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RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 5:33:02 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

They're worse [rape, murder, child molestation] to me than cheating.


The "to me" part here can pretty much be excluded altogether.

>If you twist the quotes you can make them say anything you want. You've cut out entirely what else I said to make it look like I lump cheating in with other more despicable to me things.<

I didn't twist the quotes. There is no ejustem generis between cheating, rape, murder, and child molestation. It reflects poorly on you to think such comparisons relflect any kind of rational thought whatsoever.

What's next? Nuclear war is worse than deer hunting? Genocide is worse than tax evasion? A serial killer is worse than a peeping tom?

A rational, clear thinking mind does not put such things together in the same sentence.


(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 6:29:50 AM   
breastbonder


Posts: 28
Joined: 9/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterofScyn

quote:

And lies get easier the more you tell them


And this ..... I have no idea where you get this from.... Lies will snowball.. They get harder.. specially when your lieing to multiple people. Trying to figure out who knows what, what lie you told who.. what was the last lie you said so you can keep that story..

What world did you come from? .... Lies get easier... i'd like to know who told you that.  Him Maybe?

 
Scyn ~


No, I understand what you mean.  My point was if you have any morals at all (not lying, cheating, etc), but decide to give yourself a pass and break them due to some "special" circumstances, it will probably become easier each subsequent time you need a pass.

(in reply to MasterofScyn)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 6:57:17 AM   
breastbonder


Posts: 28
Joined: 9/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

I'm married to a vanilla and feel trapped in the relationship.  Basically made a wrong choice then and now am paying for it. 

You're paying for it?
 
Is that the line that you give to those who you talk to on here? The 'poor me; my wife does not understand" excuse?

Holy fuck.


Missed this one on the first pass.  I'm not used to the forum software here.

Anyway, yeah I hear you, the way you worded it sounds pretty pathetic.  I don't know if it was my choice of words or what, but I definitely did not mean my post to be the whiney, it's all her fault, somebody please help me be a dom kind of wording.  That _is_ crap.

Ironically, I've now gotten some emails like that, from some "doms" in similar situations who want to talk   They want to discuss what did I to introduce my wife to BDSM, etc.  When I look at the profile it is a littany of whining about the "urgings" and their wives "not understanding" etc.  If it makes me want to puke I can understand why my post ellicits the kind of responses I got.

Like I said, I don't want to bash anyone, particularly not my wife and mother of my children.  So I'll keep my discussions to my side of the equation.  I basically made a series of mistakes that got me to the point I am now.  I knew some things about myself and her, and discovered some later but all of those things involved choices I made freely.

Finally, let me say this.  I ultimately don't know what I will do but really want to do the best thing that causes the least amount of hurt to the fewest people.  That may end up being doing nothing, which I can deal with.  The most helpful posts I've gotten have been from people who've been the most honest on both sides of the fence. 

SO, knowing how much I appreciated honest and forthright responses from people like you, even the very negative ones, makes it that much more clear to me about a better approach.  Truth is good, even if it hurts.

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 9:26:58 AM   
MissBathsheba


Posts: 14
Joined: 11/4/2007
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quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Are you saying it's cowardly to stay "trapped" in a marriage when you feel it's the right thing to do even when you'd rather be gone?


No, I am saying that it's cowardly to be trapped in a marriage that you don't want and to sit there and say that 'I am paying for it now". He's placing the blame on his wife when it should be placed on both of them.



I'll grant you that, in most if not all relationships, there's enough blame to go around. No one is perfect and no one is entirely blameless in nearly any situation one can think of. I guess I'm thinking of marriages where perhaps one partner is staying for the good of the other even though they have no desire to for their own sake. In a scenario, say, where one partner becomes physically paralyzed and sexual contact is no longer possible. After years, I'm sure that could wear their partner down. Yet, they do not wish to abandon said partner but they do need some physical/sexual contact that he/she is either unwilling or unable to provide. I don't think it makes a man cowardly to stay in a marriage like that and I don't think it makes him a sleazebag to seek some on the side. I'm sorry, but I just don't. And I don't think it would be right to announce to his wife the TRUTH: " Gee honey, I'm sticking with you and all but I gotta have me some so I'm going to come to you truthfully and tell you that I'm going out to fuck someone else." To me that's an instance of using the "truth" as a weapon. It may ease his conscience to tell her this great, freeing "truth," but it would probably crush her. In an instance like that, I think he's noble for staying with her, justified in seeking physical comfort somewhere else as long as the other person knows his marital situation, and a better man for not clubbing his dear wife over the head with his "truth." There are instances in which deception is kinder than the blunt truth..............luci
quote:

ORIGINAL: breastbonder

Yeah I didn't mean for that to come off sleazy.  In fact I think she is pretty much blameless, which makes it harder.  I knew I was opening myself up to some bashing here but wanted to seek out some opinions anyway.  The wierd thing is I can't say I disagree with alot of what has been said here.



While I can see how some might view having a secret d/s relationship on the side as actually being kind to the spouse (versus divorce) especially in the case where most everything else is good in the marriage, what about the following possibilities to consider:

- he falls in love with the other woman or she with him and then what to do? 
- the wife finds out that he is involved with someone else and has to deal with betrayal which is worse than divorce in my mind
- it is not fair to not allow your wife to have the choice to seek someone that loves her and is able to be completely faithful and fulfilled by her
- risk of pregnancy, STDs 

A married man seeking a submissive is looking for someone to serve him and be completely dedicated to his needs secretly - this isn't a one time fling or no strings attached - at least I personally don't see how a dom/sub relationship could be, but I could be wrong.  Speaking from personal experience (unfortunately) I would recommend that subs not get involved with a married Master that is cheating - you are just setting yourself up for heartbreak or to break the spouse's heart - neither of which are attractive to me as someone who likes to make people happy ...

The reason why freeing the truth might crush her is because the wife cannot accept the spouse for who he really is and what kind of a marriage and lifelong partnership is that?  This isnt the same thing as not liking watching sports or not wanting to go to the opera, being a Dominant is part of a man's core in my opinion, and as someone said earlier, why live a lie? 


(in reply to breastbonder)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 9:50:37 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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~ Fast Reply ~

I stopped posting to threads like this long ago but there were some really good statements here made by luci, cloudboy and LaM that I wanted to applaud.

I created a post in Off Topics not too long ago, about how everyone compromises their values and ethics at some point or other, to some degree or other, and I listed examples in how we do so.  Oddly enough, it didn't get much response...

As for the Disco Parade, let me just say I'll get right on that Double Dutch Bus with you all and party on!  Let me here ya say HO......

(in reply to MissBathsheba)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 9:57:59 AM   
breastbonder


Posts: 28
Joined: 9/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

~ Fast Reply ~

I created a post in Off Topics not too long ago, about how everyone compromises their values and ethics at some point or other, to some degree or other, and I listed examples in how we do so.  Oddly enough, it didn't get much response...


Well I'm curious so I'll go see what you said...

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 10:46:49 AM   
ownedgirlie


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http://www.collarchat.com/m_1389984/mpage_1/tm.htm

(in reply to breastbonder)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 11:07:03 AM   
MissBathsheba


Posts: 14
Joined: 11/4/2007
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Thank you for sharing your link.  I have definitely compromised on my values and ethics in many ways I never thought I would.  I am involved with a married man which I never ever thought I would do, and all I was saying was that something that starts out as something small and harmless may turn out to be a lot more complicated in areas that one may not have considered upfront.  When strong emotions are involved, and fate intervenes in your life unexpectedly, somehow you can find logic to justify things you never thought you would do.  

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 4:24:14 PM   
Blaakmaan


Posts: 374
Joined: 5/21/2007
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Well, perhaps this community ought to be less judgmental, because there are an awful lot of vanilla folks out there who hold an awful lot of negative judgments about this community of people and what we do.

Consider the kind of judgments the average CM member would hear if his or her profile and preferences were listed on a vanilla website, like Yahoo Personals (assuming they would allow the profile to even be posted, which they wouldn't)?

How can you decry their judgmentalism, yet feel so free to be just as judgmental yourselves?

And how can you (the collective you, not you in particular), with your darkside and kinks,  feel morally superior to anyone else such that you feel privileged to preach to them about what they should and should not do in their lives?

If race play is ok, I don't see how you can vilify anybody for anything they choose to do.

If it's live-and-let-live, then live and let live!  That applies to married people, too!



(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 4:35:46 PM   
frustratinggirl


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/13/2007
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So because we have kinks we should turn a blind eye to when we see something happening thats hurting an innocent party? (and you know what I mean by hurt in this case)


< Message edited by frustratinggirl -- 11/21/2007 4:37:25 PM >

(in reply to Blaakmaan)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 5:04:07 PM   
Blaakmaan


Posts: 374
Joined: 5/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissBathsheba

quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Are you saying it's cowardly to stay "trapped" in a marriage when you feel it's the right thing to do even when you'd rather be gone?


No, I am saying that it's cowardly to be trapped in a marriage that you don't want and to sit there and say that 'I am paying for it now". He's placing the blame on his wife when it should be placed on both of them.



I'll grant you that, in most if not all relationships, there's enough blame to go around. No one is perfect and no one is entirely blameless in nearly any situation one can think of. I guess I'm thinking of marriages where perhaps one partner is staying for the good of the other even though they have no desire to for their own sake. In a scenario, say, where one partner becomes physically paralyzed and sexual contact is no longer possible. After years, I'm sure that could wear their partner down. Yet, they do not wish to abandon said partner but they do need some physical/sexual contact that he/she is either unwilling or unable to provide. I don't think it makes a man cowardly to stay in a marriage like that and I don't think it makes him a sleazebag to seek some on the side. I'm sorry, but I just don't. And I don't think it would be right to announce to his wife the TRUTH: " Gee honey, I'm sticking with you and all but I gotta have me some so I'm going to come to you truthfully and tell you that I'm going out to fuck someone else." To me that's an instance of using the "truth" as a weapon. It may ease his conscience to tell her this great, freeing "truth," but it would probably crush her. In an instance like that, I think he's noble for staying with her, justified in seeking physical comfort somewhere else as long as the other person knows his marital situation, and a better man for not clubbing his dear wife over the head with his "truth." There are instances in which deception is kinder than the blunt truth..............luci
quote:

ORIGINAL: breastbonder

Yeah I didn't mean for that to come off sleazy.  In fact I think she is pretty much blameless, which makes it harder.  I knew I was opening myself up to some bashing here but wanted to seek out some opinions anyway.  The wierd thing is I can't say I disagree with alot of what has been said here.



While I can see how some might view having a secret d/s relationship on the side as actually being kind to the spouse (versus divorce) especially in the case where most everything else is good in the marriage, what about the following possibilities to consider:

- he falls in love with the other woman or she with him and then what to do? 
- the wife finds out that he is involved with someone else and has to deal with betrayal which is worse than divorce in my mind
- it is not fair to not allow your wife to have the choice to seek someone that loves her and is able to be completely faithful and fulfilled by her
- risk of pregnancy, STDs 

A married man seeking a submissive is looking for someone to serve him and be completely dedicated to his needs secretly - this isn't a one time fling or no strings attached - at least I personally don't see how a dom/sub relationship could be, but I could be wrong.  Speaking from personal experience (unfortunately) I would recommend that subs not get involved with a married Master that is cheating - you are just setting yourself up for heartbreak or to break the spouse's heart - neither of which are attractive to me as someone who likes to make people happy ...

The reason why freeing the truth might crush her is because the wife cannot accept the spouse for who he really is and what kind of a marriage and lifelong partnership is that?  This isnt the same thing as not liking watching sports or not wanting to go to the opera, being a Dominant is part of a man's core in my opinion, and as someone said earlier, why live a lie? 




There's--I don't know how else to characterize it--an arrogance about this community (at least insofar as the community is reflected in the posts on this website) that apparently believes that this community lives by some superior code of honor, truthfulness and respect for others.

I think that's an illusion.  Or is it a delusion?

There are lots of posts on this very site about the deception that goes on everyday in the BDSM community!

People in the BDSM community are not inferior to, or superior to, anybody else, anywhere else.  Different from, yes.  Superior to, no.

Not intellectually, financially, or morally superior.  Not superior in any way.

If you believe that because you can honestly state your kinks and your preferences and what you're looking for on a CM post, and live out your various fantasies and your darker desires instead of running from them (like most people do), that means you're living "truth" while others are "living a lie," I couldn't disagree more.

People in this community live lives full of lies, just like everybody else on this planet.

If the original poster is "living a lie," he's in no way different than pretty much everybody alive.

(in reply to MissBathsheba)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 5:07:24 PM   
MasterofScyn


Posts: 141
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline
No, no matter what the situation is, morals or not, they don't get easier at all. One white lie or (pass). Leads to another one. I was lieing to everyone around me for at least 10 yrs of my life.. I'm not a know it all.. But I do know from experience that lies no matter how you want to put it, lead to no where but heart ache. Let alone if someone catches you in a lie and tells your partner about it. I understand what your saying, I thought about it that way to.. in the end though.. Normally no way out cept for the truth. Lies almost tore me away from my dad he caught me in a huge lie... me being the only brat... it wasn't easy what so ever.
 
It's an experience I don't ever wish to repeat. All my skeletons are out of the closet and I have been given a new life. I don't plan on screwing this one up. So becareful of how you think about things like this. It might be simple at first, later down the road you'll think this is easy I can do this. Then WAM.. your trapped in a web full lies.
 
And honestly I was with a married man. I was 16/17 and he was like 33 at the time. 2 yrs of not seeing eachother, he ended up in jail for drugs or some such, then while he was in jail, his brother told his wife about me.... Imagine that blowing up in your face.


quote:

ORIGINAL: breastbonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterofScyn

quote:

And lies get easier the more you tell them


And this ..... I have no idea where you get this from.... Lies will snowball.. They get harder.. specially when your lieing to multiple people. Trying to figure out who knows what, what lie you told who.. what was the last lie you said so you can keep that story..

What world did you come from? .... Lies get easier... i'd like to know who told you that.  Him Maybe?

 
Scyn ~


No, I understand what you mean.  My point was if you have any morals at all (not lying, cheating, etc), but decide to give yourself a pass and break them due to some "special" circumstances, it will probably become easier each subsequent time you need a pass.



< Message edited by MasterofScyn -- 11/21/2007 5:10:03 PM >


_____________________________

May the road rise to meet you
May the wind always be at your back
May the sun always shine against your face
May the rain fall softly upon your fields
Until we meet again
May the spirits hold you in the palm of their hands

(in reply to breastbonder)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 5:15:32 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

People in this community live lives full of lies, just like everybody else on this planet.

If the original poster is "living a lie," he's in no way different than pretty much everybody alive.



Most lies don't deny someone their right to make an informed decision regarding who they sleep with.

If you want to cheat, fine. Go for it. But if you continue to sleep with your wife you are denying her that. It is a huge part of what I find so unethical about it.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Blaakmaan)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 8:38:25 PM   
ItzKat


Posts: 86
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline
I am in an LRT with a married man.  He was very honest and up front about the situation.  However the difference is, his wife knows.  I was never asked to lie to her or hide from anyone.  We have been together over ten years now.  It works for us. 

I suspect that most subs would like to  be your only one.  If there is a wife involved, they have little or no reason to invest time and energy in a relationship.  Also, if you are honest about being married, but want them to hide it and never call or anything, of course they would be mad.  How can you ask them to trust you while asking them to lie to someone else?

_____________________________

~Kat

That which does not kill us... can really mess up our hair!

(in reply to breastbonder)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/21/2007 9:02:09 PM   
Lancealittle


Posts: 18
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline
This is exactly why my wife and I discussed it and she picked up a sub :P The problem is I get lumped in with cheaters or "I married vanilla and want sprinkles". I married a Dom and I am a Dom, we both want sprinkles :P

If you're wife doesn't know what you're doing, stop or get a divorce. Plain and simple, what you want isnt a submissive and what you wan't isnt fair to any submissive or your wife. No life works when it's built around a lie. Either clear it up with your wife and let her know you need other things then be open an honest with your potential submissives and your wife, or leave her and find what you really want.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/23/2007 12:45:02 AM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

No, the most unacceptable thing a person can confess to on here is to say that they are married, looking outside the marriage, and their spouse does not know.



I realize you're directing your commentary to the OP, but trust me; there are a WHOLE lot of other things that are worse, and not just by your standards.

Just a bit of food for thought.  Carry on.


_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/23/2007 2:46:20 AM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterofScyn

quote:

And lies get easier the more you tell them


And this ..... I have no idea where you get this from.... Lies will snowball.. They get harder.. specially when your lieing to multiple people. Trying to figure out who knows what, what lie you told who.. what was the last lie you said so you can keep that story..
 
Scyn ~


I'm not sure that they're any harder to tell... simply harder to substantiate. I'm sure the first time I told a lie my parents knew right off the bat -- and likely tried to explain to me why it wasn't okay to do so.

However, when I was a teen I could look them in the eye and tell them I was going to a friend's house when I was actually going to a party with a few friends. And I knew by their expressions that they couldn't tell the difference.

Lies, as we practice telling them, become quite easy to dish out. ("No, that dress doesn't make you look fat." Your ass makes you look fat!) But they do tend to snowball out of control.

The devil's in the details. "What movie did you see? When and where was it playing? Did you get anything from the concession stand? Did you like the ending? How was the acting?"

I shouldn't post things at 2:45. I get all sorts of long-winded about trivial things.

As for the OP, I applaud him for his honesty... and for coming back to face the various flames amidst the advice he was offered.

OP, julietsierra said it all perfectly. I'm sure at this hour I'd have botched it. Her eloquent advice is very sound. I hope that you and yours find a way to pleasantly resolve this matter.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to MasterofScyn)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/23/2007 3:30:45 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

There's--I don't know how else to characterize it--an arrogance about this community (at least insofar as the community is reflected in the posts on this website) that apparently believes that this community lives by some superior code of honor, truthfulness and respect for others.

I think that's an illusion.  Or is it a delusion?

There are lots of posts on this very site about the deception that goes on everyday in the BDSM community!

People in the BDSM community are not inferior to, or superior to, anybody else, anywhere else.  Different from, yes.  Superior to, no.

Not intellectually, financially, or morally superior.  Not superior in any way.

If you believe that because you can honestly state your kinks and your preferences and what you're looking for on a CM post, and live out your various fantasies and your darker desires instead of running from them (like most people do), that means you're living "truth" while others are "living a lie," I couldn't disagree more.

People in this community live lives full of lies, just like everybody else on this planet.

If the original poster is "living a lie," he's in no way different than pretty much everybody alive.



You're right Blaakmann. People do lie. People on this very site do lie. But when you say this, I keep coming back to what I'd be willing to bet most of us have heard at one point or another in our lives: "Just because everyone is doing it, does that mean you should too?"

My question isn't "is it ok if everyone is doing it?" My question is "WHY?"

You see, to me, at a very base level, I believe that married people should be, at the very least, respectful of each other. We're not talking here of buying an expensive dress and fudging a little on what we tell our spouses the price really was. We're not talking about telling wives their asses don't look fat in the dress they're wearing. We're talking about the very foundations of intimacy between husbands and wives, and to me, that's something you don't mess around with.

Here's the thing... when one spouse lies to the other about cheating, they are clearly sending the message that they don't respect their spouses. Each person out there - you, me, everyone - deserves the right to be able to decide on the risks they wish to take when it comes to their health. When a husband or wife cheats on the other, they take that right away from their spouse. It doesn't matter how careful you or I might be. We simply do NOT have the right to make those decisions for our spouses. THEY deserve the right to be fully informed regarding things that may directly impact their health. When a person lies about this, they are saying, even if they don't realize it, that the most significant person in their lives doesn't have that right. They are saying that their sexual needs are more important than their spouse's right to make his or her own decisions regarding his or her own body. And to me, that's the ultimate in disrespect.

Now, if the husband or wife is fully informed and is saying that they are fine with the activities of their spouse, then that's quite another thing. But simply saying "hey, everyone's doing it, so breastbonder can do it too and people shouldn't be so judgmental" is not really anything more than providing a weak excuse for behavior that is less than upstanding.

And I do recognize that there are many people who have their own reasons for doing this, but honestly,  while the reasons may sound valid, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Why wouldn't a husband or wife respect his or her spouse more than that?

The logic to me is pretty simple:
If cheating and lying most likely leads to divorce and having the hard conversations up front might not, and if both people in the marriage don't want divorce, then even if it's scary, doesn't it seem to be the better way to just get it out in the open?

Everyone may be lying out there, but wouldn't it feel better if you could have the life you want without the lies?

I, for one, am very impressed with the men and women who have the tough conversations and arrive at mutually agreed upon ways of doing things so that each person gets what they want while maintaining the marriage they've both entered into.

juliet

(in reply to Blaakmaan)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Married Conundrum - 11/23/2007 3:37:42 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
I believe that what you percieve as 'community' couldn't be any further from the truth.  There isn't a community - and many people are still in the closet (as so to speak) anyway.  Besides - Practising BDSM is a very selfish pursuit - so why expect a community of understanding when most things are 'me-me-me'?  Judgement is paramount in any relationship, including BDSM - particularly BDSM - due to the risks involved in such.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________


RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Blaakmaan)
Profile   Post #: 119
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