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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 7:20:35 AM

BoiJen

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fast reply...I wasn't responding to anybody in particular just reacting to the idea of when life "begins"

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 7:39:11 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Apologies for lateness of reply i've been ill.

Did your illness come about from eating too many dead babies?

Anywhooo....It's fun to watch this thread get blown around....When does the soul enter the body? Hopefully after the little tyke slides out of the canal....Some of those thangs can smell rather funky and I would think such an experience could possibly tarnish one's soul for quite some time....Perhaps this is how serial killers are derived?

In all seriousness, as I have stated before....If one is truly outraged by the fact of abortion, then they must blow a gasket when they consider all of the miscarriages that occur across this great land of ours.....So many of these so called miscarriages must be considered as murder....Since the miscarriage was caused directly by the woman or her lifestyle or possibly could be attributed to the pharmaceutical companies and the medications that they have dispensed that have poisoned her womb.....I'm sure that more miscarriages in this country are the result of a direct action other than "natural causes" than all of the abortions combined....Where is the outrage?

Edited to add:.....With about 1.2 million abortions performed each year in the U.S. it is but a drop in the bucket when you consider that 281,057,000 people were born last year.....Now consider that roughly 40% of all pregnancies end in a miscarriage.....If the definition of life begins at conception, why are we even worried about 1.2 million deaths?....The real killer is miscarriages....Think how many miscarriages are the result of external forces, which must be viewed as at least "manslaughter" if not outright murder...It goes to show that people will focus on the small number because they are unable or unwilling to grasp the "big picture." If you are truly concerned about the loss of life than FOCUS!!!....It would be akin to asking people to turn off their garden hose in the hope that it might prevent New Orleans from flooding.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 10/10/2007 8:12:29 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 12:28:13 PM

missturbation

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Did your illness come about from eating too many dead babies?

Funny you should say that, i have a pretty bad mouth infection accompanied by fever. Divine retribution maybe lol.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 12:29:50 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you? How would you feel if she had?

---

My mother, who grew up as a repressed Catholic and got married because she "had to" asked me this question in the middle of a very heated conversation about this topic. I said that I wouldn't have been around to feel the loss. I wouldn't have felt anything. You can't miss what you aren't aware of. I thought it was an absurd argument, and I still do. It's never made sense to me.

I think my mother did have the right to abort me. At this point, though, I hope she's decided to give up that option.

MSS

my kids 19 now and almost human......i think i will give up the abortion option on his 20th bday if he continues to grow.....

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 12:30:53 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you? How would you feel if she had?

---

My mother, who grew up as a repressed Catholic and got married because she "had to" asked me this question in the middle of a very heated conversation about this topic. I said that I wouldn't have been around to feel the loss. I wouldn't have felt anything. You can't miss what you aren't aware of. I thought it was an absurd argument, and I still do. It's never made sense to me.

I think my mother did have the right to abort me. At this point, though, I hope she's decided to give up that option.

MSS

Where do you draw that line of awareness? Can I strangle a severely retarded pretty much vegetable state kind of adult because they won't miss what they were never aware of? If someone could concretely prove to me when life began, then I would have no problem with abortions before that point. But no one has the right to make that value judgment and I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I think we are aware of things on a more than physical level and I think if I were aborted I would notice it.

I take it as a personal affront that someone thought they could just cut me up and suck me out. It's really hard for me to understand how you can feel differently. Could you elaborate on your last statement a little bit more?

re: the red font...........huh?

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 12:44:19 PM

DesertRat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
my kids 19 now and almost human......i think i will give up the abortion option on his 20th bday if he continues to grow.....

One of my anthro profs suggested that life begins when the fetus gets a degree and starts paying off its student loans.

Bob

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 1:35:44 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Apologies for lateness of reply i've been ill.

No need for an apology, though I do hope you feel better!

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord [CL's note: Snipped here to reduce backquote.]
Until it's backed up with reason that's up for debate and evidence. Then it's a scientific theory.

Where is your evidence that makes your opinion fact?

Ack. This one's.. well, I guess I'd need which specific 'opinion' you're referring to. (Most things seem to require a lot of different facts, so listing off all my opinions related to this subject would be.. long.. heh.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Yes its a debate but scientific theory still boils down to opinion.

I really.. don't see "opinion" in the same way. I believe there's a better way of looking at it.

In general, people can tend to agree upon some basics of what it means to be generally healthy, such as lacking diseases and other physical ailments, being in a desirable physical condition, not requiring medical services to maintain one's self, etc.

Regardless of this, though, people have different "opinion"s one what a healthy diet is for the average person. Some might argue that fat-free diets are better (as many do), some might argue that a diet of lots of meats is best (Dr. Atkins and such), while others might proclaim a diet either high in or lacking of paricular foods. Heck, other advocate having a general mix of things in general for variety, while others might say that whatever your platet desires is what you need!

In all honesty, there's a particular diet which, within reason, would likely be healthiest for one person, with results all would agree with are more healthy, should they be able to see the whole picture. So, despite them all having an "opinion"- one of them is right, regardless of the presense of other, different opinions. It's entirely possible, if not probable, that none of them are entirely right.

To me, it seems that the general way of dealing with this sort of disagreement is to say, "Everyone has their own opinion; respect it. Yours is no more right than the others'." Nonetheless, I couldn't disagree more.

Rather, I feel it's important everyone sit around and talk about why they believe these things. Why, for instance, does one believe that a diet lacking in fats would be healthy? Or what's the deal with the all-meat bit? I can assure you, at least one of these opinions is wrong for certain; it's very likely (though not certain, I suppose) that both are wrong. But this isn't entirely important, as the opinions themselves shouldn't carry any weight. It's the ideas that form those opinions.

Should either party say, "I just think so"- well, I'm sorry, but it's completely unreasonable to consider their opinion as valid, or to respect it beyond the point of understanding that that's how this person feels.

Then the debate comes in. People should come together, pooling their points, trying to put it together in one, larger picture; this picture is very much likely to be more complex than any of the component reasonings, though, for this, it is likely to gain prospective and accuracy.

This is how my "opinions" are formed. My thoughts on matters are the synthesis of all reasonings I've encountered and cataloged; which I'm constantly doing. At no point did I say, "I feel this is wrong- therefore, it's my opinion it is", but, at any given moment, my opinion is a dictated by the collective reasonings.

This process parallels the scientific method as an analog to the point that it is the scientific method; to continue taking in empiracle data to form governing rules and predictions for things in general, all of which are prone to change when new data should contradict such predictions as observed.

In this regard, I do not care for opinions; just their reasonings. This approach is scientific.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 1:45:12 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

In all seriousness, as I have stated before....If one is truly outraged by the fact of abortion, then they must blow a gasket when they consider all of the miscarriages that occur across this great land of ours.....So many of these so called miscarriages must be considered as murder....Since the miscarriage was caused directly by the woman or her lifestyle or possibly could be attributed to the pharmaceutical companies and the medications that they have dispensed that have poisoned her womb.....I'm sure that more miscarriages in this country are the result of a direct action other than "natural causes" than all of the abortions combined....Where is the outrage?

It tends to make itself manifest in the general hatred for the stupidity of humanity. Little drives me more in my research than the notion that, if I didn't work on it so hard, people would continue doing these dumb things.

Those women who cause those miscarriages aren't guilty of murder, though, so much as man slaughter. Since many are likely hard-struck to understand that any particular action that they're taking would likely lead to a miscarriage, it's more man slaughter due to ignorance. Since this ignorance is common, the solution seems to be to hate the cause- not the manevolence of the woman, but the lack of information out there.

Sort of like how we can't just go hating people for kids starving in Africa or Asia. More of a problem to fix than to try to find someone to punish.

This said, miscarriages can be tried as murder when intentionally caused by someone else (such as a man shoving a pregnant woman down stairs). Those are deliberate and, if I recall the clipped California law mentioned earlier in this thread collectly, tried as murder.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:14:16 PM

missturbation

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As far as i can remember and this has been a long thread so i won't guarantee i'm correct, you have only stated opinion. I cannot remember seeing anything you have stated backed up with fact.

To be completely honest the fact you do not agree with abortion bothers me not one bit, you are entitled to your opinion. What does bother me is that you call it murder. Now yeah you and others can say whats in a word but when i see a word so incorrectly used it annoys me. Murder is illegal, abortion is not. You said in a previous post you use this term by definition, well i'm sorry but i'm pretty sure that by definition murder is an illegal act and therefore not appropriate to this discussion.

The inhuman monster comment, well, ok thats how you see me and you have every right to voice that opinion but not when you are asking others not to name call you in the same thread. And please do not go back to the 'i asked you' to line of defence as i asked you to clarify that you had already called me it, not call me it in the first place.

I think that you are so passionate about this debate is extremely admirable but i would ask you to step back and try and see that what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone. Try and understand that you have not been in the position that some of us have, and that until you are you cannot say 100% what you would do.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:15:23 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive
quote:

Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you? How would you feel if she had?

---

My mother, who grew up as a repressed Catholic and got married because she "had to" asked me this question in the middle of a very heated conversation about this topic. I said that I wouldn't have been around to feel the loss. I wouldn't have felt anything. You can't miss what you aren't aware of. I thought it was an absurd argument, and I still do. It's never made sense to me.

I think my mother did have the right to abort me. At this point, though, I hope she's decided to give up that option.

My apologies for responding to this one after it's already a bit old; saw it in some other backquotes and thought it was neat to respond to.

The "it's not aware" argument is pretty common with regards to killing a fetus not being a bad thing. (Argument being, it's not conscious of it, so even it doesn't care.)

In any case, while a person sleeps, this person can be killed without their awareness, nor are they aware at the time. Knowing this, is it not somewhat absurd to say that one must be aware of his own death for it to be a murder?

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:19:15 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive
Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you? How would you feel if she had?

Like----like---like how could I possibly give a fuck?
See where I am goin' with this?

Ron

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:28:08 PM

curiousexplorer

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If abortion is murder, then masturbation is a sin and bdsm lifestylers are hedonistic devil worshippers condemned to hell.
Abortion is completely natural, it happens all the time without any intervention from people. If religious nuts want to ban abortion, they can start with their gods version of it, once they get their god to stop, then they can move on to people.
Also, if we look at nature, when an adult animal does not want it's offspring, or cannot feed it's offspring, it simply abandons it and leaves it to die. Anyone trying to make abortion illegal needs to accept the natural alternative of dumping unwanted offspring. That's dumping to die, not adopting. If abortion is against god or nature, then so is adoption.
But if someone does try to make adoption the alternative for abortion, first every abadnoned child must have a home. While one is without a home, abortion must stay.

i really wish people would study history, sociology, biology and nature.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:32:15 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousexplorer
i really wish people would study history, sociology, biology and nature.

I don't for that would be a nightmare, trust me.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:33:01 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

As far as i can remember and this has been a long thread so i won't guarantee i'm correct, you have only stated opinion. I cannot remember seeing anything you have stated backed up with fact.

It'd be easier for me if you could cite something so I could address it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
To be completely honest the fact you do not agree with abortion bothers me not one bit, you are entitled to your opinion. What does bother me is that you call it murder. Now yeah you and others can say whats in a word but when i see a word so incorrectly used it annoys me. Murder is illegal, abortion is not. You said in a previous post you use this term by definition, well i'm sorry but i'm pretty sure that by definition murder is an illegal act and therefore not appropriate to this discussion.

I carry the opinion that those slave masters who whipped abducted slaves to death in their plantion fields are murders, even if what they did was legal. To me, the word "murder" is not dictated by any particular set of laws from any particular culture.

Would you disagree with my statement about slave owners? If so, let's talk. If not, I'm inclined to say that you may agree with me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
The inhuman monster comment, well, ok thats how you see me and you have every right to voice that opinion but not when you are asking others not to name call you in the same thread.

missturbation, I do not believe in just randomly insulting people. What I said to you was not meant as in insult; you asked my opinion. That was my sincere, honest opinion, meant without malice; it would have been a lie if I had said anything else. Further, you were aware it would likely be that- it's not like I blind-sided you with something unexpected.

Please understand the difference between calling someone "stupid" because you want to insult them, and telling someone, "Are you sure you want to know my opinion? Yes, I think it's stupid of you to slam your head in the door on purpose." Both times, you're calling the person stupid. The first time, it was meant maliciously, as an insult. In the second, it was an earnest statement of opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
And please do not go back to the 'i asked you' to line of defence as i asked you to clarify that you had already called me it, not call me it in the first place.

No? My apoligies if I misunderstood, but I just checked back through the pages. You said: "So are you saying that i am an inhuman monster?" So, I thought you were asking if I thought that you were "an inhuman monster".

I'd like to note that you later told me that you were just bating me so you could call me a hypocrit. I could cite it, if you'd like, though it seems like a petty thing to be concerned about. This is the first time you've mentioned anything about wanting to understand my reasonsings. I'm pretty sure, though, I gave a thorough explanation instead of just calling you it.

Regardless, I suppose the line of questioning is rather moot now. A moderator has informed me that, regardless of a lack of malicious intent or the presense of honesty, it is not appropriate to make such statements on these boards. Therefore, if you were to ask me again, I fear I would be obligated to decline answering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I think that you are so passionate about this debate is extremely admirable but i would ask you to step back and try and see that what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone. Try and understand that you have not been in the position that some of us have, and that until you are you cannot say 100% what you would do.

If, missturbation, I was driving a car one night, on a lonely road, and hit some kids playing out in it due to my own negligance.. and killed all but one.. well, I'd be in a rather poor position, wouldn't I be?

Can you imagine the horror? I'd know, for certain, I'd spend the rest of my years in jail, hated for killing innocent kids while my family would probably be disgusted. I'd never be able to see my love outside of a prisoner meeting room ever again.

You know, I could entirely avoid it if I just killed the last kid and drove off. Would you fault me for acting this way in the face of horror? I would.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/10/2007 2:42:15 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:36:14 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive
Let me put it this way...Did your mom have the right to abort you? How would you feel if she had?

Like----like---like how could I possibly give a fuck?
See where I am goin' with this?

How could you possibly give a fuck if someone killed you in your sleep?

Edit: Well, without your prior knowledge. I guess if you knew it was coming, that could be pretty upsetting. :P

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/10/2007 2:37:30 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:40:10 PM

subtee

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quote:

If abortion is murder, then masturbation is a sin and bdsm lifestylers are hedonistic devil worshippers condemned to hell.

Well, duh. *snort*

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:43:12 PM

missturbation

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It'd be easier for me if you could cite something so I could address it
Too much stuff to cite and too little enthusiasm to do it.
In future with regards to this thread though i will just ask for proof instantly if i feel you are stating as fact.

I carry the opinion that those slave masters who whipped abducted slaves to death in their plantion fields are murders, even if what they did was legal. To me, the word "murder" is not dictated by any particular set of laws from any particular culture.

Would you disagree with my statement about slave owners? If so, let's talk. If not, I'm inclined to say that you may agree with me.
Yes i would disagree with your statement. I would not call them murderers as they acted lawfully.

If, missturbation, I was driving a car one night, on a lonely road, and hit some kids playing out in it due to my own negligance.. and killed all but one.. well, I'd be in a rather poor position, wouldn't I be?

Can you imagine the horror? I'd know, for certain, I'd spend the rest of my years in jail, hated for killing innocent kids while my family would probably be disgusted. I'd never be able to see my love outside of a prisoner meeting room ever again.

You know, I could entirely avoid it if I just killed the last kid and drove off. Would you fault me for acting this way in the face of horror? I would.
This has nothing to do with what i asked you.
The debate here is abortion not hit and run.
I am asking you to step away from THIS discussion and think about THIS discussion, nothing else.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:43:16 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
quote:

If abortion is murder, then masturbation is a sin and bdsm lifestylers are hedonistic devil worshippers condemned to hell.

Well, duh. *snort*

I guess that, if people are going to put words in my mouth, at least it should be funny, right? ;)

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:45:19 PM

FullCircle

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The last word you want in your mouth is antidisestablishmentarianism that’s a bit of a choker.

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RE: Abortion - 10/10/2007 2:48:13 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
It'd be easier for me if you could cite something so I could address it
Too much stuff to cite and too little enthusiasm to do it.
In future with regards to this thread though i will just ask for proof instantly if i feel you are stating as fact.

Well, you see.. that's what I'm doing.. asking for proof of something you said..
It shouldn't be that hard.. I've made tons of posts, so if everything I say is opinion, any particular post should do.. right? =/

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I carry the opinion that those slave masters who whipped abducted slaves to death in their plantion fields are murders, even if what they did was legal. To me, the word "murder" is not dictated by any particular set of laws from any particular culture.

Would you disagree with my statement about slave owners? If so, let's talk. If not, I'm inclined to say that you may agree with me.
Yes i would disagree with your statement. I would not call them murderers as they acted lawfully.

If you use legal definitions, and engage in anal sex, would your mate not be a rapist?

I'm against using laws to define morality, but, if it works for you..

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
If, missturbation, I was driving a car one night, on a lonely road, and hit some kids playing out in it due to my own negligance.. and killed all but one.. well, I'd be in a rather poor position, wouldn't I be?

Can you imagine the horror? I'd know, for certain, I'd spend the rest of my years in jail, hated for killing innocent kids while my family would probably be disgusted. I'd never be able to see my love outside of a prisoner meeting room ever again.

You know, I could entirely avoid it if I just killed the last kid and drove off. Would you fault me for acting this way in the face of horror? I would.
This has nothing to do with what i asked you.
The debate here is abortion not hit and run.
I am asking you to step away from THIS discussion and think about THIS discussion, nothing else.

You asked me to step back and put myself in their position. As many posters have been quick to point out, I can't be pregnant. So, I went with the next best thing.

Esecentially, you're saying that abortion is done to avoid incredible suffering, right? Would the suffering brought by an inconvinent abortion by a woman who concieved it while engaging in fully consentual sex truly be condemned to a fate worse than life in jail while being hated by her friends and family, never to be free again?

If not, I'd argue that this analogy is kind to your position.

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