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RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 10:57:04 AM   
TwiztdErotic


Posts: 155
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		First of all, let me just say how ridiculous I find it that despite the fact that I've very clearly expressed my intentions, many of you seem hell bent on finding an ulterior motive. Understand that I am an adult of sound mind who has no reason, whatsoever, to lie to myself or anyone else as to why I do anything that I do. The fact that some of you are incapable of accepting this reflects your own issues, not mine. With that being said, allow me to retort;
quote:

Nobody was asking you questions in those cases. I was discussing puppy slaves v. slaves with another person and you immediately decided we were calling pupply slaves absurd. Your punishment was evidently not effective as it did not get you the behavior you wanted nor does it seem to have taught her anything. Nobody had called your punishment brutal, you decided we thought that because we didn't agree with your course of action.

What I meant by a puppy slave being absurd is that, even though it was quite obvious what her role was, some of you were unable to figure it out. To me, that would signify that the idea of combining the two was so ridiculous that only those who are capable of viewing things in the most abstract terms would be able to draw that conclusion.

I didn't say that anyone had called her punishment brutal. The reaction to it, however, was a little bit ridiculous considering every suggestion on the matter really was no different than what was done. A reaction that I took to be totally over the top, made it seem as though the punishment was a brutal one, when, in fact, it was not.

The problem with her has never been learning. she may learn anything I choose to teach her, changing her actions as a result of what she's learned is the problem.

quote:

Ignoring her wouldn't be rewarding her. Rewarding her would have been getting her out of the bed and making her service you. Punishment doesn't have to be immediate with people, one way a puppy slave is easier than a real puppy. If we were in your situation and he wanted to punish me, Valyraen would let me go back to sleep and wake up on my own time. When I got up, I would find that he was busy and would not interact with me easily. He would not accept service from me either until we discussed what had happened and he felt I had learned something.

If that's how he chooses to deal with you, that's his right. For my tastes, it seems much too passive.

quote:

No, but you were very clearly saying "Those who have given advice and disagree don't know a damn thing about TPE because I know what TPE is, this is what it is and if you don't agree with that, you don't know what you are talking about".

Actually, I was very clearly saying that I didn't wish to hear from people who may not have an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.
If you choose to put words in my mouth that's your issue, the fact remains that it simply wasn't what was said. I received many messages on the other side who were very supportive and warned me to just ignore the majority of you as you did not understand TPE.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 11:09:54 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

quote:

Nobody was asking you questions in those cases. I was discussing puppy slaves v. slaves with another person and you immediately decided we were calling pupply slaves absurd. Your punishment was evidently not effective as it did not get you the behavior you wanted nor does it seem to have taught her anything. Nobody had called your punishment brutal, you decided we thought that because we didn't agree with your course of action.

What I meant by a puppy slave being absurd is that, even though it was quite obvious what her role was, some of you were unable to figure it out. To me, that would signify that the idea of combining the two was so ridiculous that only those who are capable of viewing things in the most abstract terms would be able to draw that conclusion.


As I'm sure you know, the term slave can mean completely different things to different people. The term puppy slave is even less cut and dry since it is a combination of the two, something that will vary with each person. As for people reacting as though your punishment was brutal, I simply disagree.

quote:


quote:

Ignoring her wouldn't be rewarding her. Rewarding her would have been getting her out of the bed and making her service you. Punishment doesn't have to be immediate with people, one way a puppy slave is easier than a real puppy. If we were in your situation and he wanted to punish me, Valyraen would let me go back to sleep and wake up on my own time. When I got up, I would find that he was busy and would not interact with me easily. He would not accept service from me either until we discussed what had happened and he felt I had learned something.

If that's how he chooses to deal with you, that's his right. For my tastes, it seems much too passive.

You may find it passive but it is effective. It teachs me that while I got sleep, I'm not getting what I really want - which is to serve him and have a happy relationship with him. It may have worked with your now ex-girl. Punishments really aren't about what you think is passive or aggressive, they are about what works with the particular dynamic you have. If you only want to use a particular style of punishment, it is up to you to find the girl who will respond to that.

quote:



quote:

No, but you were very clearly saying "Those who have given advice and disagree don't know a damn thing about TPE because I know what TPE is, this is what it is and if you don't agree with that, you don't know what you are talking about".

Actually, I was very clearly saying that I didn't wish to hear from people who may not have an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.
If you choose to put words in my mouth that's your issue, the fact remains that it simply wasn't what was said. I received many messages on the other side who were very supportive and warned me to just ignore the majority of you as you did not understand TPE.


Of course, we don't understand because we don't agree. The dynamics of the situation, as you explained it, is that your needs are the only one that counts, what she wants and needs don't matter. She has no rights and must obey your every whim, but she does have the right to leave.

However, that doesn't take into account the fact that you still trained her to behave one way and got mad at her, the subject of the OP. Treat her for peeing on the carpet and she will. That is entirely on your hands. It is quite possible that she wasn't suited to a TPE, that she wasn't suited for d/s and it is also quite possible that you simply did not inspire her to submit. There is much more to a m/s, d/s, whatever term you like, relationship than simply sticking a dominant and a submissive together.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 11/27/2007 11:12:45 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to TwiztdErotic)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 11:15:34 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
Unskilled submissives often bring relationship patterns that are destructive.  In this case it is the need for control/dominance but not really understanding what she is asking for nor how she is asking.

Rather than saying “today I need to be treated like a dog” or “today, can I be a spoiled little girl” or whatever, she acts out to provoke the sort of reaction she unconsciously needs.  So when she acts pissy in the morning it is about provoking the “stern master” syndrome.”  Classic topping from the bottom, which as a concept I have no problem with, but in this case, because it is unconscious, neither party can understand what is going on.  Poor guy tries to give her the uber dom she wanted in the morning and she doesn’t even know she now wants “loving daddy dom” and so again they fight.

Until I wrote this I didn’t realize this is the exact description of my first collared submissive and I.  I knew this thread resonated with me and why I am so sympathetic to the guy.  I spent three years playing yo-yo with this woman, I couldn’t tell you how many times we broke up and got back together again.  Unfortunately for me, nobody that I knew in San Francisco knew enough to help me.  Hmmmm, going to have to think about that one for a bit…BSB wants me to go into counseling instead of business and perhaps I do have a skill I am selling short.

Anyway, you can’t make her self aware of what she is doing, she is probably too young to get it and it takes professional counseling in most cases to gain that sort of change.  However, what you CAN do is realize what is going on when she provokes and or reacts to you.  See past her words and actions and try and see into her subconscious.  She wants you to be in control, doesn’t know how to ask and without realizing it, provokes you to get the reaction she wants.  She is a good girl when she wants daddy, and is a bad girl when she wants UBER dom.  Reward her when she is being a good girl is easy.  Dealing with the bad girl is hard.

When children do things to get a reaction, they are trying to manipulate you, good parents don’t react.  Swear words are perfect examples, when kids want to get a reaction, they say “shit” or “fuck” and get to feel powerful as mommy and daddy freak out.  A skilled parent says “those words bore me” which skillfully differentiates “bad word” from “bad kid” and doesn’t let the kid/swear word have any power over them.  They then quickly change/introduce something that the kid does enjoy (careful not to make that a reward, so not ice cream but perhaps a board game?) and then gives the kid praise for doing something right.

Same goes for corner time for a manipulative girl who wants to feel master’s hands yanking her around.  DON’T let her feed her needs that way.  Try and figure out WHY she needs the control, is she feeling out of control, does she need it to feel your love, why?  Figure that out and later, outside of the manipulative space, when she is being good, a chance to ASK for that sort of control. 

I know that is going to feel passive but imagine how you will feel if months from now, the petty acting out has lessened greatly, she comes to you and begs to be used?  Smile and realize “I have truly trained this woman” and you can look back and shake your head at your past and hold your head high with pride. 

(in reply to TwiztdErotic)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 11:26:04 AM   
TwiztdErotic


Posts: 155
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		thank you for your insight, Michael. It is very much appreciated, although it may need to be read a few times over to be fully absorbed.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 12:31:14 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

BSB wants me to go into counseling instead of business(as a profession) and perhaps I do have a skill I am selling short.


lol.. just wanted to clarify that...


_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 12:55:35 PM   
daddyncherry


Posts: 656
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		IMO i think from the OP (waaaay back there) that he was in the right...hell i have had vanilla partners wake me for sex and it was never ever an issue...middle of the night, ass crack of dawn..whenever...but that is me.

As a would be slave i think it was wrong of her to refuse and throw attitude at him...i think he was right to make her go into the corner...and as for the whole father being there thing...What do they have paper walls? Glass walls? ....i'm sorry but that is a dumb reason IMO to not have sex....It may mean a ball gag or something but still....

The good thing about this thread is that it actually brought to light the real issues in their relationship...not the superficial ones brought up in the OP...but the cause/effect kind of stuff that is the meat of the problem.

i was like her....a long time ago...and if they are both willing to learn maybe there is hope...she needs help...he needs to realize the whole NEED situation....maybe she is not for him and he not for her......but maybe he is bright enough to have learned from some of the insight on this thread.




_____________________________

Hugs,
cherry

Walking through life, and fear with a smile on my face.
Walking directly through the eye of the hurricane...and through to the other side..without fear....realizing everything will be okay. :)

being obedient 1day at a time

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 1:33:21 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		Again, she enjoys being made to do things. When she acted out, he made her do things. He rewarded her. He trained her to out act by rewarding her. As a puppy slave, he basically trained her to pee on the carpet.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to daddyncherry)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 1:49:41 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I have been following this thread....and all I can think of is..you can't save the whole world. People will learn what they need to learn....or they won't.

Jeff


Exactly, and the Mod has spoken and is a volunteer here, so cut him/her some slack and let it die would you guys?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 2:56:25 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

quote:

Isn't that why this thread exists to begin with?

Aside from my main goal, which was to posture, of course.

Now THAT is funny!
Atleast you have a sense of humor!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to TwiztdErotic)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 3:02:57 PM   
littlegrlatheart


Posts: 12
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		As someone who is also groggy early in the morning and mentally unable to grasp even simple tasks,  it's much easier if you just jump on top and do what you want, then everybody wins.
Service requires a clear mind and a strong focus on the Dom and his needs. Waking someone from a heavy sleep and expecting instant alertness is a bit like expecting her to serve you after she has drunk two bottles of wine.

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 3:37:32 PM   
kinkypuppy2


Posts: 345
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline 		Wait tell you both are grown a bit and she does NOT live with parents.

_____________________________

See nic "Kinkypupper" also as "slvseeker" As I cannot reply to any posts or log into collarchat under that name I had to create this profile.

(in reply to TwiztdErotic)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 7:44:58 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Christ...I am getting wet from all this water.

I'm not sure the liquid you boys have been exchanging is water.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 9:34:53 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		dc,
you crack me up!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 10:33:50 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Actually in this specific incident, I'd be hard pressed to say she was acting out as a subconscious motive to get pushed down and forced.  I'm much more likely to say she was just tired and pissed and wanted to get left alone. 

I'm sure she DOES have a pattern of acting out inappropriately and lacks decent communication skills, I just don't think this particular incident is an example of that.  Even the best communicator in the world with years of solid relationships can have a grumpy moment (ahem like me).

Sometimes the answers really aren't deep.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/27/2007 10:33:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have only read a few pages of this thread... 6 to be exact... here is my belated two cents

Sleep deprivation is a serious issue in this country. Most people are wandering around sleep deprived. I am one of the lucky few that gets the rest I need. I know what it is like not to be as fortunate as I am now, and life was hard for me during that time in my life. I had trouble waking up, I was cranky when I woke up... actually abusive is closer to the truth of it. My family cringed when I first would wake. I lived like this through my son's early childhood because I often worked all night with maybe only 4 hours of sleep about 4 nights a week, and I ran after a toddler all day. I was miserable. In fact I was convinced that I was not a morning person because of this...

Now I awake before my alarm goes off. I can tell myself to awaken at any hour and I will all on my own. I get lots of rest and even nap if I feel like it. I do not limit my hours of sleep, and if my Daddy wanted to use me, I would be more than happy to sacrifice my usual sleep for him occasionally. Keyword here is ocassionally. If he began to demand I lose sleep just to please him sexually every night I would think he did not love me or value me much. Chronic sleep deprivation causes accidents, and not just on the highways. I cannot imagine he would ever do that to me...

In fact this entire issue of waking up someone that needs rest an hour early to show some sort of dominance does not say "dominant" to me. My Daddy would have dealt with my smart mouth before sending me to bed, and he probably would not have awakened me at all. He tends to respect that people have internal clocks.

I am one of the only people he has ever been with that was a true morning person, I am annoyingly happy in the morning now. I am as cheerful and as chipper as they come.. he has to tell me to knock off the good mood. He is not "grumpy", but he is a quiet guy in the morning. He knows this about me though, I will be awake to get him off to work even if the alarm is not set, and that makes me much more useful than a blow job in the middle of the night

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TwiztdErotic)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/28/2007 12:38:27 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		Okay, I think that after reading this whole thread, I want to chime in.  Page 12, no less.

All right twisted, among some things that I noticed:

You were disparaging of the folks that did not "get" that this young lady was a "puppy slave" right off the bat.  Now, in your posts you never put those two words togeather until there had been a few posts suggesting the combination.

That is fine (that you did not, but liked the term, although your attitude is asinine), except, have the two of you TALKED about your roles?  Who is going to do what and take care of this and that?

I noticed that you mentioned that how much sleep she gets does not factor in.  Sometimes she is cheerful after a few hours, and sometimes she is grumpy still after twelve hours. 

Have you charted this?

A sleep study may be in order.  A person can go for many days with reduced sleep, but then need to recharge.

You said that her father being in the other room was not a factor.

Are you sure of this?  While him sleeping there may not be an issue, perhaps whatever brought him there was.

This was her apartment, correct?  She may feel less subly in her own space.  This should be respected.  If this had been your space, that you were paying for, with your job, I would think that the dynamic would be different.

I also noticed that you wanted the Mod to shut your thread down.  You could have easily done this by ceasing your responses.  The debates about what you really meant would have stopped.

Oh, and refering to Mad Rabbit as "bunny," really, that is just not done.  It shows that you want a pissing contest.  In otherwords juvenile and boring.

Now MR, in a lot of ways is juvenile, but he is never boring.

I hope that this has given you some help.  Because you really need it.  

Oh, and BTW, I DO live a 24/7 lifestyle, but I would never treat my subly one as you have treated yours.

Take care and be well.

Best,

Aylee



< Message edited by Aylee -- 11/28/2007 12:41:12 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/28/2007 8:11:50 AM   
MasterLehr1


Posts: 10
Joined: 10/26/2007
Status: offline 		Even a vanilla relationship between two passionate individuals can be hard at times.  Now introduce the Total Power Exchange element, and you have a challenge that seems insurmountable.  This is without doubt a tough union to make work. 

The biggest hurdle for the slave is overcoming what I call the "fairness" issue.  Most of us have grown up in a democratic society where each individual has the right to make their own decisions affecting their life.  And even though a slave in a TPE may choose to give up those rights, there are still issues of fairness that are ingrained and hard to overcome. Yet, its not an impossible ideal....a good example is the process that a military recruit goes through in boot camp.  It is made clear early on that  you voluntarily give up many of your rights as a citizen in favor of service to your country. You either conform to the rules or find yourself in serious trouble.

Having been in a long term TPE before, I believe that a Master has the right to expect service even in the early morning hours, especially if you are calling it 24/7.  My slave was not a morning person, so I often encountered the scenario you described.  I'd wake her after 9 hours of sleep with gentle words and a cup of coffee, only to have her react with anger.  Her challenge to this stems from an attitude of "fairness"...ie., "I don't like getting up at this hour, and it's not fair asking me to do this."  It was a visceral reaction on her part that was hard to correct. 

I began to prioritize my expectations in these situations.  If my slave would complain, yet STILL get out of bed in accordance with my instructions, then I felt I was still getting service. In my case, I decided to postpone the idea of "service with grace", and try to focus on the concept of her just doing my bidding, however ugly and labored it would be.  In most cases, I would leave the cup of coffee by her bed and leave her alone.  Within 15 minutes my slave would appear up and about.  Sometimes I would even get a  smile and an apology for being grumpy.  To me, compliance was  good enough...we could always work on the grace aspects later.

I'm sure I will get criticized for making such a compromise, but often a Master has to tailor the dynamics of their relationship to the person they are involved with, if you want to keep that slave over the long term.

As always, its up to the Master to decide the structure of a TPE, and the slave simply needs to decide if they are willing to work to support that model.  I believe this is what you have done...setting standards of conduct and trying to enforce them.   The frustration you both feel  about making it work is obvious and completely understandable.

But here is the upshot:  If the Master values the model above the success of the relationship and the slave isn't willing to conform, then the TPE should be suspended or dissolved.  Reverting back to a more simple D/s realtionship is certainly an option.  If, however, the Master values the union over his model, then a compromise must be made.  Its a difficult to choice to make, but as Masters we sign up for this challenge.

Like I said...a very tough kind lifestyle to make work.  Unfortunately, the number of couples who do so are very rare.

< Message edited by MasterLehr1 -- 11/28/2007 8:21:47 AM >

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/28/2007 11:06:44 AM   
TwiztdErotic


Posts: 155
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		Hello all,

This is the puppy slave in question and I would like to clarify a few things. I was aware of what I was getting myself into. Master did not pull any wool over my eyes nor lie to me about my role and what was expected. In this certain scenario I was completely and absolutely wrong with my reaction. Though, things could have been handled in a different matter on both ends (and he has taken responsibility for any and all mistakes) I again, was fully aware of what was expected out of me, and waking me at 5am is not an unusual thing for him to do. In all honesty, I do not feel nor think that the way he handles/handled me has been out of line or even considered dangerous, abusive, or extreme. If he was to pull me out of bed by my hair and beat me with a cane until i cried, then by all means, call his behavior obscene. If anyone is to blame, I would certainly blame myself. I promised something (TPE) and did not deliver. My reasons for this are personal, and I should have been honest with both myself and him, before I proceeded. I went into this half way blind and knowing I was unable to take on any challenge at this current time in my life. Do I blame him for releasing me or growing cold and insensitive? Not at all. I would have done the same thing. Why would I keep giving an effort, when I am continually disappointed and my effort is not appreciated nor returned.

I feel a few of you have taken this entire thread a bit too far, and a bit too personally. If he was as ignorant as some have made him out to be, then he would have never posted the thread to begin with. In my personal opinion he sought out advice or a problem he was having difficulty with. For a Dom to humble himself enough to ask for advice shows room for growth and a desire to learn. the personal relationship with him and i is just that; personal and private. This thread shares just a portion of our relationship. there are events and emotions that all of you are unaware of, therefore you cannot even begin to judge or make an educated guess on what kind of Dom he may or may not be.

And for those of you who like to twist the plot in order to create unnecessary drama, it was my choice to post this on the thread.

Thank you.

~puppy

(in reply to MasterLehr1)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/28/2007 11:11:07 AM   
heartsemerge


Posts: 29
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		oops. I meant to post that on my account. That was mistakenly posted under his account.

(in reply to TwiztdErotic)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: open for response until 7am est - 11/28/2007 11:34:29 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		Okayyyyy. . .

One of them is in Massachusettes, and the other is in Connecticut.  Which is just great, I only bring it up because while those states are small and next to each other, she states that it not unusual to be woken at 5am. 

And puppy is a switch looking to explore her domly side. 

I can see why this relationship is having issues. 



_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to heartsemerge)
Profile   Post #: 240
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