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RE: Safe words - 11/16/2007 2:02:06 PM

Tjudd

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Another user of the stop light code.

I have found this the easiest code to remember for both of us. Plus by the edition of green, you can discover if you can push something new a bit faster.

< Message edited by Tjudd -- 11/16/2007 2:05:06 PM >

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: What are words for? - 11/16/2007 2:05:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

My hang up, isn't with the codeword, mind you, or 'Help I'm in danger.' My hang up, is that I expect to retain authority over whether danger actually exists or not. Ironically, I usually err on the side of caution in the first place.

How does the abscense of a codeword improve your authority over whether danger actually exists or not?

I don't believe I suggested that it does. What it does do, is promote the expectation that should danger exist or not, it will be my responsibility to deal with it as I see fit. I can't 'undo' danger; I can only manage danger. Not giving my slave the codeword means if there is danger (say the dungeon catches fire) it is my responsibility to unlock her from her chains. It doesn't mean I don't pretend there is no fire.

Regards,

Stephan

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(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: What are words for? - 11/16/2007 2:06:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
And how does this differ from a safe signal (dropping a rubber ball, for instance) that causes a Top to check you out to see if you're ok (his choice as well)? Wasn't your crying simply a safe signal?

John

No, because my tears were not a signal to stop what was happening. They were just a result of a lot of emotion and my body's way of expressing my emotions. One time, i started to cry because i realized that my relationship with that man was over, even as he was "making love" to me, at the time. It was just that moment of realization and i was sad about it and i started to cry.

Another time, i started crying because i was so happy. i was with the most wonderful man and it was such a wonderful feeling that tears started to fall. i wasn't sobbing but, he knew that i was crying and he was concerned and wanted to know what i was crying about so, he took a time out to talk to me about what was going on and what was making me cry.

i have never consciously decided to cry. i'm an emotional person and my emotions come out spontaneously. i have never used my tears to manipulate a situation. i can see how someone might think that but, that's not something i do.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

For someone against safewords, this personal story provides a good argument for their usage.

I've made girls cry intentionally and in no way whatsoever where those tears a signal to stop play.

I would have gotten a "Why are you stopping?" if I had.

Direct communication and reading body language are really great tools, but my personal experiences prove to me that its subject to error in play where communication and body language are often paradoxical.

I am not so wholly arrogant or over confident of my own skills to not realize that there is quite a large possibility of error with the way I play with some girls.

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(in reply to slavegirljoy)

RE: What are words for? - 11/16/2007 2:13:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

My hang up, isn't with the codeword, mind you, or 'Help I'm in danger.' My hang up, is that I expect to retain authority over whether danger actually exists or not. Ironically, I usually err on the side of caution in the first place.

How does the abscense of a codeword improve your authority over whether danger actually exists or not?

I don't believe I suggested that it does. What it does do, is promote the expectation that should danger exist or not, it will be my responsibility to deal with it as I see fit. I can't 'undo' danger; I can only manage danger. Not giving my slave the codeword means if there is danger (say the dungeon catches fire) it is my responsibility to unlock her from her chains. It doesn't mean I don't pretend there is no fire.

Regards,

Stephan

But see...this is what I really don't get.

If you are a responsible dominant who cares about your slave, then that slave has the power to pull the plug on a scene and bring you to a stop whether she screams out "Red", "Candy", "My spleen is injured!", "I'm in danger!", "STOP! HELP ME!".

It doesnt matter what kind of communication it is. If its communicating danger and your responsible, you are going to stop and pull the plug.

Simply, removing one form of communication from the scene does absolutely nothing to change this pragmatic fact.

Dishonesty and Topping from the Bottom are seperate issues. If they are being dishonest and trying to control you, it doesn't matter whether they use "Rumplemints" or "Help! I'm in danger!". I define a safeword as a word to communicate a serious problem that needs my attention. If its not used for that, its just as dishonest and controlling as the alternate scenario of her lying directly to me about a false injury.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: What are words for? - 11/16/2007 4:13:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

You've never conceived of a scene where the top wouldn't 'just know' whether or not the bottom was in real medical distress, be it heart attack, internal injuries, or suffocation?

Given the possibilities inherent in breath play, suspension, mummification, air beds, electrical play and so forth?

That isn't just naivete.

No I said I couldnt conceive of a scene where the top would not be able to monitor the bottom's breathing, that's very different to what you said. Very different. I never mentioned being able to guess about internal injuries, or heart attack, I said breathing. Master and I have talked extensively about this thread and have played with different permutations. In every scene he would have adapted the circumstances so that he could monitor my breathing, or avoided the activity entirely. It's not total naivete. It's knowing my Top. eg He won't attempt to strangle me if the lighting is so dark that he cannot see my eyes, see the colouring on my face, see my face slacken as I start to blackout so he knows exactly where I am and when to stop. *shrug* So I guess more accurately I should have said I cannot conceive of a scene where my master would not be able to monitor my breathing...despite that clarification I still can't imagine why any Top would want to risk a scene where they wouldn't be aware of such an obvious sign of physical distress... but that's just me. Geez heart rate monitors are dirt cheap, if you want to mummify someone and chuck them in a total body bag and then suspend them in a water tank with electrified eels ....

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: What are words for? - 11/16/2007 7:51:08 PM

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quote:

The extreme examples you provided, however, are not what I'm afraid of happening. Rather, what I think is a far more realistic risk tends to walk on the more emotional side, and it's very difficult for me to expect a slave in subspace to be capable of using any manner of safeword to indicate emotional (or even physical) distress. Yet, knowing that 'red' button is there, makes it more difficult for her to simply relax into the knots or locks I put on her, and accept what is being done to her. It's the difference between a heavy S&M scene with steel cuffs with a latch release, and genuine police cuffs

As someone that is actually the one on the receiving end of whatever is being inflicted, Iwill tell you my reality of how easy it is for me to relax into play and not even think about calling out a safeword. I do not even contemplate having to safeword out of our play. I get completely lost in the moments of it. Since I am someone that has a safeword and plays, and you are not, I believe that I am probably a better judge of how deep my play is, how trusting I am, and how little thought I give to my own safety while in his hands (no offense, but I have never topped anyone before, so I am clueless about how that feels).

I am sure what you say is true for some submissives, especially those who do not know their tops well, but it is not true for me as someone in an ongoing relationship in which I am completely comfortable with his knowledge level and expertise... he knows his limits and he is exploring mine still. He is skilled at many ways to inflict pain without harming me. He has a third degree black belt, and has studied physiology, as well as pressure points... I would say that even as skilled as he is (and he is very skilled), he knows he is not perfect. In fact it is due to much of his training in self defense, martial arts, that he is well aware that even the most skilled of people fuck up...Hence he wants me to have a way to tell him that does not require lots of thinking on my part to articulate what I am going through. You can call it "communication", he calls it a safeword..

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(in reply to Stephann)

RE: What are words for? - 11/16/2007 8:15:17 PM

xoxi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I've been addressing Safewords in the classic sense; predefined signals or statements that enable the submissive to indicate that she either isn't sure she is ok (typically yellow) or that she is most definately not ok (typically red.) To say it means something else, to me, doesn't qualify as being safewords, but simply 'communication.' Safewords certainy are a type of communication, but not all communication is a safeword.

I agree 100%

Having a definition of a word is not the same as saying there is only one true way to do things.

The definition of a "top" is the person who is doing the inflicting of the SM activities. That doesn't mean the only TRUE way to do BDSM is to inflict the activities. It's equally valid to be the one on the recieving end.

But that is not a top. That is a bottom. Being a bottom isn't any less valid than being a top, but calling the actions of a bottom "topping" is certainly invalid use of the word.

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: What are words for? - 11/17/2007 2:27:32 AM

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hasnt this topic been flogged to death, no pun intended

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Safe words - 11/17/2007 2:31:29 AM

CollegeConundrum

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"OH MY GOD MOTHERFUCK SHIT"

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RE: What are words for? - 11/17/2007 7:53:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

You've never conceived of a scene where the top wouldn't 'just know' whether or not the bottom was in real medical distress, be it heart attack, internal injuries, or suffocation?

Given the possibilities inherent in breath play, suspension, mummification, air beds, electrical play and so forth?

That isn't just naivete.

No I said I couldnt conceive of a scene where the top would not be able to monitor the bottom's breathing, that's very different to what you said. Very different. I never mentioned being able to guess about internal injuries, or heart attack, I said breathing. Master and I have talked extensively about this thread and have played with different permutations. In every scene he would have adapted the circumstances so that he could monitor my breathing, or avoided the activity entirely. It's not total naivete. It's knowing my Top. eg He won't attempt to strangle me if the lighting is so dark that he cannot see my eyes, see the colouring on my face, see my face slacken as I start to blackout so he knows exactly where I am and when to stop. *shrug* So I guess more accurately I should have said I cannot conceive of a scene where my master would not be able to monitor my breathing...despite that clarification I still can't imagine why any Top would want to risk a scene where they wouldn't be aware of such an obvious sign of physical distress... but that's just me. Geez heart rate monitors are dirt cheap, if you want to mummify someone and chuck them in a total body bag and then suspend them in a water tank with electrified eels ....

In the text I quoted for my first reply, you seemed to say that safewords were unneccessary because a top would be able to monitor breathing.

I pointed out that there were other types of distress such as heart attack, where visual signs of breathing wouldnt be enough, which triggered your complaint about 'smart asses'.

Believe what you like, but you will need someone to monitor your breath if you hold it until everyone agrees with you.

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)

RE: What are words for? - 11/17/2007 9:54:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I agree 100%

Having a definition of a word is not the same as saying there is only one true way to do things.

True... BUT... words are used to communicate... so having a definition of a word that is so unique that it does little to contribute to effective communication is rather pointless. In Fact, I have found that many people that have to explain over and over again a particular issue is sometimes related to their rather isolated and unique definitions that contribute little to effective communication with others.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to xoxi)

RE: Safe words - 11/17/2007 12:36:47 PM

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Argh - I lost the reply I was making, I hope this one makes as much sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Well, based upon your reply, although "not necessarily" a submissive does sometimes have his/her safety in their own hands. And if the dominant IS relying on the bottom's safe-word, fairly common based on the posts made on this thread especially with limited experience or casual encounters, to to stop the scene; than yes once again the submissive is in control. Meaning you agree that sometimes the submissive dominates the scene by a safe-word and it may be necessary that the submissive is responsible for what is inflicted.

That's why I didn't disagree with you outright, Merc. I see understand your argument, and I agree with you to a point. I just don't think we should look at the methods of some who use the practice, and use them to judge the practice.

quote:

Again I'll pose the a simple question; in your perfect scenario and session, if the submissive says their safe word does the session stop? They aren't in danger and it hasn't gone beyond any predetermined "limit". The submissive just "isn't feeling it" and says "RED!" If the scene stops, the power, and in BDSM terms the dominance in control of the session, was in the hands of the person saying the word.

In *my* perfect scenario and session, the safeword isn't used *unless* there's danger, or at least perception of non-play-intended danger. And honestly, if I were playing with a bottom who did use it like you describe above, regardless of authority structure, I likely wouldn't play with them again. If someone doesn't belong to me, and they want play to stop, they should use plain clear English to tell me so - and we stop. If someone *does* belong to me, and they want play to stop, they'd damned well better use plain clear English to tell me so - and then I determine whether or not we stop.

quote:

However I don't understand why anyone sees this as being a display of weakness or wrong. Either safe-words have the effect you, and others who use them say they do and have the power implied, or they don't and their use is meaningless. The conclusion and result speaks to pragmatic fact.

They don't *have* power for me. They are just another communication tool.

quote:

RED = STOP - The top stops; Who dominated?

I believe that wholly depends on the situation.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Safe words - 11/17/2007 12:44:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
It should noted that have no magic words between us, but never has it been represented that no words are exchanged. she is not, and has never been prevented from speaking. I have ongoing dialog with her during any and all of our trysts. Sometimes its with the conscience beth and sometimes it's on a more intimate level with her body. she isn't stopped from noting that her nose itches. However to get me to scratch it, I may require more of beth than a disassociated word like "yellow" which would initiate the inquiry to determine what's wrong. "Master, your slave's nose itches" suffices, and what I use to scratch it, if I scratch it at all doesn't impact the mind set of either of us. Who knows, the same "yellow" can mean the pool man showed up early and is peeking in the window. But I'd rather know that with the first expression versus getting involved with a word association process. Meanwhile, I don't rely on her to maintain an ongoing evaluation over every stroke to determine whether it hurts too little, too much, or is Goldilocks perfect.

=SNIP=

She's got something wrong somewhere on her body or in her mind. Instead of expressing it, she first has to convert the feeling to a safe-word. You then hear the safe-word and have to get the specifics from her. Does the process represent the most efficient manner of communicating the issue causing distress? Having a similarly long term and involved relationship with beth, I'd much prefer eliminating the safe-word and just to addressing the cause for using one.

I agree - 99.99999% of the time.

But, as I wrote earlier (not sure what post, or what page), there was that *one* time where it didn't work. And that was when we decided having a safeword there *just* for moments like that was important to us.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Safe words - 11/17/2007 12:53:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phedre81

So, in your case, does a safe word NOT mean that the Top is immediately required to stop? Is your safe word simply a word that has been agreed upon that means "wait, I have information" that you find easier to say than a sentence, or that is more easily understood and clear than a sentence which might be misinterpreted?

Something like that, for us - yes. It's a "Wait, I'm having an emergency moment and I need to give you the complete information but can't at this very moment", but not a "stop the scene now".

(in reply to phedre81)

RE: What are words for? - 11/17/2007 1:15:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightMaiden

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Many folks utilize a rubber ball (dropped when something requires attention) or bell (rung when something requires attention) or other such method.

Oh I did not know that, thank you :) Hmmmm but I would drop the ball/bell without being in distress (I clench and open hands as part of working through pain).

When gagged, I'm supposed to say "Uh-uh" - like a vocal, but nonverbal, "no" - loudly. That means I need for him to remove the gag and then I can communicate

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)

RE: What are words for? - 11/17/2007 4:44:40 PM

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quote:

In the text I quoted for my first reply, you seemed to say that safewords were unneccessary because a top would be able to monitor breathing.

A case of not seeing the forest for the trees I guess? I said that a ball or bell would be useless in my situation as I would drop them even when everything is fine because of how I react to pain, and in the original example a gag was in place so no safe word could be used. So remove the ability to make a safeword, remove the usefullness of balls, bells, whistles and flares, and all that's left is my Tops skills of observation.

quote:

Believe what you like, but you will need someone to monitor your breath if you hold it until everyone agrees with you.

In all things there is opinion. There is no right or wrong when it comes to opinion, just that itself, your opinion. Any argument is merely one proponent trying to force their opinion on another, or pursuade them that their way of thinking is the correct one. Heh the arrogance of the human species never ceases to amaze me. I don't care if you agree with me, opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and I am sure you like yours... and I am not trying to pursuade you that my way of thinking is correct. If, however, you are going to tell me my opinion is rediculous, you should at least understand what my opinion is by reading my posts correctly.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: What are words for? - 11/17/2007 5:35:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I agree 100%

Having a definition of a word is not the same as saying there is only one true way to do things.

True... BUT... words are used to communicate... so having a definition of a word that is so unique that it does little to contribute to effective communication is rather pointless. In Fact, I have found that many people that have to explain over and over again a particular issue is sometimes related to their rather isolated and unique definitions that contribute little to effective communication with others.

Here is the thing, words mean different things in different contexts. In addition words change over time, some nuanced meanings become attached to words, whilst others are lost... so it becomes the common usage of the word that matters, not its origins

edited to add this link

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1_____ENUS249&defl=en&q=define:Safeword&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/17/2007 5:44:03 PM >

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: What are words for? - 11/20/2007 5:02:28 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

John

This is where I think we're not going to see eye to eye.

If you portray that there is only one "twue" meaning to safewords, then you're right... we won't agree. If you state that you have one meaning within the context of your relationship, and that others decide what they mean in their own relationship, then there's no problem.

quote:

As I mentioned to Julia above, I don't see different 'types' of safewords. Safewords (obviously to me) have a specific purpose as they're defined;

Defined by whom? You? Some other anonymous third party?

quote:

for the submissive to alert the dominant that she is in mental or physical distress and that either maybe (typically yellow), or certainly (typically red), she desires to suspend or terminate the session.

I agree that is a common, and stereotypical, representation of the meaning of safewords. But it is far from universal.

quote:

Any other form of communication outside of these boundaries, to me, is simply that; communication.

Communicating mental or physical distress is not communication because it's about a proscribed topic? I'm sure I don't understand the logic to this sentiment. Does it or does it not convey information? Is it or is it not communication?

quote:

My slave may beg me to end the session. I may choose to heed her request, or I might choose not to. The nature of our relationship is such that she expects to be pushed even if it is against her wishes. That may seem abusive to some, certainly. For this, assure you, I am no advocate of any 'one true way.' My perspectives are my own, a few folks might agree, and I expect the majority will not; that's no judgement call on how you or anyone else chooses to approach things.

Same thing with safewords, Stephann. Exactly the same thing. And used in exactly the same way. How could you have an issue with that?

quote:

At any rate, in the places I've played in public, yellow and red were the standards. They did, in fact, mean "check in" or "stop" respectively. To respect our hosts, I only engaged in play with people who shared my view on safewords (I rarely play with someone I do not know very well in the first place.)

Public venues are another issue entirely, Stephann. In those venues everyone must agree on the meaning of terms so that the scenes can be adequately supervised by the hosts. Your rules and meanings do not apply. My rules and meanings do not apply. Only the host's meanings and rules apply. But the host's rules and meanings do not apply beyond that public venue, and what people engage in or agree upon amongst themselves becomes a personal matter.

Similarly, hosts may prohibit certain types of play at their public venue. They may have a personal aversion to that play, or they may feel that they do not have adequate facilities for that kind of play, etc. But their prohibition for that play does not extend beyond that public venue to become a universal or community prohibition. Privately, the play that people choose to engage in becomes a matter of personal choice.

quote:

My hang up, isn't with the codeword, mind you, or 'Help I'm in danger.' My hang up, is that I expect to retain authority over whether danger actually exists or not. Ironically, I usually err on the side of caution in the first place.

You've previously stated that you will decide what to do if your bottom/submissive/slave begs to have a scene ended. And I have no issue with that. If you feel there is a certain way she can ask ("Please stop" for instance) that doesn't challenge your authority, I have no issue with that either. If you feel that there is a certain way that she can ask ("Rumplestilsken" for instance) that does challenge your authority, I have no issue with that either. But personally, I don't perceive that my authority is challenged whether she says "Please stop" or "Rumplestisken" and in both instances will decide what do do about it because that's what we've agreed upon. Why do you have a problem with that?

quote:

Again, my observations on safewords are for my own consumption. If it's not your poisen, there's certainly others.

I have no problem with this statement, if it were left at that. But it's not. So I do.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/20/2007 5:04:14 PM >

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(in reply to Stephann)

RE: What are words for? - 11/20/2007 5:07:10 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

My hang up, isn't with the codeword, mind you, or 'Help I'm in danger.' My hang up, is that I expect to retain authority over whether danger actually exists or not. Ironically, I usually err on the side of caution in the first place.

How does the abscense of a codeword improve your authority over whether danger actually exists or not?

I don't believe I suggested that it does. What it does do, is promote the expectation that should danger exist or not, it will be my responsibility to deal with it as I see fit. I can't 'undo' danger; I can only manage danger. Not giving my slave the codeword means if there is danger (say the dungeon catches fire) it is my responsibility to unlock her from her chains. It doesn't mean I don't pretend there is no fire.

Regards,

Stephan

Are you suggesting that safety is the exclusive responsibility of the Top/Dominant? I cannot fathom such an opinion, but you're free to have it.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: What are words for? - 11/20/2007 5:18:47 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

John,
Thought I address these as not being in the context of scene which was the topic at hand. If in consideration of 24/7, the position I said before is I believe beth's protecting my property including herself. I think a scene where red = stop is not comparable to running over a child, but in all those instances beth's providing information that I am under no obligation to follow. I chose to follow or not and, unlike a scene where beth bears the result of the consequence, suffer the consequences.

I'm sorry, Merc. But this is clear as mud. So outside of a scene, you consider those examples to be beth protecting your property (which may include herself), but inside the scene she's no longer protecting your property (herself)? Please explain to me how it is that "Red" (or "Stop") knows whether it is a scene or not? And how in the one instance (a scene) it demands compliance while in the other it does not?

And if this is the case in which beth saying "Red" (or "Stop") constitutes taking control in a scene, isn't it a fact that she still can take control (she is still able to say "Red" or "Stop"), but simply chooses not to? You've said that use of such terms demands/requires your obedience, so compliance is not a choice, it's a requirement. She simply has not required you to do so... yet.

quote:

I think trust is the most important thing. I trust her to provide information, I'm not required to act upon it.

My girl's use of a safeword as a communication tool affords me the same freedom. You do not define its use for me, or anything else about my relationship dynamics. And with that, any pretense that a safeword *always* results in a bottom/submissive/slave being in control goes right out the window. Unless you would care to establish a "one twue way" about the meaning and usage of safewords. Do you?

quote:

My very pointed point is if you replace that level of trust with a word, and make be dominant over the scene, you aren't safe. It's pointed to the most common usage of this tool. New people who don't know each other and who do have RED=STOP as the sole definition.

So new people, and people who do not understand all the facets of a power exchange relationship, define all relationships for you? I don't allow them to do that for me. Since when did "common" become a substitute for *all*? Are you suggesting that we *must* all practice the "immitative" BDSM that folks like Joseph Bean complain so much about? Is there no freedom in your view of BDSM for people to make it personal for themselves? Is there a "one twue way" based upon what is "common"?

quote:

If this doesn't make sense I believe it. This post has absolutely no edit, spell-check or re-read done to it. I need to go now and pick her up from the airport. Let's see - I bought the ticket and sent her to visit her ailing mom. I took her to the airport and now I'm picking her up. I am her slave?

I have no idea what you are to her. You say that you are her Master and I accept that. But you seem quick to judge for others what their relationships are, and how they hinge (critically) upon certain singular words.

quote:

Yes I am a slave, but not to her. I'm a slave to the relationship, and all the driving and picking up is all part of my service to it. What do I get out of it? Well, let's just say I'm planning a long evening and taking the day off tomorrow. My payment pennies - the value and the ROI is priceless!

Wonderful that you see it that way. I wouldn't presume to tell you otherwise. A courtesy you do not seem so willing to afford others.

Again, I ask you whether you trust beth to provide you with important information during the course of a scene, and not to portray "my nose itches" as if it were imperative? And if you do, why would it matter to you what word(s) she uses to convey that information? Are you insecure about the use of certain words?

And finally, I ask you again pointedly... what does my relationship status have to do with anything? You've referred to it twice now, and I cannot imagine what relevance it has. Please do me the favor of explaining.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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