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RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 10:14:56 AM   
deziray


Posts: 18
Status: offline
quote:

The exception of course is when you session with a clairvoyant who would use the safe word prior to the sensation.

That got a giggle

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 10:20:09 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you Erin, for stating so clearly the essense of my main objection to the rampant overuse of safewords, which has become this sort of PC safety mantra among the "community", which has apparently forgotten where and why the use of safewords began in their rush to demonstrate how "safe, sane and saintly" they are.  Safewords began at play parties and public dungeons where frequently people met and played with people they hardly knew at all and/or had just met (and how SSC that can be in the first place is pretty debatable IMNSHO).  Under such circumstances people couldn't count on the other person knowing their limits, their reactions, etc. well enough to know when to quit so they came up with "safewords" which were nothing more than signals as to when to stop during play that otherwise might include begging and pleading to stop, forced play scenes, etc.  And even then it didn't so much rely on the Top's compliance as it did the presence of moderators who would intervene if the Top didn't stop upon use of the safeword.  In that context, I thing safewords are a pretty good idea in a situation that is probably otherwise of questionable wisdom.

However, outside that safewords aren't of much real use.  Playing privately there's no one to intervene.  If a dominant is either so dense or so out of control that they can't understand "Sir, please stop, you're REALLY breaking my arm!" let's face it folks, at that point you're pretty much fucked.  Colored lights, code words, etc. in such circumstances aren't any more useful than plain language, and in many situations plain language would be more useful as it would communicate exactly what was wrong.  If I'm tying someone up and I've gotten something too tight such that it's cutting off the circulation and a arm, leg, hand or foot is going numb the submissive can simply tell me that and, using my own judgement, I'll decide how to react (usually by adjusting the tie so that the problem is resolved... unless I wanted her arm to go numb...).

BDSM play is not boating... and I do both.  You fall out of a boat and can't swim well, you're in serious trouble because you're in an environment in which you aren't fully equipped to survive (unless you actually can breathe water....).  BDSM play is good deal more forgiving, provided the dominant/Top is genuinely responsible and concerned with the well being of the submissive/Bottom.  If play gets too intense, it's very easily stopped, provided the dominant/Top does so.  However, if you are playing privately and the dominant/Top doesn't give a damn, no amount of safewords or life jackets is going to help you.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 10:25:49 AM   
VieVivante


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		Using quick reply.

Funny how any subject about safe words always ends up in a debate about whether one couple uses them or not. And whether they are safe or not. Always! The simple answer is if a safe word works for you, by all means use it. If you don't need one, don't. Each D/s relationship is different, with different needs, wants and demands.

(in reply to deziray)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 10:26:41 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Thank you Erin, for stating so clearly the essense of my main objection to the rampant overuse of safewords, which has become this sort of PC safety mantra among the "community", which has apparently forgotten where and why the use of safewords began in their rush to demonstrate how "safe, sane and saintly" they are. 


Your welcome.

quote:

  BDSM play is not boating... and I do both.  You fall out of a boat and can't swim well, you're in serious trouble because you're in an environment in which you aren't fully equipped to survive (unless you actually can breathe water....).


But you are forgetting the fantasy aspect of BDSM which seems to lead some people to believe that they can walk on water.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 11/6/2007 10:27:11 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 10:46:47 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

  BDSM play is not boating... and I do both.  You fall out of a boat and can't swim well, you're in serious trouble because you're in an environment in which you aren't fully equipped to survive (unless you actually can breathe water....).


But you are forgetting the fantasy aspect of BDSM which seems to lead some people to believe that they can walk on water.

True... true...

I also wasn't going to mention my habit of swimming out in the middle of a lake, flipping over on my back and taking a nap...  I'm not normal.

I think the point was made by several of us... safewords are only "safe" if they are understood, used appropriately and respected.  If the Top/dominant misunderstands the safeword (doesn't hear it, etc.), or if the Bottom/submissive forgets what their safe word is (and I've seen that happen), or if the Top/dominant simply ignores the safeword... any of those situations renders the safeword useless.  Unfortunately for those who cling to safewords like lifejackets, any of those situations can be all too common.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 10:57:47 AM   
VieVivante


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		With respect to Padriag and mistoferin,
Whether or not one chooses to use safe words is one thing, the choice made individually as it should be. To state that safe words are Unsafe, however, that is just silly.

Padriag's comment that "if you are playing privately and the dominant/Top doesn't give a damn, no amount of safewords or life jackets is going to help you", is nonsensical (and this is from a gentleman I consider to be very wise in the way of BDSM) and besides the point. If one is playing with someone who doesn't have any interest in your well being, whether you had agreed to a safe word or not, you are still in the same bit of trouble.

Fact is, I have never heard a legitimate account that the use of safewords resulted in an unsafe situation. With one exception. There was a thread on here a while back where subs were asked if they would ever use their safe word. A shocking number said they would never use it, for a variety of reasons. Now that IS unsafe, if the Dom believes there is a safeword in place for problems, and the sub refuses to use it out of misguided pride, that is most unfair to the Dom. If you have a safeword, and would never use it, your Dom needs to know that.

Even this example is not one showing that safe words are unsafe, rather it is NOT using a safe word that has been agreed to, that makes this situation unsafe.

Whether someone uses safe words or not is a personal choice, as it should be. Stating that safe words are not safe though? I've never heard of a situation to back up that claim.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:02:29 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		'Fact' is you are misrepresenting what erin said.
She never said that safewords were unsafe.  She said that relying on them was.
Big difference.
 
the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:04:41 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

If a dominant is either so dense or so out of control that they can't understand "Sir, please stop, you're REALLY breaking my arm!" let's face it folks, at that point you're pretty much fucked.  Colored lights, code words, etc. in such circumstances aren't any more useful than plain language, and in many situations plain language would be more useful as it would communicate exactly what was wrong. 


I agree with most of what you have written, but in certain cases I think there is exceptions to this.

I enjoy the resistance element in my primal play and I want the bottom to let go and loosen up. In those experiences, plain language was almost useless to me because there was a lot of "Noooo!" "Please, stop!" "Don't do that!" going on.

When things get intense and "Noooo!" doesn't mean "Nooo!" at all, I think its important to have a clear code word that there is no confusion about.



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(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:11:28 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMataeo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I do not use safewords nor will I consider playing with anyone who insists upon the use of one.


for me it's up to them ,, if they feel comfortable with me then so be it,,
I know my limits,, nad know how to read them on others,,
and i wouldn't play with anyone insist on them ,, for then  the common problem of being topped fromthe bottom comes up,,
withme it's an option,, one that i respect ,, but dont require,,
MM


For me it doesn't have anything to do with comfort, or length of relationship, or familiarity, or trust, or topping from the bottom.

To me relying upon a "safe" word is just a very "UN-safe" thing to do.


My general opinion is that it doesn't hurt for her to have one for the "INSERT ranom possibility here" scenario.

But to say that I rely on it or am even entertaining the idea that she is going to use it when needed is quite a stretch.

My biggest beef with the huge focus on them is the perspective that sometimes develops in new Dominants that they can do whatever they want up until the safe word is used.

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Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:13:46 AM   
probablyknowme


Posts: 1875
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline 		Wow...I have deliberately not responded to this thread for some time now because I was watching the heated debate. My opinion on safe words is really simple. It is simply to say "Stop something is wrong and I need your help." (If you want to know how nerdy I am, I like to use paramecium. For the bonus points, what sitcom did I get it from?)  If I safe word, it means that there is something very wrong, not just oh damn that hurts. Something has come up that my Top is not aware of and I cannot go any further.

That being said, in my opinion, safewords are a important thing when people are new to BDSM, playing with people who do not have the necessary experience to instill confidence in their partner, or even for those of us who are more experienced and trying something new.

kat



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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:14:46 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VieVivante
Fact is, I have never heard a legitimate account that the use of safewords resulted in an unsafe situation.


I have, on numerous occasions here, posted detailed accounts of instances that I have personally witnessed or been involved in where the use of safe words has complicated a bad situation or simply completely failed.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to VieVivante)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:17:39 AM   
VieVivante


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not seeing the big difference Darcy. Safewords are safe, unless you rely on them at which point they become unsafe? Seems to be circular logic to me.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:18:03 AM   
MasterMataeo


Posts: 215
Joined: 1/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: VieVivante
Fact is, I have never heard a legitimate account that the use of safewords resulted in an unsafe situation.


I have, on numerous occasions here, posted detailed accounts of instances that I have personally witnessed or been involved in where the use of safe words has complicated a bad situation or simply completely failed.



as have i,,,

MM

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:24:14 AM   
VieVivante


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		mist and Mataeo, I will take your word for it. All I can say is that in the many years I have been in the scene, I have not had that experience, nor have I read of such an experience. Could one of you point me to such a post, as I would be very interested in reading it.

(in reply to MasterMataeo)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:26:30 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VieVivante

I'm not seeing the big difference Darcy. Safewords are safe, unless you rely on them at which point they become unsafe? Seems to be circular logic to me.


Not really. I give someone a safeword for the "Just in case" factor. They have it and if they use it, then I know immediately something is screwed up, even during play where communication is paradoxical and confusing.

However, there is no expectation or reliance on them. For all purposes, I don't even factor the notion that she has one into my thinking. I rely on direct communication, my ability to read body language, and my own gut intuition to tell me when something is wrong, not waiting around with my thumb up my ass, doing whatever I want to her until I hear the magic word that may never come.



_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:27:21 AM   
Abraxus


Posts: 56
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline 		Talk about giving false hope. Thinkin that a safe word will keep you safe is a misnomer. In many cases it isnt possible for a submissive to even use a safe word. They are either mentally unable to or physically unable to. you as a submissive are only as safe as your judgement of who you place your life in the hands of. If you mak a wrong choice the likelyhood of geting hurt is increased. 

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RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:28:41 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VieVivante
Could one of you point me to such a post, as I would be very interested in reading it.


Here's just one example:

quote:

mistoferin
I'm not trying to pick on you but I have to say that it is not direct communication. Shouting out a color gives no indication of what is wrong. About 5 years ago I was at a party and I wasn't really paying much attention to the scene that was going on in the corner. Suddenly the submissive on the cross started frantically screaming red.....just as she'd been told to and conditioned to do. That part was great, the scene stopped immediately and those attending raced to get her down. The problem was that she didn't stop screaming red. Everyone rushed to her aid and no one could determine what the problem was. This went on for a full 5 minutes at least with a crowd of people now trying to help. It was a complete and utter clusterfuck. The problem, as it turned out, was that she was writhing so hard that she ruptured a disc in her back. Now here are all these people turning her all different ways trying to find an injury. She did what she was conditioned to do and in her moment of agony and crisis she could not see clear to stop saying red long enough to help the helpers. She could have indeed been further injured by their efforts. All of it could have been avoided had she screamed OMG my back, my back...somethings's wrong.


From this thread:http://www.collarchat.com/m_489399/mpage_1/tm.htm

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 11/6/2007 11:30:48 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to VieVivante)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:30:55 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

We find them incredible useful for rape scenes where the terms "no", "stop", "I'm going to kill you" and me making attempts to force him off me via pressure against his throat means "GOD I FUCKING LOVE THIS".

Usually our safeword is his name or some random word. We never keep track to be honest. It is my belief that any word, including "no", "stop", "this hurts, get off", is a safeword, just some find it more effective to substitute another word for their type of play. I also do not believe it dominantes the dominant any more then telling your owner to get off the computer when you were instructed to tell him to do so. Telling Valyraen that I don't want to have a safeword anymore, never mind his feelings on the subject, would be taking control and dominanting.

This is what works for us. It is another safety tool. You rely on it too much, you will get hurt. However, the actions of a few who failed to use a safety tool correctly hardly makes it ineffective for those who will use it correctly.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 11/6/2007 11:32:30 AM >

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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(in reply to MasterMataeo)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:31:28 AM   
VieVivante


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Reacting to hearing whatever safe word used to stop or slow down by stopping or slowing down indicates that the "submissive" is using the "dominant" as a sensation facilitator. Whoever controls the activity, or has the ability to control the activity by the use of a word or gesture, is the dominant partner.


Actually, this point of view by Merc has been the most thought provoking to me. I'm not sure I agree with him or not; going to have to think on this a bit.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Safe words - 11/6/2007 11:32:46 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VieVivante

I'm not seeing the big difference Darcy. Safewords are safe, unless you rely on them at which point they become unsafe? Seems to be circular logic to me.


If you rely on safewords, and not taking into account external circumstances and internal reactions then safewords and the persons relying on them unsafe.  No circular logic there.
 
There is a thread going on right now on the subs forum where a male beta submissive admits that his body was crying red and his head was green - so there is one example right there where he went into shock and further investigation showed more deeper reasons.  If his Mistress had relyed only on the safeword, there would be no discussion.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to VieVivante)
Profile   Post #: 60
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