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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:49:43 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The last word you want in your mouth is antidisestablishmentarianism that’s a bit of a choker.


Personally, I'm for the supercalifrigicexbealidicous- if I could ever hope to spell it.  Who knows?  Maybe the spirit of Mary Poppins would come save me to have a session with her.  Or, at very least, I like the word!

Gah.  There's nothing like this board to cause me to be late to Bio.  How did this last hour pass so damn quickly?  Ah wells.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/10/2007 2:50:26 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:54:27 PM   
missturbation


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Well, you see.. that's what I'm doing.. asking for proof of something you said..
It shouldn't be that hard.. I've made tons of posts, so if everything I say is opinion, any particular post should do.. right?  =/
Actually it was more that i would have to cite every post you have made that leads me to stay i will just ask for proof in future. Or if you like i could ask you to back up every post you have made!!
 
If you use legal definitions, and engage in anal sex, would your mate not be a rapist?

I'm against using laws to define morality, but, if it works for you..
I know anal sex is illegal. Didn't know it was classed as rape though. Can you back that up, prove its fact for me?
 
Esecentially, you're saying that abortion is done to avoid incredible suffering, right? 
Erm no.
Would the suffering brought by an inconvinent abortion by a woman who concieved it while engaging in fully consentual sex truly be condemned to a fate worse than life in jail while being hated by her friends and family, never to be free again?
What? That doesn't even make sense?

Edited to add - if its a human biology class you  are attending why not ask your tutor if it is known at what point a fetus becomes aware of things, feels pain etc.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 10/10/2007 2:56:36 PM >


_____________________________

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:55:28 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
The last word you want in your mouth is antidisestablishmentarianism that’s a bit of a choker.

Personally, I'm for the supercalifrigicexbealidicous- if I could ever hope to spell it.  Who knows?  Maybe the spirit of Mary Poppins would come save me to have a session with her.  Or, at very least, I like the word!
Gah.  There's nothing like this board to cause me to be late to Bio.  How did this last hour pass so damn quickly?  Ah wells.


I’ve always thought of Mary Popins (pronounced Mary Popens) as being pretty evil myself. Some would even call her a witch the way she flies about on umbrellas. Also that Dick Van Dick jumping into pavement pictures, which just can’t be right. Why did we do away with witch trials? Anyway continue this light topic of the day…..

_____________________________

ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 4:24:53 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
I’ve always thought of Mary Popins (pronounced Mary Popens) as being pretty evil myself. Some would even call her a witch the way she flies about on umbrellas. Also that Dick Van Dick jumping into pavement pictures, which just can’t be right. Why did we do away with witch trials?


Pft.  Of course she's evil.. that what makes spanking her all so right!  She needs to be tied down and taught to.. ..not do whatever it is that she does.  Or to do it.  I'd have to know to say, but.. it's one or ther other.  Regardless, though, the tying up and teaching of something is certainly justified.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Anyway continue this light topic of the day…..


Hah, you know, I've already thrown up once from reading some of the.. interesting.. ideas presented here.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 4:34:27 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Well, you see.. that's what I'm doing.. asking for proof of something you said..
It shouldn't be that hard.. I've made tons of posts, so if everything I say is opinion, any particular post should do.. right?  =/
Actually it was more that i would have to cite every post you have made that leads me to stay i will just ask for proof in future. Or if you like i could ask you to back up every post you have made!!

 
I'm not entirely sure I understand; why would you have to cite every post I've ever made to provide an example of an opinion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
If you use legal definitions, and engage in anal sex, would your mate not be a rapist?

I'm against using laws to define morality, but, if it works for you..
I know anal sex is illegal. Didn't know it was classed as rape though. Can you back that up, prove its fact for me?

 
I'm glad you agree it's illegal.  I'm not entirely sure where to find law clips at.  But, since we can agree it's illegal, I just checked the dictionary.  "unlawful sexual activity"  -Merriam-Webster Online.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Esecentially, you're saying that abortion is done to avoid incredible suffering, right? 
Erm no.


Ah.. okay.  I guess I'm not sure what you were trying to get at in that point then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Would the suffering brought by an inconvinent abortion by a woman who concieved it while engaging in fully consentual sex truly be condemned to a fate worse than life in jail while being hated by her friends and family, never to be free again?
What? That doesn't even make sense?


I'm sorry that it was confusing.

It was my impression that you were making the argument that abortion is something people do because they're in a horrible situation, emotionally destressed, and that, because of this, I shouldn't judge them.

I made the point of hitting some kids at night with a witness because it would be a condition in which, I feel, the driver would be in line for a fate worse than having an inconvinent child- a life long cage, seperate from all loved ones, and such.  In both cases, there's a simple, sickening, and immoral way to get out of it- kill the one problem, be it the fetus or the witness, that would cause the entire thing to go away.

My point was that, if someone killed the witness, I'd still find them guilty of murder, despite the emotional distress that brought them to do so and their lack of malice for the victim.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 5:40:20 PM   
junecleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you?  How would you feel if she had?

---

My mother, who grew up as a repressed Catholic and got married because she "had to" asked me this question in the middle of a very heated conversation about this topic.  I said that I wouldn't have been around to feel the loss.  I wouldn't have felt anything.  You can't miss what you aren't aware of.  I thought it was an absurd argument, and I still do.  It's never made sense to me. 

I think my mother did have the right to abort me.  At this point, though, I hope she's decided to give up that option.

MSS


Where do you draw that line of awareness?  Can I strangle a severely retarded pretty much vegetable state kind of adult because they won't miss what they were never aware of?  If someone could concretely prove to me when life began, then I would have no problem with abortions before that point.  But no one has the right to make that value judgment and I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I think we are aware of things on a more than physical level and I think if I were aborted I would notice it.

I take it as a personal affront that someone thought they could just cut me up and suck me out.  It's really hard for me to understand how you can feel differently.  Could you elaborate on your last statement a little bit more?



re: the red font...........huh?


As in...I think we are spiritual beings and that I would be aware that I had been aborted because my spirit would be somewhere else.

It really doesn't sound that crazy in my head.


_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 6:26:00 PM   
deadbluebird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
I think we are aware of things on a more than physical level and I think if I were aborted I would notice it.

As in...I think we are spiritual beings and that I would be aware that I had been aborted because my spirit would be somewhere else.

It really doesn't sound that crazy in my head.



even without brainwaves?



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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 6:49:22 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deadbluebird
quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
I think we are aware of things on a more than physical level and I think if I were aborted I would notice it.

As in...I think we are spiritual beings and that I would be aware that I had been aborted because my spirit would be somewhere else.

It really doesn't sound that crazy in my head.



even without brainwaves?


It's foolish to believe in spirits and souls; things that don't exist!  Regardless, ignoring that gross error, she's applying the assumption properly.

The idea of a spirit is that it's something apart from the body, coexisting, in ways, with the body, but not being confined by it.  That people- our consciousness- is something more than just in our brains.

If someone adopts such a view, then the absense of an aspect of the body, such as brain waves, shouldn't matter.  After all, they believe the humor spirit persists through even death, do they not?

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 7:13:14 PM   
subtee


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quote:

After all, they believe the humor spirit persists through even death, do they not?


That's not funny.

(Okay it is, kinda)

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 7:39:14 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

After all, they believe the humor spirit persists through even death, do they not?


That's not funny.

(Okay it is, kinda)


Ick.  Talk about a slip; I didn't even realize that one.

Anyhow, as one might've guessed, my respect for the concepts of spirtuality are of the utmost reverence.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 7:48:38 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

in any case, it would be my argument that empathy is a supremely important thing for us to keep in mind.  Quite a beloved subject!


Absolutely! We agree, I think, on the importance of empathy. I believe it's a crucial ingredient in human community and moral progress. Indeed, one of my favorite lines in a lifetime of avid reading is Lear's command to himself: "Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel."

When I said that empathy is an emotion, I wasn't dismissing it. I think empathy's importance lies precisely in its being an emotion. Empathy doesn't simply give us an intellectual perspective, valuable though that is, on someone else's situation. It enables us to feel a glimmer of what someone else might feel. The word, after all, is rooted in pathos, Greek for "feeling."

Empathy has given you a clear, strong stance on abortion. Interestingly, it's had the opposite effect on me. That's because my empathy tends to be mulitfaceted. I'm cursed or blessed--can't decide which some days--with being one of those folks who see every side in every situation. I drive my friends nuts empathizing with the villains in their stories, and I could probably muster compassion (a word I prefer to empathy) for my own murderer, particularly if s/he struck while I was wrestling with a deadline.

And so, when it comes to abortion, I empathize with a host of characters:

-- the baby, growing and kicking in the womb (I confess I have a harder time working up feelings for the microscopic, undifferentiated organism of the early stages),

-- the women who have shared their powerful stories on this thread,

-- the woman honestly wrestling with the question of whether she can be a good mother to her baby if she carries it to term,

-- the unwanted child who is abused or spends a grim childhood being shuffled from foster home to foster home,

-- the family that fractures from the strain of caring for a disabled child they didn't have the emotional resources to rear,

-- the young, promising student who puts out for an eager boyfriend, winds up pregnant, and is terrified her family will disown her,

-- the women who choose to continue their pregnancies anyway, making sacrifices I cannot begin to fathom,

-- the person, born in difficult circumstances, who thinks "Holy shit. My mom could have aborted me."

-- the mother who feels that glib talk about "quality of life" disses her handicapped child,

-- women who are outraged when men, who will never face the abortion dilemma personally, never be asked or required to surrender part of their own bodies to another being, seek to curtail a woman's access to abortion,

-- men who feel censored when they're told that men have no right to have views about abortion,

-- Harry Blackmun, who agonized about the rights of both mother and child while writing his Roe opinion, and

-- all of us honestly seeking the light on this tough issue.

For me, empathy means that there are no easy answers on this issue.



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/10/2007 8:08:38 PM >


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 7:54:56 PM   
CuriousLord


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For me, empathy does mean considering it all.  And, in few cases does empathy allow one to condemn a child to death.

I believe people often consider some of the cases, where it's not a lady in her 30's who wants kids, just maybe five years down the road, because she doesn't quite feel like it now.  Such a case, where she just feels like killing the child...

The stories we get here are.. well, who's going to speak up against abortion, saying, "Well, yeah, I just felt like it!"?  It'd hurt their cause; why go out of their way to mention it?  These heart breaking stories.. I don't know just if they're more common or not, but they're definately not always the case.

I go with the lesser of two evils. If the pregnancy would kill the mother (and, in such cases, possibly even the child, too!), then I'd urge the mother to chose in favor of the abortion.  So, there's no lack of empathy for the mother- it's just, I can't see how, in most cases, having the child would be worse than death.

Too many people who feel empathy just.. stop, you know?  It's a horrid subject and they just don't want to have to weigh the consquences.  It's easier to just leave it in the hands of those involved, even if those hands would not be so considerate of the child.

PS-  I believe strongly in working through even tough things.  To me, killing someone to make things work out is a very late last resort.  The only reason I don't frown upon things like raped/incest cases is out of the acknowledgement that, in those cases, the emotional damage just might be so great as to be on par with death.  Still, I've even heard stories of rape victims making piece with it and raising the child as a means to gain empowerment in her own life, going on to be rather happy; so, I know that it may not even always be necessary in the cases I wouldn't object to it in.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/10/2007 8:07:47 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 8:11:36 PM   
subtee


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quote:

Anyhow, as one might've guessed, my respect for the concepts of spirtuality are of the utmost reverence.


I understand. And humor(s) notwithstanding...I stand with you there.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 8:12:43 PM   
junecleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deadbluebird

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
I think we are aware of things on a more than physical level and I think if I were aborted I would notice it.

As in...I think we are spiritual beings and that I would be aware that I had been aborted because my spirit would be somewhere else.

It really doesn't sound that crazy in my head.



even without brainwaves?





Without a physical body.

I think (of course I'm not sure about anything) that I am a spiritual being seeing the world through a physical medium and it doesn't all make sense because of that.

But that's just what I came up with the last time I was smoking crack.

_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 8:27:03 PM   
Termyn8or


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That was a damn good example of higher reasoning CL.

Let's see what page I am on for a minute. I believe there is what could be termed a superconcious. This concept was explored in a book I read a very long time ago. There is no proof that anything like this exists, but it is evidenced in displays of emapathy, or sympathy pains between mates and family members. There are also documented cases where someone had absolutely no knowledge of some disaster befalling a loved one, deciding to call them out of the blue, and find out that they just died.

While these are significant facts, they do not prove anything. If this exists, it is certainly not understood. Although a few governments did do a bunch of research, I don't think they got very far.

So if this superconcious exists, and that is only the term I use for lack of a better one, it is not supernatural. In fact there is nothing supernatural, if it came with the universe, it is natural. It is simply something which we do not yet understand.

So how the hell can all this pertain to this thread ? AHA !

If we are all linked, but it seems many are ignoring that link, those who do not ignore the link have what we call human qualities. And remember, there is nothing supernatural. Some people can ignore all this and still be good, but to be bad, it surely must be ignored.

So if we are instilled with a part of us that is indeed spiritual in some form, or at least a communication which we do not yet understand, that would mean that our lives are infinite. Which means it does not matter who lives or dies corporeally.

But in our corporeal lives, we have no right to take another's corporeal life. So abortion is murder plain and simple, but I am all for it. Animals eatr their young sometimes. And this is done for the preservation of the species. It is instinct.

I think by putting an overintrinsic value on human life we have cheapened it. Would you rather put your firstborn daughter out of the igloo to freeze to death or would you rather try the back alley looking for a guy with a coathanger ? Abortion is still murder, but without it we might have triple the population in how many years ? Have to stop by one of those websites.

There are about 300,000,000 people in the US. What happens when we have a billion people ?

So my conclusion is that the sad truth is that we have to let people kill their unborn. This is a bad thing to say about the human race, if anyone was watching. Or perhaps they are and that is why we do not hear from them.

You take the good with the bad, otherwise be on the next moon flight.

T

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 8:33:53 PM   
CuriousLord


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You know, if population's the problem, we aren't entirely against killing people.. I hear wars are good for the economy.  ;)

I agree, abortion really is a convinent answer.  Even in cases when it's "agonized over", if they chose it, it's because doing that's easier than the alternative.  And, I agree that, if we look the other way, it'll all work out quite nicely.

I'd try to give a better response later.  Unfortunately for me, empathy is one of the few emotions I do experience to any mentionable degree.

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RE: Abortion - 10/11/2007 1:47:22 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

You know, if population's the problem, we aren't entirely against killing people.. I hear wars are good for the economy.  ;)

I agree, abortion really is a convinent answer.  Even in cases when it's "agonized over", if they chose it, it's because doing that's easier than the alternative.  And, I agree that, if we look the other way, it'll all work out quite nicely.

I'd try to give a better response later.  Unfortunately for me, empathy is one of the few emotions I do experience to any mentionable degree.


not easier than the alternative, but the best alternative for all involved....that being the folks that are alive and would be responsible for the care if the pregnancy was allowed to continue...........

none of this is easy......life aint easy most days

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: Abortion - 10/11/2007 3:47:08 PM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
none of this is easy......life aint easy most days


"Life is hard...life is always hard. We just have to learn to be grateful for the days that aren't as hard as others."

-me

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RE: Abortion - 10/11/2007 6:22:16 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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just fucking bravo!!!

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Abortion - 10/11/2007 8:23:35 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
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From: P'burgh PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Absolutely! We agree, I think, on the importance of empathy. I believe it's a crucial ingredient in human community and moral progress. Indeed, one of my favorite lines in a lifetime of avid reading is Lear's command to himself: "Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel."

When I said that empathy is an emotion, I wasn't dismissing it. I think empathy's importance lies precisely in its being an emotion. Empathy doesn't simply give us an intellectual perspective, valuable though that is, on someone else's situation. It enables us to feel a glimmer of what someone else might feel. The word, after all, is rooted in pathos, Greek for "feeling."

Empathy has given you a clear, strong stance on abortion. Interestingly, it's had the opposite effect on me. That's because my empathy tends to be mulitfaceted. I'm cursed or blessed--can't decide which some days--with being one of those folks who see every side in every situation. I drive my friends nuts empathizing with the villains in their stories, and I could probably muster compassion (a word I prefer to empathy) for my own murderer, particularly if s/he struck while I was wrestling with a deadline.

And so, when it comes to abortion, I empathize with a host of characters:

-- the baby, growing and kicking in the womb (I confess I have a harder time working up feelings for the microscopic, undifferentiated organism of the early stages),

-- the women who have shared their powerful stories on this thread,

-- the woman honestly wrestling with the question of whether she can be a good mother to her baby if she carries it to term,

-- the unwanted child who is abused or spends a grim childhood being shuffled from foster home to foster home,

-- the family that fractures from the strain of caring for a disabled child they didn't have the emotional resources to rear,

-- the young, promising student who puts out for an eager boyfriend, winds up pregnant, and is terrified her family will disown her,

-- the women who choose to continue their pregnancies anyway, making sacrifices I cannot begin to fathom,

-- the person, born in difficult circumstances, who thinks "Holy shit. My mom could have aborted me."

-- the mother who feels that glib talk about "quality of life" disses her handicapped child,

-- women who are outraged when men, who will never face the abortion dilemma personally, never be asked or required to surrender part of their own bodies to another being, seek to curtail a woman's access to abortion,

-- men who feel censored when they're told that men have no right to have views about abortion,

-- Harry Blackmun, who agonized about the rights of both mother and child while writing his Roe opinion, and

-- all of us honestly seeking the light on this tough issue.

For me, empathy means that there are no easy answers on this issue.




This is so good I wanted to bump it back up so it could be read again.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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