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Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 9:16:02 AM

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MY THOUGHT: The reason this is a turn off for SOME mistresses is that while sissification is done in our venue, it's the Mistress' idea.. not the submissive's. THAT'S what makes it BDSM.

When the sissy comes already "dressed to the wiitwd party", there is nothing left for the Mistress to do really. She can't actually do forced feminization.. he already presents that he likes it. There are rare mistresses that enjoy just watching sissy prance about.. but is it really BDSM?

Tawk amoungst yourselves, discuss :)

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 12:56:08 PM

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I agree to some extent. While forced feminization is a form of taking control, not all submission or domination has to be forced. The fact that a guy comes dressed and is making himself vulnerable, giving you control, is control play just as equally as is forced feminization.

On that note, I think a lot of guys who have closests full of outfits and come dressed to the nines (in their party dresses or what have you) are topping from the bottom by taking an active hand in their fetish without your consent, and that, to me, is not attractive even as someone who wouldn't be in the top position to begin with.

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 2:02:12 PM

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Well this is exactly it, feminisation is not only geared towards BDSM alone. It has many facets to it, I love it to be honest.

Some like the fetish, the exhibitionism, the thrill of the transformation without any BDSM activities at all.

The BDSM sissys/tv's/cd's: enjoy more mainstream BDSM activities, aswell as humiliation, enforced bi activities and being used in that way.

The maids, well they simply love being of use, house-maids, personal Domme maids, house-hold chores, shopping, cleaning etc, and yes prancing around for all to see lol.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 2:16:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressRouge

Well this is exactly it, feminisation is not only geared towards BDSM alone. It has many facets to it, I love it to be honest.

Some like the fetish, the exhibitionism, the thrill of the transformation without any BDSM activities at all.

The BDSM sissys/tv's/cd's: enjoy more mainstream BDSM activities, aswell as humiliation, enforced bi activities and being used in that way.

The maids, well they simply love being of use, house-maids, personal Domme maids, house-hold chores, shopping, cleaning etc, and yes prancing around for all to see lol.

My friend's husband, who is a cross dresser, involved himself in the BDSM scene only to find that he really had no interest in it but felt it would be a good place to dress up.

So there he was, all dressed up at a dungeon party with no real interest in him but his own. It really isn't a "fetish" for him.

For those in a like situation, would it not be better for them to support each other in groups geared specifically for them? While a cross dresser might be into BDSM.. not all BDSM'ers are into cross dressers.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 11/1/2007 2:17:40 PM >

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 2:34:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressRouge

Well this is exactly it, feminisation is not only geared towards BDSM alone. It has many facets to it, I love it to be honest.

Some like the fetish, the exhibitionism, the thrill of the transformation without any BDSM activities at all.

The BDSM sissys/tv's/cd's: enjoy more mainstream BDSM activities, aswell as humiliation, enforced bi activities and being used in that way.

The maids, well they simply love being of use, house-maids, personal Domme maids, house-hold chores, shopping, cleaning etc, and yes prancing around for all to see lol.

My friend's husband, who is a cross dresser, involved himself in the BDSM scene only to find that he really had no interest in it but felt it would be a good place to dress up.

So there he was, all dressed up at a dungeon party with no real interest in him but his own. It really isn't a "fetish" for him.

For those in a like situation, would it not be better for them to support each other in groups geared specifically for them? While a cross dresser might be into BDSM.. not all BDSM'ers are into cross dressers.

That is true LotusSong :)

I have a mixture to My harem now lol.

I have visited many fetish parties and clubs, and I like the dynamic of the mixture of folk there, irrelevant of their own particular areas of lifestyle, usually it tends to work very well.

For heavy BDSM/leather orientated gatherings, maybe a frilly sissy would not gel in that kind of party lol. However, acceptance should be for all, not what their preferences are.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 7:40:12 PM

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My experience was that I generally found Ladies approaching me who saw the "feminization" as something optional that I'd get over once they started spanking me or something. Or they wanted someone who had already accepted it and embraced themselves as "sissy" because they felt that forcing a boy to be feminine was degrading of femininity - which I can see being the problem in/for some.

By the time I found someone who wanted a boy to dress and play with as a girl I had developed a sort of check list of "yes, but do you really want a sissy" which drove off any genuine candidates :( What the hell is this boy doing trying to figure out my motives? Very unsubby, very unsissy.

When I started my search it was a huge struggle to wear girly things and I could barely cast my mind beyond what might happen to have a women keep me wearing panties. Yes, I'd be very happy to be force-feminized in all the areas I neglect and avoid, and for me dressing is still the doorway to my subbie side, the start of play. I can never stop being a man, have no desire to, so as much as part of me loves it, being femme is always an act of will. Sure, many nights or days it would be my pleasure to ask if I can wear the pink panties, but there will always be days when I want to ask if I can skulk around in my boxers and watch some porn.

And for me it has all been very private, I don't think it'll feel "real" until someone has handed me some clothes to wear, I've put them on and I see the twinkle in her eye that says "he does look kind of ridiculous but I think I know what to do with him". Standing there trying for all the world to not make Mistress feel sorry for the poor clothes and knowing that I'm a man, I can't overcome my flesh entirely, even though I've tucked it away carefully in pinkness for Her, I can only try to think like the girl She wants to play with, without Her training I'll always think like a boy, maybe simulate femininity to some degree, and even with Her help there are always going to be biological and deeply conditioned facets that remain male.

I don't think I'm the only boy that thinks that way, but I must admit I also wonder sometimes how I'm going to find someone who isn't a beginner, and whether I ought not to stop looking (and taking up Ladies' time) and just consign myself to playing at crossdressing in my closet.

(in reply to MistressRouge)

RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 7:45:15 PM

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PS - I've always seen a parallel between feminization and bondage - the slave must allow you to bind them, and while the binding may be fun, presumably the pleasure is the complete and free access to the body that brings; to me feminization is part physical and part mental access.

(in reply to plaything)

RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 8:07:05 PM

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as a long time sub thats unowned and has been with Mistress'es in the past i was always up front to them that i did and do have a love of wearing panties and silky thigns i do not however seek too be full female but dose enjoy the play aspect of it all and like ,many others> Panty wearing led me into D/s, bondage , spanking and seeking more also with the help of dvds , videos of males forced too dress as fem i think this is where the whole notion of force femming dose get locked into the minds of sub males who like or enjoy the feeling of nylon panties of bras and slips . Guess you could one thing leds to another???????

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/1/2007 10:12:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwearpanties

as a long time sub thats unowned and has been with Mistress'es in the past i was always up front to them that i did and do have a love of wearing panties and silky thigns i do not however seek too be full female but dose enjoy the play aspect of it all and like ,many others> Panty wearing led me into D/s, bondage , spanking and seeking more also with the help of dvds , videos of males forced too dress as fem i think this is where the whole notion of force femming dose get locked into the minds of sub males who like or enjoy the feeling of nylon panties of bras and slips . Guess you could one thing leds to another???????

My slave has always worn panties. Nothing frilly. very tailored and simple but silky. It was the feel he (and I) enjoy. He never had the urge to dress en fem.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 12:39:12 AM

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That there ought to be groups supportive of folks who are into sissification I agree, but I don't want to say they don't belong within BDSM since it qualifies as an alternative thing to me. I don't fit terribly well in BDSM either, compared to heavy public players, so am hesitant to say who does and who doesn't based on this specific kink. M

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 2:51:19 AM

Sunao

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I'm currently just CD at the moment and when I move I plan on transitioning to TG and hopefully Post-op TG. I can understand why some dommes might not like it because it gets rid of an aspect in BDSM. But thats why I'm open about my desire to be a woman. If the Domme doesn't like it then she can leave me be. I'm sure this sounds very unsubby and I appologize if it does. Everyone has the choice of who they want to be with.

< Message edited by Sunao -- 11/2/2007 2:52:13 AM >

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 5:33:05 AM

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I think BDSM is a melting pot for just about every sexual deviant out there. Do you like shoving herring up your ass? Go to the BDSM corner with the rest of the deviants, surely someone there will share your kink. Personally, I do not mind CD at all, my own sub does it and I actually find it sexy. The man has the longest most sexiest legs in thigh hi's I've ever seen

But that is just how I feel about it and I know that not everyone feels this way.

There are CD groups out there and perhaps those may be a better fit for some that are not into BDSM. However those that ARE into BDSM, where do these men go to find potential partners? The answer I came up with is online forums such as this one, BDSM clubs and munches. I know not everyone will accept them, but hell in the BDSM community I've noticed people do not accept a lot of things, some think that Female Dominance is just a myth

. So if we close our minds and doors to people who are into CD and BDSM, who else will we turn away? Besides who are they hurting? No one, in fact it is usually them that ends up being hurt in someway.

~Lashra

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 6:29:19 AM

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Normal lurker here, but I feel the need to drop a note on this post as a reminder that there are ways to incorperate "his kink" of crossdressing into BDSM play if he is coming to the table with it... Many men in my whom I have had the pleasure of playing with real time have enjoyed this particular kink but are either very secretive and discret about it (they only dress in a "safe environment with those whom they trust) or are very comfortable with it and want to be seen as their female persona at times.
For the secretive type, I send them out into their vanilla world in panties and thigh highs under their vanilla clothing...or with just a touch of blush. Honestly, it isn't normally even noticed by anyone but it is enough to get their mind into it and get that twinge of uncomfortableness that I might be looking for. For the ones that have wanted to be seen as their inner woman, I simply underess them. I might only allow and demand makeup, thigh highs and bra (dangly bits are hanging out or buldging if I have allowed panties to deny that he is a woman) when we have kink friendly guests over. Heck, one boy from my past was truly pushed just by going into a real time store to buy his own panties instead of online (his reaction and near full blown anxiety attack was adorable, and yes I did save him at the cashier when he looked like he was about to hyperventilate!). These are just a few examples of what can be done to disarm and play...
Isn't the overall goal of forced sissification either humilation, amusement, or undoubted submission? Both of these goals can still be met with the sissified boys by knowing a bit about what makes them tick and using a bit of imagination. To say otherwise is also to deny any other kink that a submissive might have a healthy interest in and tons of experience for. (Why perform CBT on a sub who enjoys it and will happily handle anything you can dish out? Why use a strap on sub who can take the largest of dildos anally? I could go on but I would hope that you would see a where I am going with this.)
Alright, back to lurking!

(in reply to Lashra)

RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 8:54:09 AM

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to naughty:

Everything you say is true. Where the problem I find is that when they are dressed up.. in a BDSM situation and the dominant humiliates or whips or whatever and the guy REALLY isn't in to it but is just putting up with it so he is someplace where he can be seen but not in the way he wants. This is the heart breaker for me. This is why I suggest more specialized groups be formed for this proclivity. I don't call it a fetish when the mindset is different. To use a BDSM venue just makes it worse for them. Yes, I've played with them but only because I felt sorry for the misplaced individual, not because I saw them as THEY hope to be seen and appreciated. But then that only reinforced a place for this type to get some kind attention, so I stopped. Nothing is worse than false hope.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 9:43:59 AM

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The fact that lotusong is a FEMDOM is utterly besides the point. If she were a femsub, she'd still hate CDs.

Vulnerable minorty groups: gays, TVs, TSs, and CDs really don't need anyone to explain why they don't "fit in" and are not liked, wanted, desired, or valued. They know all the reasons already. The just don't need anyone elevating their dislike into some kind of larger, legitimate social creed.

Wanting to push CDs out of BDSM is a brightline case of personal bigotry.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/2/2007 9:52:54 AM >

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 9:47:29 AM

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Forced feminization has two parts. Force and feminization.

In general, there's no reason a submissive has to be suffering for an act to be BDSM in general. Take your run of the mill painslut (an interesting thought in and of itself). They are hurt, but enjoy it. Take fluffly activities, like puppy/kitten/pony play. It's usually enjoyed by both parties. One would be hard pressed to find someone saying those are not in the BDSM category.

I do see what you're saying, though, in that the attracting aspect of forced feminization is not to enjoy the moment, but that a method to establish dominance.

I don't have much experience with forced feminization, but I perceive it to be a lot like humiliation. The reason I like humiliation and objectification is not My Pet's enjoyment of the task. It's the feeling of dominance. She's learned to like these roles, finding pleasure in knowing she is protected, as all my things are. She feels a sense of submission, something to be proud of, and some acts are just plain fun.

Assuming a man is being forced to dress up, what pleasures could he be getting from the event? The same swelling submission, perhaps a taste of humiliation, which may be liked...

The lines of who is truly in charge and what acts benefit which parties are flexible and curvy.

To Lotus's last statement, about "putting up with it", I'd prefer My Pet finding some pleasure in the act as opposed to doing it solely for me. That selflessness leaves me feeling sefish. That said, I am kind of a softy in regards to my method of ownership. =)

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 3:36:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The fact that lotusong is a FEMDOM is utterly besides the point. If she were a femsub, she'd still hate CDs.

Vulnerable minorty groups: gays, TVs, TSs, and CDs really don't need anyone to explain why they don't "fit in" and are not liked, wanted, desired, or valued. They know all the reasons already. The just don't need anyone elevating their dislike into some kind of larger, legitimate social creed.

Wanting to push CDs out of BDSM is a brightline case of personal bigotry.

Again.. Some CDers ARE into BDSM.. NOT all BDSMers are into to cross dressers, nor are they required to be. So, why slather your hate around at every opportunity when this subject comes up. If CD'ers are in to the lifestyle, then it makes sense, but just to use it as a place to go to dress up and then be all upset because few are all agog about him...just makes things awkward.

The chip on your shoulder doesn't endear you to me and defeats your message. If this makes me a bigot.. then I'm a bigot. I'm trying to hold a discussion so those that wonder what the problem is can get different veiwpoints. Is there some reason why CDer's don't start more of their own groups or is it just more fun to interlope on others efforts in unrelated activities and then get upset?

A bit of background on me.. I started a group just for Heterosexual Dommes and their het male subs. We started the group because of negative experiences with the local pansexual group. We took the initiative to be out on our own.

It was doing well. Then we were getting attacked because we didn't have an open door policy for everything else.

So I invited those interested to join. What did I get? One was a lesbian couple that complained that there wasn't anything there for THEM. I invited them to share what experiences were unique to their situation. Talk about a deer in the headlights look. Then femsubs wanted to join to learn so they could switch. More times than not, they ended up asking the male submissives they hooked up with to Dom THEM and then those guys would look at me and say.. "hey-wasn't this supposed to be a Domme group where we could find REAL dommes?". I had to agree and ask the subs fems to leave. I'm agreeable like that. The boys came first. They were the backbone of the group.

Some Doms even wanted to join to see what they could see,. I put my foot down. OHHHHHHH that just made me a target for any slur or insult that could be done. So you will have to work quite a bit harder than "bigot" for me. I've paid my dues and done my time. I take care of my own.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 11/2/2007 3:39:59 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 7:20:29 PM

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Crossdressing (of which sissification is one form) is driven by a different combination of motivations for different people: an admiration or fetish for female appearance and attire (to feel sexy and sensual), to be emasculated or to escape the male identity, incongruence between the sex (as defined by anatomy) and gender (as defined by that individual's psychological make up), a form of submission through appearance play, more. To say that T-persons (a term that includes tranvestites, transgenders, transexuals) who feel the need should have their own support group in addition to existing BDSM support groups is fair enough. To suggest that they should have their own support group instead of coming to existing BDSM support groups does not resonate with me--many of them do have an interest in BDSM.

I do not know how many crossdressers enter BDSM for the opportunity to crossdress and endure unwanted beatings and the like for this opportunity. Crossdressers whom I have met through the BDSM scene enjoy BDSM as well. If all a person wanted to do was crossdress without engaging in BDSM, simply showing up to munches and parties of pansexual groups without engaging in SM would provide that opportunity. Other venues like goth clubs also allow such opportunities. I expect drag queen events would provide another opportunity to crossdress without engaging in SM. I wager that the number of people who suffer unwanted SM in order to enjoy only crossdressing is small.

The group discussion at the last meeting of our local TNG group focused on what we could do to have greater involvement in the community. One idea that has sprung from this meeting is to host a TG night. This idea was inspired due to appreciation for a member (who was not at that meeting) who is TG, a domme who loves TGs, and a female sub who is close to someone who is a TG. Not all BDSMers are into crossdressers but many are, or many offer acceptance or, at least, tolerance.

Because there are different motivations for feminization, it does not have to be forced (as in done to someone where it is loathed and unwanted). I have close friends who are a femdom couple and the domme enjoys crossdressing her husband who is equally enthusiastic about it.

Just because a submissive wants an activity that reflects submission does not by default make that activity the antithesis of submission. Many activities that I like as a submissive I like simply and only because they represent submission--that the activity symbolizes submission is why I like it and it becomes a ritual of sorts to observe the roles. Thus, I think if a submissive wants forced feminization, that he wants it does not remove all value. I recognize that there are dommes who feel differently.

What I appreciate about groups based on alternative sexuality is that we all share a bond of sorts--we each have a sexuality that faces disapproval from the mainstream society. Thus, I feel a bond or, all other things equal, comparatively (in comparison to vanilla crowds) more comfortable to express my sexuality amongst swingers, homosexuals, polys, more. Similarly, I am likely more accepting of such persons than is the average vanilla guy because I too have an alternative sexuality. If a crossdresser who had no interest in BDSM came to a munch of our local pansexual group, it would not bother me. The last two weekends each had sex positive events hosted by two adult boutiques in Austin. Each had a mix of people: swingers, BDSMers, etc. I appreciated that while people drank different brands of tea, we could express and dress as we wanted at that event and enjoy our respective teas.

There. I discussed it ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 11/2/2007 7:24:11 PM >

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 8:11:24 PM

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I stand up to you b/c I think you are ignorant and judgmental. (Sorry, I can't pull any punches here.)

If you want to call it hate, be my guest.

Your generalizations are off the mark. Your comprehension of CDs is limited.

You'd be a lot more honest if you'd just say, "I'm turned off by CDs." Why masquarade with a lead of, "The reason this is a turn off for SOME mistresses....."

I'm curious, how many CDs have ever written to you congratulating you for your posts and understanding of their situation?

How friendly do you think my responses would be if I started a thread, "Fat Ladies: The reason this is a turn off for some men is....." Next, imagine the irony if I called a responder to me in such a thread "hateful."

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/2/2007 8:12:19 PM >

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 8:38:51 PM

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Crossdressing is a very common fetish, and as a fetish, it gets dumped into the BDSM corner. I am not sure it's accurate to say that sissies and sissy maids are a proper subset of CD's, and I certainly don't think that fetish crossdressing has anything to do with the TG community. T's are dressing as part of their transition to female life (or male life) so for them it is appropriate, not fetishy.

I am one that feels that "forced fem" as a humiliation is degrading to women. I am proud to be female, and what does it say if I put femme trappings on a male to make him feel a less-than? Shouldn't he feel privileged to dress as a sister? YMMV. I adore drag queens, and as for boys wearing panties, it's not a big deal to me one way or the other. My former slave wore my panties all the time, and since he didn't usually wear underwear, it was a double reminder of me.

When it comes to BDSM, I have something of a problem with how to approach the play. Am I playing with a male, or a female? How important is the costume to the whole affair? I prefer my playmates naked---a naked crossdresser is just himself. Or is he?
Obviously that's an issue that can be overcome by plenty of negotiation, but I think it's a potential minefield, too.

I think there is room in the scene for everyone. I do support the idea of select-interest play spaces and groups (Michigan Club Fem, for one) so that those into maiding, food play, pony play, etc can enjoy their specific favorite thing. These SIG's should be an enhancement of an open scene---how would any of us get to know what else is out there if it wasn't available for us to see? How many CD's come to events not dressed, that would be encouraged by the sight of others that are?

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