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RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:10:05 PM

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a safe word does not automatically equate the session stopping unless the Dominant decides that the session should stop...

Whats the point of having a safe word then?

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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(in reply to chellekitty)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:29:32 PM

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Seen a few bad annalogies used here and seen a few ideas that I can't agree with on both sides of this issue, but have also seen a few things that sow promise.

Now to add my own few cents worth:

I use and advocate safewords unless you have a relationship where open plain speak will work and not change the dynamic.
I don't however teach safewords the same way many folks do.
Safewords mean
"I NEED to communicate something"
When called I go ask what the problem is. Then I make the judgement. If the relationship is casual then I'm likely to make the call to shut down more readily than if I am sceneing with someone I have a longer term relationship with. (Thus the level of control exerted is measured to the strength and level of the relationship).
Withdrawl of consent being available is a legal precedent to defend what we do as not being abuse.
Safewords were created to give that opportunity to withdraw consent.
They have certainly been infused by th community with powers they don't have and never could.
They will not all by their lonesome make anything safe.
They will not serve as a substitute for a Top having the skill to read a body for distress
They cannot undo damage already done but they can prevent additional damage.
They cannot force someone to stop the scene
They can alert educated observers to the fact that the Top has lost their flippin mind. LOL
They are not lifejackets they are the ships radio
They don't save you, they alert the authorities that you are in peril.
They are the sailor's equivolent of a MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY on the radio
Or maybe a flaregun. LOL
They are a single tool for communication amoung many possible tools for communication.

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:30:30 PM

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quote:

Well, I guess here comes another anology that you guys can ridicule:

BP,
Why bother with analogies in the first place.

Leaving the safety aspect of the discussion alone for the moment.

A Simple question; in your perfect scenario and session, if the submissive says their safe word does the session stop? If it does, the power, and in BDSM terms the dominance in control of the session, was in the hands of the person saying the word.

It doesn't matter to me what you label either participant. In regards to power and authority you either have it or you don't. A person having to stop at the mention of the word does not have that power and/or dominance. The person who makes it stop does.

Use any boat, car, train, plane, or donkey cart analogy you'd like but any other conclusion can only be reached from a rationalized position.

However I don't understand why anyone sees this as being a display of weakness or wrong. Either safe-words have the effect you, and others who use them say they do and have the power implied, or they don't and their use is meaningless. The conclusion and result speaks to pragmatic fact.

RED = STOP The top stops. Who dominated?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/6/2007 3:32:51 PM >

(in reply to bipolarber)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:31:22 PM

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missturbation,

The point is you have a way of communicating that something's going wrong... and you assign the safeword as being something that wouldn't normally come up in a scene so that there is no misunderstanding. (This is why "Oh, God!" and "Stop you Evil Genius!" or "No." are generally shied away from for use as safewords, of course. Some people like to say those things during a scene. It can be a part of the emotional release.)

I guess this is what's really confusing me about this thread: it's like several of you are saying you don't want to have a way of signalling an emergency. (Which to me is about as sensible as installing a smoke detector, and then not putting the batteries in it.)

But, to each their own...

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:40:42 PM

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quote:

The point is you have a way of communicating that something's going wrong... and you assign the safeword as being something that wouldn't normally come up in a scene so that there is no misunderstanding.

Ok, but if i am reading right, most people seem to use the traffic light system. They seem to say if they say red they have taken all they can and therefore using the word stops play.
Then chelle states using the safe word doesnt mean play stops!! So really what is the point of having a safe word that says 'stop' when they can ignore you anyway?

quote:

it's like several of you are saying you don't want to have a way of signalling an emergency.

I have ways of signalling that i am completely oblivious to during play. Sir has always stopped at the point i can't take anymore, he can read me. Is there a chance one day he won't? Yes. Is that a chance im willing to take? Yes.

quote:

(Which to me is about as sensible as installing a smoke detector, and then not putting the batteries in it.)

And to me its about as sensible as having a safe word that may be ignored!!

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to bipolarber)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:43:30 PM

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Master and I don't use safe words either....he knows my moaning and body language too well.

--Master's {girl}

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:46:28 PM

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As a sub, the only time I use them is when I'm not able to communicate verbally ie: gag, hood, etc and finger-snapping to indicate there's a problem, but not necessarily to stop a scene. As a Domme, yes I always give them one and make sure it's something they can remember that has significance to them.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to gcarlos)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:47:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkatoy

What do you use for safe words?

I think we might have one, but 'motherfucker' and 'please dear god stop' do not seem to phase him.

It doesn't matter when I want it to stop or when I think I need to stop. Those are things he decides.

I can see the value of safe words, but it's still not that much imo.

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(in reply to tinkatoy)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 3:56:57 PM

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Dom, sub, switch, slave, purple headed giraffe, we all make mistakes, we are all human,

Hmmmmm you lost me at purple headed giraffes being human. LOL :P

< Message edited by Archer -- 11/6/2007 3:58:16 PM >

(in reply to junecleaver)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 4:03:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Dom, sub, switch, slave, purple headed giraffe, we all make mistakes, we are all human,

Hmmmmm you lost me at purple headed giraffes being human. LOL :P

yeah that's novel...it's been pointed out a few times and let me suggest to you that you have no idea if it's human or not since it doesn't exist. I'm not changing it. I'm tricky like that.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 11/6/2007 4:04:54 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Archer)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 4:11:26 PM

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Red usually but sometimes I just go with the first think that pops in my head.

I've had giraffe, sugar, mooooooo, or sometimes I give them phases that they have to say.

One was "smack my ass and call me tullulah!", my response was "I thought that was what I was doing anyway "

(in reply to tinkatoy)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 4:12:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VieVivante

Padriag's comment that "if you are playing privately and the dominant/Top doesn't give a damn, no amount of safewords or life jackets is going to help you", is nonsensical and besides the point. If one is playing with someone who doesn't have any interest in your well being, whether you had agreed to a safe word or not, you are still in the same bit of trouble.

Apparently I wasn't clear enough in making my point so I'll take this opportunity to rectify that. (Admittedly I have the flu and my head isn't that clear today.) The problem with safe words isn't so much the usage of a safeword itself, in certain contexts its fine. However, what often does create a problem is the degree to which people rely on them thinking that having a safe words is... to continue a metaphor, like having a life jacket which will keep them safe. Unfortunately, I've seen both people relying too heavily on safe words get hurt, and people fished out of lakes wearing life jackets who still drowned. Safewords can be useful in some situations, I don't contest that, but like any other precautionary measure the limits of their usefulness needs to be understood. It seems increasingly that isn't the case. Browse profiles of dominants, listen in chat rooms and various other venues and you will increasingly hear individuals proclaiming that they use safewords as if that alone validates that they are "safe", which it does not. Even more worrisome, many new submissives and Bottoms are taken in by it. Both are only exacerbated by the often heard mantra's tauting safewords as being the responsible thing to do.

Safewords have limits. If you don't know the person you are playing with well enough to fully feel safe with them without safewords... then safe words won't keep you safe. If the person doesn't hear you use it, or misunderstand your usage of it... again, it won't be of any help. If as a submissive you get so deep into subspace, or the dom goes so far into "top space" that one or the other is unable to use it or to react to its use... safewords won't help. And if the submissive simply forgets the safeword... again... won't help any.

Safewords, like most safety measures, have limitations and flaws. Unfortunately its become very popular to wave the "safeword banner" around as though it solved all these problems. Somebody is going to get hurt because of that sort of thinking.

quote:

Fact is, I have never heard a legitimate account that the use of safewords resulted in an unsafe situation.

No problem, here's a couple.

I was playing with a girl years back when I was still fairly new... and I used safewords because I'd been told that's what you were supposed to do if you were responsible... (responsible people don't play without safewords, or so they said). So I picked a safeword for her... Aardvark... cause it just didn't seem likely that that was going to come up for any other reason. I put some thought into that and was all proud of myself and shit. So we get to playing and there I am flogging away and having a grand old time. And she's yelling and moaning and squirming pretty much like I expected, complete with begging and pleading and all that. I hadn't a clue anything was wrong, but being new I didn't quite have full control over the flogger and it was wrapping on her... she really did want me to stop. But me, figuring if she really needed me to stop she'd say Aardvark, I ignored it and kept on enjoying myself. After that was over I was dutifully checking on her, seeing to aftercare and all that... at which point she told me... giggling and a lil embarassed... that she wanted to safeword, but she couldn't remember what it was! Doh! We both shared a moment of feeling really stupid. Fortunately no real harm was done, but I hate to think what could have happened had I been doing something rougher.

I have known submissives who went so much into subspace they couldn't safeword, you could break their arm (and I know one lady who ended up with a ruptured spleen from a too heavy whipping) and they might not even notice.

And if the Bottom can forget what the safeword is... one would presume the Top might as well, particularly if its something they aren't used to. (Golly, I was wondering why she kept shouting Aardvark, I thought it was some kind of weird fetish...)

Oh... and to the OP... for whatever its worth at this point. I once used Aardvark, though you might want to carefully consider whether or not to use it.

quote:

(and this is from a gentleman I consider to be very wise in the way of BDSM)

Awe shucks... now you're gonna make me blush.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to VieVivante)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 4:30:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I agree with most of what you have written, but in certain cases I think there is exceptions to this.

I enjoy the resistance element in my primal play and I want the bottom to let go and loosen up. In those experiences, plain language was almost useless to me because there was a lot of "Noooo!" "Please, stop!" "Don't do that!" going on.

When things get intense and "Noooo!" doesn't mean "Nooo!" at all, I think its important to have a clear code word that there is no confusion about.

If it works for you, that's great. Just make sure you agree to a safeword you will both remember... and that she will actually use it.

Even better, learn to read her body language, listen for changes in her tone of voice, etc. that can alert you to when you need to take a break. Also, dominants need to be knowledgeable enough to know what the risks actually are and know when to stop things whether a safeword (in any form) is use or not.

I was talking this over with a submissive this morning, and she wasn't sure she agreed with me either. So I grabbed her arm and began to squeeze while digging my fingers in. For those that don't know me, I do construction work and I have a VERY strong grip. It didn't take long before she was crying uncle. In a very calm voice I pointed out that while she might think she can't take anymore, in point of fact she could because I wasn't going to let go. What I was doing wasn't causing her any real harm and that at most she'd have a few finger marks and maybe a lil bruising to show for it. All she could do was squirm until I decided she'd had enough. When I did let go, there was a clear outline of my fingers impressed into her forearm with no other lasting effect. The point is, a safeword wasn't needed because I knew what was safe and when to stop... and she trusts me enough to be comfortable with that. Had she had a safeword she might have used it, and that would take us back to Merc's point about it becoming a means of submissives "topping from the bottom".

I've done forced play with others. Any who have read my journal have likely read about "the Hunt". There's lots of pleading, begging, screaming, etc... just as you describe. But all that can stop in an instant if I detect something is wrong. If I see a girl fall while running, I don't just jerk her up... I may not be overt about it but I am watching to see that she's okay. If I pin a girl to the ground, I'm careful in how I do that... how much and in what way I twist or bend arms and legs, careful how much pressure I apply to her neck, careful about how I move her around. She may be unaware just how careful and "gentle" I'm actually being with her... afterall, if I wanted I could all too easily seriously injure her. I never stop being careful, never stop being alert and aware of what I am doing and how it affects her. Her safety is in my hands. I made the mistake once, long ago, of thinking that I could relax and rely on a safeword to keep things safe... won't do that again.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 4:40:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

a safe word does not automatically equate the session stopping unless the Dominant decides that the session should stop...

Whats the point of having a safe word then?

In my case - to pause it long enough to discuss the issue, make the issue not an issue and resume the fun.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 5:24:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkatoy

What do you use for safe words?

I've never had a safe word with my Master and I don't now. There is very little I can add here, as Merc, Padriag, Misterbation and Erin have already expressed my views. I communicate when I fear there is a problem occurring or about to occur. If I am without words, I communicate by the way my cries change and the way my body movements change. He reads me well. Communicating there's a problem does not mean he will stop what he's doing. Sometimes he chooses to stop, sometimes he switches things up so the problem goes away, and sometimes he keeps on going. Usually he senses there's a possible problem simply by the change in my response to what he's doing, before I even have a chance to communicate anything. There has been a time or two when he has abruptly stopped, taken my face in his hands, and said "Talk to me" because he knew there was an issue occuring before I even did.

I trust him to be in control of me, in all things. When he plays with me/uses me is no different than any other life scenario as far as that goes.

(in reply to tinkatoy)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 5:29:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

a safe word does not automatically equate the session stopping unless the Dominant decides that the session should stop...

Whats the point of having a safe word then?

For us, it means time to communicate and fix a problem such as a limb going numb or a cramp. Sometimes things have to stop but it's just a way of saying there's a problem whether big or small.

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 5:41:26 PM

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Hmmm... I tried to use a safeword once.

Unfortunatly, I was screaming so loud that he could not hear me

Seriously .... Never used a safeword.... Often used to scream at him to stop... never worked though
/scratches head in confusion

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RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 5:59:39 PM

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I far prefer to talk with my Dominant about the sensations being caused. If something is starting to really be uncomfortable, or to push me past where I feel safe, I will express this need. If I am gagged, believe me I will make it known that I need to speak.
I do, however, have a safe word, but it is purely for "forced" play, where protestation is expected. I have not ever needed to use it though.

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 7:23:04 PM

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aardvark

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 7:54:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber
I guess this is what's really confusing me about this thread: it's like several of you are saying you don't want to have a way of signalling an emergency.

I'm not trying to say that you should have no means of communicating an emergency. What I am trying to say is that you should by all means communicate if there is an emergency.

What confuses me is why people cling to this safe word philosophy. Why would we want to take completely unrelated words and assign them new meanings, hinge our very safety upon them...and then expect that someone who may be in an altered state of mind can sift through that fog and try to make a connection between them....and then communicate that made up word with the new meaning when what they really mean already has a perfectly good, entirely different word that would more effectively communicate that emergency. Just trying to type that confused the shit out of me....I can't imagine trying to run through that process in subspace....especially after some emergency has already occurred and that word won't prevent it from happening.

The justifications for the use of these "code" words is generally so that things like "no" and "stop" don't get misunderstood. Why is the vocabulary of a submissive thought to be so limited? Do dominants think that we are incapable of expressing our needs with real words that actually mean what we say? Maybe I'm weird, but if I get a cramp the first word that usually comes into my mind is "cramp". If I overextend my knee the first thing that pops into my head is "knee". If I'm going to puke...well you guessed it...."puke".

And we haven't even touched on all of those submissives out there who won't utter a safe word that is given to them because they would be embarassed to do so, think that they are not pleasing their dominant, would feel like a failure, or are trying to prove how much they can endure.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 11/6/2007 7:56:55 PM >

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to bipolarber)

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