet of you to point out "my immaturity". When YOU have spent time with women agonising over the decision of whether to have an abortion or not. When YOU have spent time with women after going through the procedure and seeing the emotional effect it has on them then you can come here and discuss how "selfish" that choice is.

I'd like to offer you two responses.  The choice for which you take is yours.

The first is along the lines of a question I asked before.. "How is chosing to kill a baby for one's own good not selfish?"  This question largely stems from the acknowledgement that, while it doesn't necessarily make things great for the woman, it makes things for her better than what they would've been.  Therefore, she's making this decision to benefit herself.

The second is.. well, the last post was sort of.. hostile.  I'd offer you adjorning this, as there's no point in continuing if it's only going to upset.

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ORIGINAL: FullCircle

See I myself have always considered a foetus as having life potential not as being life. If you run over a pregnant woman is it a double murder and how could you prove she would have successfully carried the baby full term?

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ORIGINAL: susie

Please do not flatter yourself in thinking that you have upset me. Far from it. In fact I have found your postings quite amusing.

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ORIGINAL: susie
As for the bolded statement, that does not always hold true. The woman may actually be making a choice that benefits both. To force a woman to have a child she does not want and so possibly subject that child to a life of misery is more selfish.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

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ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
This also does not take into account any rights the Father may have.

Orion

I hear this argument a lot, but there is a very simple answer -- men *do* have a choice.  They have a choice whether to have unprotected sex.  In my eyes, the central argument of abortion is control.  Pro-choice women want to control what happens with their own bodies.  Men want to control what happens with their spunk ... and some men regretably want to control their partner in a non-consensual way.

If you, as a man, do not condone abortion, then make sure that your sperm doesn't make it's way into a woman.

And if the conception occured during a time of agreement to have the child? Does not the female bear equal accountability?

If they agree to have the child there's no abortion, and therefore no problem.

If the Father is held leaglly responsible, if the child comes to full term, then is it not equaitable to give them equal say in whether an abortion is performed?

As I said before, if a man doesn't want to wrangle with this dilemma, the best way to handle that is to consistently use birth control.  I realize that birth control isn't foolproof, but as you noted, increasing it's usage would lower the number of unwanted pregnancies.  If someone has unprotected sex with me, in my opinion he is tacitly saying that he is comfortable with my decision-making process and that he is willing to take responsibility if fertility takes it's course.  Can you disagree with this?  Have you ever heard of a commune in Tennessee called The Farm?  Their community agreement was that if you were having sex you were engaged, and if you had a baby you were married.  In terms of reproduction and fertility, this makes a lot of sense to me.
 
I do not think that the man has an equal say regarding whether the woman gets an abortion.  I'm sure that statement makes some folks head's twist around, but the fact is that pregnancy is not a 50/50 experience.  It does not happen to men and women equally, and the responsibilities do not fall on each equally.  Pregnancy is not something that is divided in half.  It's not something that can be understood like two people co-owning a house or a vehicle.  Pregnancy is something that is created out of my body.  To be clear, I'm not saying that that the man isn't a part of it; I'm saying that particularly in the beginning stages of pregnancy, it's happening more to me than to him. 

What of a female that has unprotected sex, and knows that the man involved will not be their life partmer, nor a good Father, why is it only the male is held accountable and responsible?

How is only the man held accountable?  Looking at the reality of young, single mothers, I'm not sure how you see men held accountable in those situations.  Could you explain your point of view further, please?

I believe these are often complex questions, that many people try to create easy answers to.

I am not one of those people.

I forgot to mention in my original post something I have been saying to Anti-choicers and Pro-Deathers (damn perspective means alot). The problem is not with abortion, but with unwanted pregnancy. Address the real problem, and the symptom will reduce itself.

We are in complete agreement. I would love to see much better information about, and usage of, birth control.
 
MSS


Orion

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ORIGINAL: winterlight

this is an off comment: many years ago a young mother had two children waiting at home while she was to give birth. Trouble was she was in a Catholic Hospital and the baby was dead rotting inside of her killing her. What to do? Well, her Dr. stepped in and get her out of there. Went to another Hospital and induced the baby.
Thank God for that Dr. cos i would have grown up without a mother. God bless those that grew up without a parent..

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ORIGINAL: MstrDennynSlave

there are only a few cases where i approve of abortion. there are so many people that cant have children, that desperately want children. if you find yourself with an unwanted pregnancy, carry the baby to term and place the baby up for adoption.

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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

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ORIGINAL: susie

Please do not flatter yourself in thinking that you have upset me. Far from it. In fact I have found your postings quite amusing.

Alrighties then.  Could we can the hostility?  It's only so long until a mod'll end up just putting an end to it anyhow.  Besides, isn't it more pleasant to just have a discussion of points and reason?  I mean, sure, it may not turn out to always be what you wanted, but isn't chasing the truth more noble than thinking we're always right?

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ORIGINAL: susie
As for the bolded statement, that does not always hold true. The woman may actually be making a choice that benefits both. To force a woman to have a child she does not want and so possibly subject that child to a life of misery is more selfish.

So you'd rather be dead than growing up in an unloving home?  It is a bit of a hard question, but I think, personally, I'd chose to exist.  And, since suicides aren't exactly the expected outcome for kids raised in a broken home, I'm inclined to say that this is probably how most people feel.

So, yeah, I'm pretty sure people don't like the idea of being killed to be put out of misery.  And, well, I'm pretty sure the mother is chosing it for her own good.  Justifying it as "it was good for the baby, too!".. well, can't you say that about babies who are already born?  They start their toddler stage, and you realize it's just not going to work.. why not toss 'em in the dumpster?  I mean, you're just saving it from a hard life, right?

Trust me, a toddler probably doesn't fear death any more than an infant in the womb; how could it?  It's too innocent to know what death is.

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ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
But what's more alive than one just starting?