quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden

quote:

First of all, your breathing can be an exceptionally inaccurate method of determining what is happening (unless you cease breathing, which is almost universally regarded as a problem).

Thanks for the two smart arse comments I received from two other posters besides yourself John, being genuinely knew to the scene and still learning many things, it's great to have responses that are belittling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: briska

Direct response to the OP-

"No, Seriously - that hurts!" usually. More often than not, Sir will talk to me in japanese during a scene to constantly make sure I'm okay, but every once in a while I throw this one out there. ;)

Also, non-verbally a big RED is when i start to fall into my bonds - putting all my weight on the rope/cuffs rather than standing on my own. It's kind of like my body saying "Ok, I'm in subspace now, and my knees just buckled so you should probably take me down..." Of course, Sir and I have been together for a couple of years now, so (yes, roll your eyes if you must) He can see and has taken me down/stopped playing when this happens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Ja, sounds like a war of opinions.  Because there is no one 'right' way to go about safewords, and it does illustrate two polarized camps within the BDSM community, it comes up over and over.  Sort of like abortion rights on a political message board.

As I've said before, I don't play with safewords.  It isn't because I don't care about who I'm playing with.  It's because I expect them to communicate with me within the scene.  "Ow, that hurts" or "Please Master, no more" are perfectly acceptable to me in a scene.  I don't seen scenes or plays as performances like I would as an actor in a play; what is happening is real, and takes place in a real headspace.  It isn't fantasy for me. 

I won't list the reasons I don't use safewords; I've done it a few times in the past, but to me it does just boil down to trust.  You need to trust the person you are playing with, and you trust yourself.  Safewords don't replace trust, and only have value when trust has been established.

Stephan

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: briska

Direct response to the OP-

"No, Seriously - that hurts!" usually. More often than not, Sir will talk to me in japanese during a scene to constantly make sure I'm okay, but every once in a while I throw this one out there. ;)

Also, non-verbally a big RED is when i start to fall into my bonds - putting all my weight on the rope/cuffs rather than standing on my own. It's kind of like my body saying "Ok, I'm in subspace now, and my knees just buckled so you should probably take me down..." Of course, Sir and I have been together for a couple of years now, so (yes, roll your eyes if you must) He can see and has taken me down/stopped playing when this happens.

finger-snapping, items...my point is obviously in this situation providing that information is somewhat imperitive, does that somehow magically transform the sub into a top?  Of course not, it keeps you both safe and out of prison

quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden

quote:

First of all, your breathing can be an exceptionally inaccurate method of determining what is happening (unless you cease breathing, which is almost universally regarded as a problem).

Thanks for the two smart arse comments I received from two other posters besides yourself John, being genuinely knew to the scene and still learning many things, it's great to have responses that are belittling.

I believe that the initial question I responded to said "you realize your breath is restricted to the point that you are unable to breathe at all".  So I made the assumption that I had stopped breathing, which I would assume any Top would be able to spot?  Is there a Top reading that that would not notice their bottom had stopped breathing entirely?  I am not talking about being able to trust my Top to monitor slight fluctations, I am talking about being able to trust a Top to spot that I had STOPPED BREATHING.

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

noooo he said the "a" word!

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Hey if that kid wants to come back and toss some more insults he can feel free to.  I might even throw some back this time 

quote:

ORIGINAL: briska

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: briska

Direct response to the OP-

"No, Seriously - that hurts!" usually. More often than not, Sir will talk to me in japanese during a scene to constantly make sure I'm okay, but every once in a while I throw this one out there. ;)

Also, non-verbally a big RED is when i start to fall into my bonds - putting all my weight on the rope/cuffs rather than standing on my own. It's kind of like my body saying "Ok, I'm in subspace now, and my knees just buckled so you should probably take me down..." Of course, Sir and I have been together for a couple of years now, so (yes, roll your eyes if you must) He can see and has taken me down/stopped playing when this happens.

finger-snapping, items...my point is obviously in this situation providing that information is somewhat imperitive, does that somehow magically transform the sub into a top?  Of course not, it keeps you both safe and out of prison

I never said I had any qualms about being transformed to a top.  I'm just saying that's how he knows when I'm not speaking.  If i can't stand, how can I snap my fingers? Also, I can drop an item just by being hit a certain way, but that doesn't mean I need Him to stop playing with me.

quote:

Welcome to the World of XoXo, where common sense and logic and everything operates according to the rules and definitions that she is making up as she goes along with no regard to any possible parameters besides her own.

quote:

I can't even come up with an argument anymore because you have twisted yourself up so much that I have no idea what your argument is anymore.

quote:

Hey, your wounded ego and stubborneness aren't my problem.

quote:

At this point, this amounts to "I don't want to use safewords because I don't like them!" since there isn't a valid argument.

quote:

Not listening or refusing to accept logic will cause these kinds of thoughts.

quote:


Its easy to be right with your beliefs in this discussion if you make up the rules, but the rules you are making up aren't realistic.

quote:


You can believe whatever you want to. You can believe there is a moon made of green cheese. It still doesn't change the fact that your conjecture (or "beliefs") is/are flawed.

quote:

In the word according to xoxi where tops are controlled by the magical power of the bottom's safeword, then we are all, in fact, enslaved and submissive to the magical power of the stop sign we confront everyday.

quote:

Personally, if I had this narrow minded outlook that was being presented here, I would be annoyed at having to live under the constant tyranny of an inanimate road sign.

I've immensely enjoyed reading this discussion...but come on....

11 pages of watching you and Merc try and restrain this discussion to the narrow minded parameters of your own creations will exhaust anyone's patience.

Your just wrong.

Give it up.

Its pathetic at this point.

That's five whole minutes of my life I won't get back now   Fortunately my hair is drying and I've already checked my LJ so there's not much else to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Your more than welcome to hold any beliefs you want. However, if you are going to come here and make absolute statements about things like "Safewords are commands and give control to the submissive" using silly contradictery logic that is completely inconsistent when applied beyond the narrow parameters you keep adamanently holding to out of sheer stubborness and insecurity of being at fault, well...hey...I'm going to make you look silly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

go fuck yourself. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I have no problem with people using safewords.  I've used them in the past.  I think they can be incredibly useful tools.  That doesn't change the fact that it's a command

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

You really didn't read what I said, did you?

I didn't say red=stop. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Maybe.  But my point wasn't that red=stop, my point was that red=stop=a command.  And I genuinely feel that if you replace 'stop' with 'let me tell you this now' it's still a command....the middle part is just a synonymous explanation of the term "red" - my premise could basically be construed as IF red=a command the Master must obey, THEN it means the Master's power is not absolute.  So you might be arguing against red=stop with Merc, but with me, you're arguing against red=a command.   I know that if you ordered your partner to use a safeword you wouldn't feel it was a command and I appreciate that viewpoint as valid. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Like I told Archer, you have every right not to share my viewpoint, but there's no reason to say it's not valid.  Your relationship is very different from my own and I respect that difference.  I was writing about my ideas, my relationship, and how I view safewords. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

You still constantly claim that A SAFEWORD IS UNIVERSALLY A COMMAND.

Yup.  Cuz that's what I believe.  In fact I'll go one step further and say that if a safeword is agreed to, it is not only a command but a command that must be followed if the Top has any sense of honor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

And as long as we have come to the agreement that your arguments against safe limits, while perfectly fine f0r your style, have no actual validity for anyone else who choose to use safewords, then thank you.

Change that to "may or may not have actual validity for anyone else who choose to use safewords, based on that person's own values and ideas" then we'll agree.

I kinda like words to mean specifically what they mean and I'm sure as fuck not going to agree that my ideas are ONLY valid for me.  They're valid for anyone who subscribes to them.  Just like yours are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Okay. You win. My argument and motivations amount to squat in a big picture sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

But as far as the small picture goes, in that one little relationship between two people out of six billion in the world, my motivations mean quite a bit.  And really, that's all I care about...and all I was trying to say from the beginning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
The only difference is that you're saying I'm wrong and invalid, while I'm saying some people might see it as a command, other people might see it as not a command.  So if anyone's saying there's only one way to do things, it's certainly not me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I just specified quite a few times that I was referring to safewords that must be followed according to the paradigm of the relationship.  If it doesn't apply, let it fly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

You still constantly claim that A SAFEWORD IS UNIVERSALLY A COMMAND.

Yup

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi


Okay I'm going to give you a chance to actually use logic to prove me wrong rather than just snarky comments.  This is the simplified version of my argument:

1. From this point forward when I use the term 'safeword' I define it as a word that the top and bottom have agreed means a certain thing, and when said by the bottom, proscribes a particular course of action. (Emphasis added.) Wrong. Don't even need to move to the rest because this is not correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi


Okay I'm going to give you a chance to actually use logic to prove me wrong rather than just snarky comments.  This is the simplified version of my argument:

1. From this point forward when I use the term 'safeword' I define it as a word that the top and bottom have agreed means a certain thing, and when said by the bottom, proscribes a particular course of action. (Emphasis added.) Wrong. Don't even need to move to the rest because this is not correct.

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quote:

At this point, all your arguments have pretty much been proven invalid through the course of logical discussion and while might provide valid reason for your own little way in your own little Idaho, they hold exactly zero air or substance on the mantle of reality.

quote:

11 pages of watching you and Merc try and restrain this discussion to the narrow minded parameters of your own creations will exhaust anyone's patience.

quote:

A safe word is a wonderful tool to have. When used with a partner who is honest, and shows a willingness to help you evolve. If you are going to play with someone for the first time; HAVE A SAFE WORD that will stop play if things become too intense for you.
 
Over time your mutual understanding of a safe-word may evolve to become a source of information requiring immediate attention, rather than something that stops play.  Make sure that you both have the same understanding of what a safe-word means in your relationship or with your play partners.
 
However; you must also realize that not everyone is going to care about what you want. Not everyone is honest, safe, and wants to keep you safe. In these cases, a safe word will mean NOTHING because they will continue no matter what you say, how you act, if you are injured, hurt…etc. That is why it is important that you only play with someone WHO YOU KNOW AND TRUST with your life.
 
Now, for some, playing in a dungeon or at a play party with others present, it might not be that important that you get to know the person because there are others present. However, if you plan to be alone with someone… remember that you are placing your own life in the hands of this person.

quote:

One thing you should keep in mind - it works for her, while in a relationship; something you seek to have someday. The use of safe-words and her Master's believe in their inappropriateness is between her and him. Having that position myself, I don't consider you the ultimate authority on its validity. Besides, its valid for them, for me, and while I'm at it. anyone who makes a decision to submit to me.

I'll stipulate that, having never met xoxi or her Master, she could be on-line only, never been with her Master in real time, and thinks a flogger requires batteries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Well since I have nothing better to do....

Here you insinuated that I live in my own world and have neither common sense nor logic:

quote:

Welcome to the World of XoXo, where common sense and logic and everything operates according to the rules and definitions that she is making up as she goes along with no regard to any possible parameters besides her own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
Here you claimed that when I said "they are equally a command" meant "they are both a command" that I had twisted my argument. Not quite sure how you got to that point, but you did.

quote:

I can't even come up with an argument anymore because you have twisted yourself up so much that I have no idea what your argument is anymore.

.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
Here you assert that by continuing to defend my beliefs as valid rather than accept others putting words in my mouth I'm doing so simply out of stubbornness and ego:

quote:

Hey, your wounded ego and stubborneness aren't my problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
Here you claim my beliefs are invalid:

quote:

At this point, this amounts to "I don't want to use safewords because I don't like them!" since there isn't a valid argument.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
Here once again you say I'm illogical:

quote:

Not listening or refusing to accept logic will cause these kinds of thoughts.

quote:


Here you say that the only reason I believe what I believe is because I made up unrealistic rules:

quote:


Its easy to be right with your beliefs in this discussion if you make up the rules, but the rules you are making up aren't realistic.

quote:


Here you compare my defending my own opinion to claiming that an incorrect fact that can be objectively proven is correct:

quote:


You can believe whatever you want to. You can believe there is a moon made of green cheese. It still doesn't change the fact that your conjecture (or "beliefs") is/are flawed.

Are you actually reading anything I am writing or just putting words in my mouth?

I'm pretty sure what I said was just because you beleive in something doesnt mean the logic isnt flawed.

Scientology is a good example of this.

quote:


Here you once again ascribe some sort of ridiculous illogical view to me that I never once claimed to have:

quote:

In the word according to xoxi where tops are controlled by the magical power of the bottom's safeword, then we are all, in fact, enslaved and submissive to the magical power of the stop sign we confront everyday.

I'm getting tired. How about you explain to me how this one is a personal insult as opposed to just a strawman argument I made to communicate how silly I am finding the viewpoint?

quote:


Although I suppose the only direct 'insults' by the strict definition of the term (as you seem the type who will deny the fact that you were being rude simply because there were no direct insults) were in your very first post to me when you called me narrow minded and said that defending my beliefs was pathetic:

quote:

Personally, if I had this narrow minded outlook that was being presented here, I would be annoyed at having to live under the constant tyranny of an inanimate road sign.

I've immensely enjoyed reading this discussion...but come on....

11 pages of watching you and Merc try and restrain this discussion to the narrow minded parameters of your own creations will exhaust anyone's patience.

Your just wrong.

Give it up.

Its pathetic at this point.

A direct insult would have been "You are narrowminded".

Perhaps the direct insult is where I said you were wrong? Does a disagreement qualify as an insult to you?

quote:


That's five whole minutes of my life I won't get back now   Fortunately my hair is drying and I've already checked my LJ so there's not much else to do.

Yeah...what a waste.




_____________________________

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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to xoxi)

quote:


If a safeword doesn't proscribe a particular course of action then what does it do?

quote:

You can say that it's a signal - but I would say it's still a signal that must be responded to.

quote:

If it's a signal that can be responded to or ignored at the top's whim, I would argue it isn't very useful. 

quote:

If the bottom says 'red' to signal "I have information" and the top replies "yeah, so? Keep your information to yourself, I don't want to hear it" then what good does it do?  How is that even a safeword?