Rover
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Joined: 6/28/2004
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ORIGINAL: Stephann
Sure. People define what things mean within their relationships. Having said that, if a couple with the woman on her knees wearing a collar, and her man holds the leash, proclaim that dominant really means submissive, and submissive really means dominant, I'm not going to agree that their definition holds water. The "Dominant because you say so" discussion is a good example. And yes, I'll admit I might be acting a little stodgy about it.
Your statement that people define what things mean in their own relationships pretty much says it all. And we both can be a bit stodgy. :)
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I can only define things for myself. Defining is a little different from pointing out that 'this is the generally accepted meaning.'
But it was you who used the term "defined" as in...
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Safewords (obviously to me) have a specific purpose as they're defined
So the "definition" is either one that you define strictly for yourself (in which case it has no relevance to anyone else), or it's a definition that applies to the entirety of BDSM (which is what you imply). That fact that something has a "generally accepted meaning" speaks only to what is common, not what is relevant to individuals in unique relationships. Relationships are not limited to "common" elements... if they were, "we" would be vanilla (the more common relationship dynamic).
If you were simply pointing out the "common" meaning for safewords, I would not disagree. Though I would probably add that there are other meanings as well, and while they may be less common, they are equally valid within the relationships that utilize them (ie: safewords may usurp your authority, but they do not usurp every Top's/Dominant's authority).
Another interesting thread might then begin, as to how a simple word can cause some (many?) Dominants to feel that their authority has been diminished.
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Common usage becomes the key word for me. Fag, in common usage in the US, means homosexual. In the UK, it commonly means a cigarette.
So what is the common meaning for slave and submissive that we should all adhere to? You've read as many baseless and endless threads on the topic as I have. Are we reduced to what is common? Even if it does not work for us in our relationship dynamic? You may subscribe to that theory, and feel comfortable as one of the flock answerable to whomever tends the flock. I tend to myself, and my girl and eschew the flock.
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Sure it is. Safewords are a type of communication. Not all communication is a safeword.
On that we are agreed. So how is it that you can disagree with those who use safewords as a communication tool, rather than as a control tool? Or do you wish to redefine them yet again?
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My understanding of safewords suggests it's not the same thing. If someone came to the boards, saying she was playing with her dominant, she safeworded, and he didn't stop the scene, we'd have a shriekfest of what a horrible dominant he was. By the way, my name's Stephan (Stephan on the other side was taken by a Nigerian.)
So you'd be assuming what a safeword means in that relationship, meaning that you may or may not be correct. Only the folks in the relationship know what they agreed a safeword would mean, and how it could be used. Ignorant folks often have shriek fests until they become better informed. And in this instance, they should have simply asked what that safeword means in their relationship.
And sorry about the name, Stephan. I was just using what was written at the top of your profile.
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I disagree. What we do in public often reflects who and what we are in private. How safewords are taught in public, often mirror what is expected in private.
You're hung up on what is common again. If you wish to devolve us all to become carbon copies of one another (or what Joseph Bean condemns as "immitative" of one another) then that's a valid opinion. Just not one I share.
Public venues have a great many common rules that don't pertain to what people do in private. Public venues most often do not allow exposed genitalia, or penetration. And believe it or not, people do privately expose their genitalia and engage in penetration. Public vanues most often do not allow water sports or scat play. And believe it or not, people do privately engage in both.
You're making an enormous mistake equating what is common in public venues with some sort of universality in private. Heck, it may not even be common in private (as some of the examples provided demonstrate) much less universal.
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Again, I'm not saying capable, intelligent, consenting adults shouldn't use safewords in any way they desire; I'm simply pointing out that lack of using the proscribed set of safewords in the manner commonly taught isn't 'wrong' either.
Amen, brother. And that's the long and the short of it. Why go any further? Why all the fuss about what is common and what isn't? Why all the fuss about definitions? In one breath you say this is all you want to point out, and in the next breath you go on to say something quite a bit different (and far reaching).
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And I think this is the crux of the matter; you could certainly say that, from your perspective, I use safewords. I don't call them that, I just call it communication. I think our community has a very specific expectation of what safewords mean, and I don't believe what I do falls under that. So it would seem you and I are debating semantics.
You've already said that safewords are communication. So call it whatever you like. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweetly.
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It's always healthy for adults to have rules to play by in public. Having said that, my rules do still apply to me and mine; as I tried to illustrate, I don't play with people who cling to safewords. Thus, it's never been a conflict of interest.
And I certainly would not suggest that you do anything other than what works for you.
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Again, what we do in public often is taught to be held as what 'should' be done in private. I believe that's where discussions like this are useful to illustrate that there are, indeed, more than the 'one true way.'
I don't know too many folks who would advocate that rules developed for public venues, that by necessity must accomodate the "rights" of those who are not active participants in the scene, "should" be adhered to privately. Why would anyone accomodate the needs or rights of the public when engaged in private play? And the common public useage of safewords is strictly for accomodation of the communication needs of the host and their delegates (ie: DM's).
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Between me and mine, there isn't a problem; it's just an illustration of a different approach. I don't believe my authority would be challenged by a code word; I believe that the weight of the 'code' to be disproportionate to it's purpose. I'd feel like we're using a hammer to kill a fly. I won't judge you poorly if I feel you're using a hammer to kill a fly; it's your house, your tools, and your fly to address any way you wish.
If there is no challenge to your authority by use of a "code word", then there is no hammer. It does not exist.
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Having said this, why do you feel you need "Please stop" to become "Rumplestisken" when "My hands are numb" would suffice.
Personally, I don't. But "please stop" isn't very informative during a scene that mimicks nonconsent (like a rape scene). That's why safewords were developed.... to communicate during scenes in which words with "common meanings" (like "please, stop") can cause confusion, and are not clear forms of communication. Safewords were not developed in order to give control to a bottom/submissive/slave... they were developed to provide clear communication during scenes that mimick nonconsent.
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If my girl says "please stop" I'll ask why. I'd much rather know why, than receive an arbitrary "I'm done" from her.
Seems reasonable. Same as I might do if my girl says "Red" or whatever else we might agree upon.
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For me, "I'm done" suggests that she has made the choice to terminate our activity; this is exactly the sort of dynamic that doesn't work in our relationship.
Doesn't work in my relationship dynamic either. Again, we're on the same page. But what do you when your girl says "Please, stop... No, no, no!!!" during a rape scene? Stopping to ask what she means by that may ruin her headspace. Or yours. Or both. Or maybe you could guess what it means and hope that you're right. I dunno.... whatever works for you. Though I might suggest that a safeword could be helpful.
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No problem. The worlds hungry aren't going to be fed by safewords; the conversation here, in the grand scheme of things, is barely a ripple in the ocean.
Stephan
So true. Yet, as a friend of mine is fond of saying... lifestylers will debate bellybutton lint. It's in our blood. :)
John
_____________________________
"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."
Sri da Avabhas
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RE: What are words for? - 
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