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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:15:51 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

indignate hormonal display


Testosterone?

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:18:34 PM   
chellekitty


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Status: offline 		Jen.....i stated, clearly, in capital letters, those are my personal beliefs...and if you want me to stay out of your womb, stay out of my personal belief system...

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 10/9/2007 8:20:10 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:18:59 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you?  How would you feel if she had?


These incendiary questions seem unlikely to introduce more "logical thoughts" into the discussion.


I guess empathy isn't logical.


No, empathy is an emotion.

Besides, you weren't aiming to stir empathy. You were trying to sow guilt.

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:21:17 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

indignate hormonal display


Testosterone?


I suppose it is present in females to a surficiently significant degree to cause such behavior.

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:22:28 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

indignate hormonal display


Testosterone?


I suppose it is present in females to a surficiently significant degree to cause such behavior.


Do you mean that to be as dismissive and sexist as it sounds?

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:25:35 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Do you mean that to be as dismissive and sexist as it sounds?


Wasn't the first comment of the same manner?  ;)

I moreso took you as joking.  Since most of.. indignant.. posters earlier were female (all?), the tease seemed appropriate.  You haven't need to worry; it's meant as humor.

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:26:00 PM   
junecleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you?  How would you feel if she had?


These incendiary questions seem unlikely to introduce more "logical thoughts" into the discussion.


I guess empathy isn't logical.


No, empathy is an emotion.

Besides, you weren't aiming to stir empathy. You were trying to sow guilt.


A lot of people tend to follw the golden rule.  You treat others how you want to be treated.  Not saying Jen follows this rule, because I don't know.  It's just common.  I don't understand how opting for an abortion follows this rule.  Plus, to be honest, I'm just curious.  It would be interesting if others who were pro-abortion answered the question as well.

I think it's a valid question.  And it's ridiculous to say I'm trying to guilt people.  What if the tables were turned?  Is my life as important as someone else's?  I was conceived and born into a situation that many people have already said justifies abortion.  My mom tettered on the edge of an abortion because so many others were telling her it's okay.  Hell no, it's not okay.  It's was my life.  And I will never believe that it would have been okay for my mother to terminate me.  Maybe this comes as a shocker, but at some point in time, someone had the right to terminate your life too.

It's just a question.  No need to freak out about it. 

+edited because that wasn't exactly what I meant...lol


< Message edited by junecleaver -- 10/9/2007 8:32:04 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:32:54 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

I guess empathy isn't logical.


No, empathy is an emotion.


Oh!  I'd have to strongly disagree!

You see, we're not entirely sure how to define ourselves, so we often do so vaguely.  Empathy is, largely, our source of identity.  We see ourself in "ourself", true.  But "ourself" in this second usage is quite subjective!  You see, it seems obvious to us it's us- but that's only because it happens to be what we empathize with more immediately.

Some people experience empathy to varying degrees; at times, I'd almost like to attribute empathy as coorelating to the ability to process abstract thought, though this may be jumping the gun.

In any case, empathy is seeing a bit of yourself in others.  How much, which others.. the extent of it, to put it in vulgar terms, is quite the issue.  One such as myself, for example.. I can see myself as a fetus.  I can see one grow, I can see its human form.  Due to my exposure to Biology, I'm intimately aware of how similar it is to me and other aspects of my identity, such as those I know and love.  This predisposes me to be more against abortion than those who haven't really stopped to consider the humanity in such a thing, who feel that humans outside of the womb are entirely different creatures, while one such as myself would see the physical placement as little more than arbitrary.

In any case, it would be my argument that empathy is a supremely important thing for us to keep in mind.  Quite a beloved subject!

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:39:18 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

No need to freak out about it. 


Oh, I wasn't freaking out. I was simply observing that your question (a) seemed unlikely to produce the "logical thoughts" you'd criticised a fellow poster of failing to provide and (b) struck me as a manipulative effort to induce guilt.

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:47:02 PM   
junecleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

No need to freak out about it. 


Oh, I wasn't freaking out. I was simply observing that your question (a) seemed unlikely to produce the "logical thoughts" you'd criticised a fellow poster of failing to provide and (b) struck me as a manipulative effort to induce guilt.


Heh, it wasn't really meant as criticism.  Reactionary is reactionary.  Sometimes it produces a good thought, other times it doesn't.  In this case, I felt it definitely did not.

Once again, I'll state it wasn't an effort to guilt anyone.  Too bad a valid question is non-chalantly swept under the rug because it might make someone uncomfortable.

CL covered the importance of the question a lot more eloquently than I did.


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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 8:52:27 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


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Status: offline 		quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you?  How would you feel if she had?

---

My mother, who grew up as a repressed Catholic and got married because she "had to" asked me this question in the middle of a very heated conversation about this topic.  I said that I wouldn't have been around to feel the loss.  I wouldn't have felt anything.  You can't miss what you aren't aware of.  I thought it was an absurd argument, and I still do.  It's never made sense to me. 

I think my mother did have the right to abort me.  At this point, though, I hope she's decided to give up that option.

MSS

< Message edited by MySweetSubmssive -- 10/9/2007 8:53:59 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 9:02:28 PM   
junecleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you?  How would you feel if she had?

---

My mother, who grew up as a repressed Catholic and got married because she "had to" asked me this question in the middle of a very heated conversation about this topic.  I said that I wouldn't have been around to feel the loss.  I wouldn't have felt anything.  You can't miss what you aren't aware of.  I thought it was an absurd argument, and I still do.  It's never made sense to me. 

I think my mother did have the right to abort me.  At this point, though, I hope she's decided to give up that option.

MSS


Where do you draw that line of awareness?  Can I strangle a severely retarded pretty much vegetable state kind of adult because they won't miss what they were never aware of?  If someone could concretely prove to me when life began, then I would have no problem with abortions before that point.  But no one has the right to make that value judgment and I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I think we are aware of things on a more than physical level and I think if I were aborted I would notice it.

I take it as a personal affront that someone thought they could just cut me up and suck me out.  It's really hard for me to understand how you can feel differently.  Could you elaborate on your last statement a little bit more?


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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 9:11:55 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


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Status: offline 		I can't miss a life I don't have if I am aborted at, say, 12 weeks.  My time here would have been cut short and I would be off living some other life. 

I am not certain when the soul enters into the body, and I think that's important, because this person/fetus/being might experience abortion differently if the soul wasn't in the body yet.  It may be different for each soul.  My random guess, looking at how the "deaths" of miscarried babies are treated in most sects of Christianity -- no burial, no service ... i.e.  not seen as a death  -- and that the Catholic church used to sanction abortions until quickening (about 20 weeks gestation), is that it may be about half way through the pregnancy.  But none of us know.  My own experience of this is that I felt a "presence" with me when I was pregnant, but did not feel that it was incarnated.

Odd stuff, this.  And, clearly, these are only my own experiences.

MSS

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 9:15:36 PM   
junecleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

I can't miss a life I don't have if I am aborted at, say, 12 weeks.  My time here would have been cut short and I would be off living some other life. 

I am not certain when the soul enters into the body, and I think that's important, because this person/fetus/being might experience abortion differently if the soul wasn't in the body yet.  It may be different for each soul.  My random guess, looking at how the "deaths" of miscarried babies are treated in most sects of Christianity -- no burial, no service ... i.e.  not seen as a death  -- and that the Catholic church used to sanction abortions until quickening (about 20 weeks gestation), is that it may be about half way through the pregnancy.  But none of us know.  My own experience of this is that I felt a "presence" with me when I was pregnant, but did not feel that it was incarnated.

Odd stuff, this.  And, clearly, these are only my own experiences.

MSS


When you say off living some other life, do you mean reincarnation-ish type of thing? 


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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 9:17:45 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


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Status: offline 		Precisely.  Again, I can't know if reincarnation really happens, but given that it's a part of a number of religions (including Christianity until the second century), and has been hypothesized in certain areas of physics, it's possible.

MSS

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 9:35:43 PM   
deadbluebird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

Where do you draw that line of awareness?



when there is brain activity, which starts at about the 10th week of pregnancy.

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RE: Abortion - 10/9/2007 9:46:38 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

Precisely.  Again, I can't know if reincarnation really happens, but given that it's a part of a number of religions (including Christianity until the second century), and has been hypothesized in certain areas of physics, it's possible.


I can assure you, not credible arena of Physics recognizes reincarnation as a true possibility.

Not that Physics is absolutely positive that it doesn't happen.  For all you know, MySweetSubissive, when you walk back into your bedroom, you'll find a huge pile of 24K gold.  Still, you have no reason to believe this would happen; therefore, it's entirely unreasonble to expect it.

Unlike gold in your bedroom, which, let's admit, could happen due to causes we know of (such as a jewelry supply truck crashing near your window), however unlikely they may be, reincarnation strikes us as not only highly improbably, but likely impossible.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 1:53:56 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

Precisely.  Again, I can't know if reincarnation really happens, but given that it's a part of a number of religions (including Christianity until the second century), and has been hypothesized in certain areas of physics, it's possible.


I can assure you, not credible arena of Physics recognizes reincarnation as a true possibility.

Not that Physics is absolutely positive that it doesn't happen.  For all you know, MySweetSubissive, when you walk back into your bedroom, you'll find a huge pile of 24K gold.  Still, you have no reason to believe this would happen; therefore, it's entirely unreasonble to expect it.

Unlike gold in your bedroom, which, let's admit, could happen due to causes we know of (such as a jewelry supply truck crashing near your window), however unlikely they may be, reincarnation strikes us as not only highly improbably, but likely impossible.


Physics or Philosophy??  Energy is never destroyed it only changes form is a law of physics and if we know that thoughts can be measured as energy then how would physics prove reincarnation is not possible?  It would suggest that it is entirely possible.  Human energy (soul) is no different from other forms of energy, i.e. it is not dependent upon having a life-support system as well evidenced in dead people's bodies staying viable long after the brain has atrophied as long as the body is hooked up to machines.  If you believe the energy is dependent upon a life-support system (body) then unplug your television, take off the casing and grab hold of the magnet at the back of the picture tube.  Shocking, isn't it? 

Now here's a new thought for the thread... if the body appears alive, then unplugging any life-support is also murder as certain as abortion.  Unplugging a loved-one is a murder of economics, convenience and quality of life isn't it?



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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:06:48 AM   
CuriousLord


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Let's just say the Cons..

..I've hit my disillusioning quota for tonight.  Even I can't bare this.

Yeah.  Souls are made out of energy, which can't be destroyed. So I guess it's possible that some kind their ways back to new bodies.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 6:07:57 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

For the first part of the post, I'm not responding; I answered your question in the first place because you asked, twice in a row.  Still, though, I'm not interested in pounding you about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Now i am going to say here i asked you answer my question.
The reason i asked you to answer is because i wanted to see if you actually would be a hypocrite. You have repeatedly asked people not to call you names for your beliefs and opinions and yet you called me an inhuman monster.


Excuse me for saying "Therefore, you were an inhuman monster in those decisions" after you asked me, then confirmed when I asked if you really wanted to know.  I can see how it was hypocritical of me to answer a question you really wanted to know the answer to.

Actually i was asking you to clarify that you had called me an inhuman monster in a previous post. I like to be sure before i call someone a hypocrite. As you confirmed you had called me this, yes you are a hypocrite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I will also now ask you again why you cannot accept that to have an abortion or not have an abortion is individual choice.


Is shooting someone an individual choice?  Of course it is.  That doesn't mean it's not murder.
By definition murder is illegal, abortion is not. Therefore in my opinion a wrong definition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
You are entitled to your opinion but it is just that, opinion.


Until it's backed up with reason that's up for debate and evidence.  Then it's a scientific theory.

Where is your evidence that makes your opinion fact?
Yes its a debate but scientific theory still boils down to opinion.

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