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RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 9:43:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breastbonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
All I'm saying is that there are many choices, the least of which is divorce. You might consider exploring some other options. Just in case.

Well that was a pretty succinct summation of the choices, adding in that someone will be hurt no matter what I do. She and I have our issues, they may not be our faults but they are there. But there are also innocents involved, and given the choice between hurting her or them I chose the lesser of two evils.

I'm pretty sure I know what the response will be but I'm beginning to see now it still needs to be confronted. Maybe I'll be surprised.

Just to let you know... those innocents can get hurt just as badly when you cheat. My father went that route and it was years before I could respect him or anything he had taught me about honesty and being true to your word again. The fighting that happened between them in the house afterwards was Hell and I was honestly encouraging my mother to leave his ass.

Not trying to judge, just providing information.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to breastbonder)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 9:49:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Just to let you know... those innocents can get hurt just as badly when you cheat.

I appreciate it.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 10:10:13 AM

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

just a guess, but, considering some legal jurisdictions consider adultery a crime against marriage, and that cheating is also considered false representation and a form of fraud...as examples of crimes involving moral turpitude?

Child molestation, rape, and murder are crimes of violence, not moral turpitude. Cheating is not a crime of moral turpitude because its not a crime.

The closest analogy to cheating is breach of contract.

People are just INSANE in this area.

jeez, it's a stretch, but not necessarily INSANE.

the crimes of violence mentioned above, as well as fraud ARE considered to be crimes of "moral turpitude", maybe not by YOU, or the legal jurisdiction that may or may not be handling his divorce...but it fits the definition of the U.S. Department of State, for purposes of rejecting folks who try to immigrate legally here.

this slave agrees cheating on a spouse is a breach of contract, but then this slave believes there is a moral obligation to a spouse, as long as they are a spouse, as well, even if the court doesn't ajudicate morality...much.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 10:10:53 AM

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Joined: 5/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: breastbonder

I'm married to a vanilla and feel trapped in the relationship. Basically made a wrong choice then and now am paying for it.

My question is, how do subs feel when they're approached by a married man? If I'm open and honest about it I'd have thought it would not be a problem but it's not turning out that way. In many cases there seems to be instant hatred eminating from them without knowing who I am or how or why I got into the situation I find myself in.

Are married men seeking d/s relationships with others, possibly also married, that universally reviled, or have I just been extremely :) unlucky so far?

Hello, breastbonder:

I know something of your "conundrum."

I am not a submissive, so I don't know how submissives react to being approached by married men, in general.

However, I'm married, and I have approached a few submissives on this site, so I can speak of my own experience.

Several submissives have been quite hostile, as though my approaching them was some kind of personal affront. That response surprised and bothered me so much that I added some text to my profile that basically said to submissives that if I approach you and you're not interested, because I'm married or for whatever reason, please just say so--no preaching necessary.

(I have been astonished at the extent to which a supposedly non-judgmental community has no problem judging married people who are here, but I digress...)

So, some, if not many, submissives will reject you out-of-hand because you're married. They will only consider you if your spouse knows and approves of your activities here, and some will want verification of that fact from your wife. Now, I don't know about you, but to me that would be the rare situation. It certainly doesn't apply to me! That will definitely limit your possibilities!

On the other hand, if you're up-front about being married (and I can see from your profile that you are), in my experience there are enough submissives here who will accept you as you are, knowing the limitations that being married imposes on you (if you have a "normal" married life), that it's still worthwhile to hang in and search for what you want.

And, really, when you think about it, that's not all that different from the way things are in the vanilla world, is it?

I strongly suggest that you grow a thick skin, because more submissives than you might expect will make it their business to tell you all about the sanctity of marriage, whether or not you need that particular sermon, as though they just graduated with honors from divinity school.

Look at it as the price of admission!

< Message edited by Blaakmaan -- 11/20/2007 10:16:41 AM >

(in reply to breastbonder)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 10:19:28 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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It's not the being married that is the issue people seem to have Blaakmaan, it's the with-holding information from another.

And hey - who lied to you that this 'community' is less judgemental!

the.dark.

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RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Blaakmaan)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 11:29:24 AM

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Joined: 6/10/2007
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Just a personal observation:

I've noticed that a lot of people on this site and other "alt" type sites are, for the most part, pretty judgmental of others and, oddly enough, not very tolerant towards many social issues. We all need to remember that people living alternative lifestyles are in the minority and, of all people, need to be more tolerant and open-minded.

That said, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to involve themselves with someone who is married or in a "committed" relationship. I totally appreciate all the reasons. But, I think if someone is upfront and tells you that they're married or involved with someone, you should respect them for being honest with you. Many people are in relationships that are based on true love...and not necessarily sex. The original poster, Brestbonder, may have discovered his desire for bdsm after he married his wife. His marriage may be excellent in every way except in the bedroom. After a while, sex with your spouse is just not the most important thing in a relationship...it just isn't. And anyone who's been married for ten or more years knows that to be the truth. No one stays with their partner for any length of time because of sex.

I'm not advocating for people to be cheating on their spouses, but if your partner is your soul mate but doesn't share some of your own sexual desires, why would you break up and go your own separate ways just because one of you wants to fuck someone else now and then? I can't imagine Brestbonder loves his wife any less because he has sex with other women. If Brestbonder doesn't love his wife, I would tell him to "move on". However, if Brestbounder does love his wife deeply, they should stay together. I just think it's totally unrealistic for anyone to expect their spouse, especially a man, to be faithful with regards to sexuality.

I say give the guy a break!

(in reply to toservez)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 1:15:01 PM

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Joined: 6/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: desertsubguy

<snip>. We all need to remember that people living alternative lifestyles are in the minority and, of all people, need to be more tolerant and open-minded.

We are all individuals, therefore have no obligation to be more open minded or tolerant of anyone, anymore then anyone else is.

I agree that society as a whole should be more tolerant and open minded but just because we classify ourselves as kinky doesn't automatically make it so that we "should" be.

quote:

<snip> you should respect them for being honest with you.
I say give the guy a break!

Being honest is a wonderful and great thing. But just because someone is honest about being married doesn't mean the person he was honest with has to go against their beliefs or wishes and be involved with the married person.

I don't believe in being rude, would be best just to say "Thanks for telling me, bu I have no interest in being involved with a married person"

But also, the married person should respect that some people do not want to be the "dirty secret" or the "other woman" and not throw a temper tantrum when they are told that as a married person they hold no interest for the person they are trying to persue.

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(in reply to desertsubguy)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 1:59:51 PM

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Joined: 5/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: breastbonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
I am not going to apologize for my words; they were the result of your original post. Your subsequent explanations have helped a bit; however I would still have to ask the same thing that everyone else is asking.

Are you honest with your wife about what you want? If you are honest with her; then chances are that more submissives will be open to your particular situation. If you can't be honest with your own wife though; not many are going to want to have anything to do with you. As stated though, this is not a universal reaction; there are some who don't mind.

Hi. I'm not asking for any apologies. I was very vague because when I decided to do this I also decided that I would not come here and bash anyone nor seek to blame anything on anyone but myself.

You have a point of course and thanks to all of you I see that a lot more clearly now. It's not going to be an easy conversation but something I need to consider doing, how to go about doing it and what negatives there could be in doing so. Talking about it a little has helped.

By now, you've gotten a taste of the monumental judgments that this "community" feels free to lay on married persons who dare to tread on this hallowed ground without the express, written consent of their spouses.

You'll find that there is no shortage of marriage counselors on here.

Not long ago, I posted several opinions on a thread dealing with race play, which I personally find to be pretty repugnant. Oh, the vituperation that was called down upon my head for being "judgmental" about somebody else's kink!

Some "brotha" even called me a "hater"! It seems that I wasn't supposed to be judgmental about that.

But your being married and on CollarMe without your wife's seal of approval?--open season on you, apparently!

Very strange...

As I said before, grow yourself a very thick skin, and then go forth and find what you're looking for, just like the rest of the wonderful, brave, honest, open, perfect people on here!

They can't run you off of here with their judgments unless you let them, and there will be some submissives who will be open to the possibility of a relationship with you. Trust me.

Just do the best you can by whomever you find! That's all anybody can ask for.

Good luck to you!

(in reply to breastbonder)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 2:16:46 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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I really don't think it has anything to do with the fact that someone is married. Based on what I've seen in other posts, if a member of a committed and exclusive poly group came on and wanted to know how to find someone outside of their group and planned to hide it from everyone else in their group, they would get much the same reaction.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Blaakmaan)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 3:24:29 PM

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quote:

We all need to remember that people living alternative lifestyles are in the minority and, of all people, need to be more tolerant and open-minded

Umm
can we say
BULLSHIT

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RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 4:14:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

jeez, it's a stretch, but not necessarily INSANE.

the crimes of violence mentioned above, as well as fraud ARE considered to be crimes of "moral turpitude", maybe not by YOU, or the legal jurisdiction that may or may not be handling his divorce...but it fits the definition of the U.S. Department of State, for purposes of rejecting folks who try to immigrate legally here.

this slave agrees cheating on a spouse is a breach of contract, but then this slave believes there is a moral obligation to a spouse, as long as they are a spouse, as well, even if the court doesn't ajudicate morality...much.

I cannot equate cheating with a crime of violence. Such a leap is beyond stretching and extends into insanity. Maybe the root insanity is an emotional bias jilted lovers feel -- who instead of accepting disappointment -- instead project "evil" outward and onto their nefarious heart-breaker.

---

You are wrong about the immigration laws; rape, murder and child molestation are AGGRAVATED FELONIES, not Crimes of Moral Turpitude (CIMT). Fraud, on the other hand, might qualify as one or both, depending on the facts.

Yes, to some degree you can argue that murder is battery, but why do it? Murder stands fine on its own, and you don't need to dress it up with a lesser included offense. The same goes for aggravated felonies and CIMT.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/20/2007 4:15:26 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 4:24:05 PM

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Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

We all need to remember that people living alternative lifestyles are in the minority and, of all people, need to be more tolerant and open-minded

Umm
can we say
BULLSHIT

I agree...What? Do we not have morals and values just because we like our sex in a "different" way?....what I do in the bedroom is NOT all that I am... Honor...respect... honesty....integrity..... Do I not have these because I call a Man Master? This lifestyle is NOT an excuse for bad behavior PERIOD ....ok thats all I got....

_____________________________

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(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 4:35:47 PM

frustratinggirl

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/13/2007
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Geezus it not a matter of being judgemental , its matter of ethics. By lying to his spouse he is giving her the wrong directions , she is making decisions she otherwise wouldnt have if she knew, you are in fact directing her life and denying her own autonomy as a human being. Thats not judgement, thats allowing another human being to be able to make decisions for themselves without false pretenses. Thats every persons right and it doesnt matter if you have reasons that got you there in the first place. Throughout history there have been governments, organizations and laws built on this witholding of information for "the well being" of others, or even choosing decisons for them in the spirit of benevolence. As soon as your actions deny anothers persons right to self govern themselvses, your actions are then deemed unethical.

So sir, if your wondering why it seems as though people are judging you, their protestations are coming out of their value systems of what is deemed the ethical way of treating all human beings, not personal preferences. You require the same ability to self govern your life without lies making you act differently as well, yours isnt more important than hers, especially as seen by outsiders.

To get out of your conundrum ethically the options are harsh, time consuming and even spirit breaking. But doing the oppsoite is betraying your ability to be honest with your self in exchange for the easy way out.

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 4:38:26 PM

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Joined: 5/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

jeez, it's a stretch, but not necessarily INSANE.

the crimes of violence mentioned above, as well as fraud ARE considered to be crimes of "moral turpitude", maybe not by YOU, or the legal jurisdiction that may or may not be handling his divorce...but it fits the definition of the U.S. Department of State, for purposes of rejecting folks who try to immigrate legally here.

this slave agrees cheating on a spouse is a breach of contract, but then this slave believes there is a moral obligation to a spouse, as long as they are a spouse, as well, even if the court doesn't ajudicate morality...much.

I cannot equate cheating with a crime of violence. Such a leap is beyond stretching and extends into insanity. Maybe the root insanity is an emotional bias jilted lovers feel -- who instead of accepting disappointment -- instead project "evil" outward and onto their nefarious heart-breaker.

---

You are wrong about the immigration laws; rape, murder and child molestation are AGGRAVATED FELONIES, not Crimes of Moral Turpitude (CIMT). Fraud, on the other hand, might qualify as one or both, depending on the facts.

Yes, to some degree you can argue that murder is battery, but why do it? Murder stands fine on its own, and you don't need to dress it up with a lesser included offense. The same goes for aggravated felonies and CIMT.

I beg to differ!

Murder, rape, etc. are crimes of moral terpitude, as well as aggrevated felonies. According to Wikipedia (which isn't the best legal reference, but it will do for now), moral terpitude is a legal concept in the USA, which refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty, or good morals".

Murder, rape, robbery, manslaughter, etc. are all felonies, and they are all crimes of moral terpitude, also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude

I, however, have no idea what any of this has to do with the original post!!!

Are we now equating cheating on one's spouse with comitting a violent crime like murder or rape??? In any respect???

I hope not!!! Where will it all end?

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 6:55:16 PM

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From: Sacramento
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They're worse to me than cheating. Which is a reply to luci's comment that cheating is the most publically vile thing you can admit to on here. If you twist the quotes you can make them say anything you want. You've cut out entirely what else I said to make it look like I lump cheating in with other more despicable to me things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

cheating ............ Molesting children raping someone killing someone ect ect.

Why would you even group these together??

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 6:59:48 PM

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<--- never claimed to be non judgmental. I am judgmental as hell, most the time I keep my judgments to myself unless asked about it however. Lots of other people here didn'tc laim to be non judgmental either. Go into the tolerance thread, and you'll see several people saying they reserve the right to have a judgment on something.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

(I have been astonished at the extent to which a supposedly non-judgmental community has no problem judging married people who are here, but I digress...)

(in reply to Blaakmaan)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 8:59:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Hmmm, makes me wonder. Kind of like I wonder how millions of disco records were sold but no one ever admits to buying a Bee Gees album.

Bee Gees?!?!?!?!

Sorry, but it was Donna Summer here all the way... except when it was La Chic and of course Peaches and Herb...

Bee Gees.... OMG...

juliet

<strides to the podium.... hesitates>

Hi my name is Cali and..... I went to a Bee Gees concert once. Wahhhh!

<runs sobbing down the aisle and out the door>

Cali

Yeah, well.....what about KC and the Sunshine Band, girls? Huh? Wanna admit that????.............luci

"Celllllllll-ebrate good times COME ON!!!"

who?

juliet

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 9:30:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: desertsubguy

I just think it's totally unrealistic for anyone to expect their spouse, especially a man, to be faithful with regards to sexuality.

Ok, I have issues with this statement. The presumption that men can't keep their .. um.. appendages .. within their clothing as if it's somehow beyond them is pretty insulting - and I'm not even a man.

However, I do believe that each and every one of us deserves to make decisions for ourselves. This means that breastbonder's wife has the absolute right to decide that bdsm isn't something she wants to engage in. Conversely, breastbonder has the absolute right to decide that bdsm IS something he wants to engage in. The trick is for them to find respect for each other and some common ground within that dynamic.

I have this strange idea that the ultimate betrayal when someone cheats isn't that they were with someone else, but that they lied to their spouse or significant other. The men and women I know who have been cheated on, nearly to a person, have told me that their greatest anger is over being lied to. So... if you cheat, it's a pretty safe bet that divorce is in your future. However, if you're up front about your desires, you stand a chance of not heading toward divorce. The dilemma is in trying to guess how things are going to turn out.

My view is that if I were still married and I was heading to divorce, then I at least want to know I'd been honest along the way. I wouldn't want to hurt my spouse any more than I had to - no matter what. At the same time, my spouse's right to participate in the type of relationship he wants is no more valid than my right to participate in the type of relationship I want. And I guess, I'd approach my explanation with that in mind.

A friend of mine had this exact issue. For years he took care of his needs without his significant other knowing. Then one night, he had something happen that caused him to be unable to make it home. The next morning when he finally got home, he had to explain to his wife where he was. He was fully expecting his relationship to end. Instead, what he got was his partner agreeing to explore this relationship. She has subsequently become a truly outstanding dominant - and she does so with grace and style. He'd have continued to sneak around if not for what happened that one night. As it was, he lost so much time and energy trying to hide his "other life" only to find out that she was willing all along. That certainly doesn't work for everyone, but if divorce is in the cards anyway, there's really nothing to lose by bringing up the subject.

juliet

(in reply to desertsubguy)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/20/2007 9:58:02 PM

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IrishMist, I agree with a lot of your posts, and generally find them thoughtful and articulate, but it's clear from posts like this one that on this particular subject, you're not prepared to talk rationally. Calling someone's opinion "bullshit" just because it isn't identical to your own is a sign that your personal emotional response to a certain subject overrides everything else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Umm
can we say
BULLSHIT

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 5:20:56 AM

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Joined: 12/14/2005
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The greater more serious offense subsumes/absorbs the lesser one.

Hence, if convicted of murder, you cannot be charged with battery. The same is true with crimes of violence and aggravated felonies --- they absorb the lesser offense, in this case a CIMT.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/21/2007 5:34:57 AM >

(in reply to Blaakmaan)

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