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RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 9:16:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

That would mean then that there is a difference between conceptual slavery, literal slavery, definitive slavery, legal slavery and systematic slavery?

Perhaps. I can only say my heart is enslaved to him, which makes me his slave. If you want to call that role playing, that's your perogative. It changes nothing about what my reality is, or anyone else's reality for that matter.

And Irish Mist, I agree with you about the extremes that people take such arguments, making them a bit ridiculous. For some reason people are dumbfounded when I mention my chainsaw kink....

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 9:20:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

So while I recognize that your personal defintion seems to rest on those two parameters, quite literally the concept and definition of slavery has nothing to do with legal status or systems.

That would mean then that there is a difference between conceptual slavery, literal slavery, definitive slavery, legal slavery and systematic slavery?

I am in too good a mood to argue definitions. Master bought me 7 gorgeous pairs of panties and ordered me to throw all my old ones out!

Congrats on the new underwear - I assumed you had posted thoughts because you were interested in other perspectives. But just to be clear what I was saying is that slavery is not defined legally or by societal recognition.

C~

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(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 10:21:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

As a volunteer slave, i have the same rights that every free, non-felon, American has, including the right to surrender my rights, in order to have the sort of intimate relationship that i enjoy with my Master.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David
And by the same token, you have the right to reclaim those rights that you surrender if you so choose. Meaning that those rights are never permanently surrendered, even if that is your intention to do so. They are only suspended until such time as you wish to reclaim them (which may be never).

That is not a meaningless distinction.

John

This is very true, John. The decision to surrender or exercise my various rights has always been my choice. Just as my right to decide if, when and, to whom i would submit to has always been my choice. There have been many times in my life that i made the choice not to exercise certain rights. For example, i have both the right to free speech and the right to remain silent. Sometimes, i have chosen to not exercise my free speech right, in order to avoid a confrontation or, to stay out of trouble or, to avoid hurting another's feelings or, because i was ordered to keep quiet by someone who i had determined had the right to tell me what to do such as, a sergeant or an officer when i was in the Army and now, by my Master. Then again, there have been times that i did exercise my right to free speech and wished i hadn't because there were negative consequences that resulted from my opening my mouth and exercising my right to put my foot in it.

Rights aren't obligations and i can choose to exercise them or not.

i also have the right to self-determination and to decide for myself what sort of life i wish to live. And, what i have determined is best for me is to be owned by the particular Man i agreed to belong to and to be His kinky, masochist, domestic slave, without restrictions. Of course, i do also have the right to be unfaithful to my commitment to my Master and to walk out the door. However, that action would violate the very essence of my personal ethics and would destroy my feelings of self-worth. But, i have that right, if i ever choose to exercise it.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 12/13/2007 10:27:19 PM >

(in reply to Rover)

RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 10:33:11 PM

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quote:

If you want to call that role playing, that's your perogative. It changes nothing about what my reality is, or anyone else's reality for that matter.

You're right it doesnt change your reality one iota, the reality is (whether you want them or not) you still have rights... and that is what this thread (and my posts) is about.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 10:46:50 PM

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quote:

But just to be clear what I was saying is that slavery is not defined legally or by societal recognition.

I am not trying to define slavery.
I am saying that because slavery is not legally recognized, you have rights, because the law does not recognize your right to surrender your rights, which in and of itself is still a right, so even if you want to exercise your right to surrender your rights you are acknowledging that you have the right to do that which is still you exercising your right...

< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/13/2007 10:48:27 PM >

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RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 11:04:59 PM

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Slavery is role playing? Yes, it is. It is pretending that one person has absolute power and control over another. This is the lifestyle version of slavery. And many people enjoy it and find true happiness and nirvana-like bliss. But it is in no way legally binding and if the slave wishes to move on, she can.

Which can lead to the other type of slavery. Master lets her go but says to no one in particular “She will be mine. Oh, yes. She will be mine”. And as the lightning flash lights up the scarred half of his face he concocts his nefarious plan.

Weeks later, as the repatriated ex-slave heads to her car from a hard night’s clubbing, a shadow falls across her. She sees a face reflected in the window. That face! She turns to scream but the tazer to her neck silences her.

She wakes, naked in a small cell. Black iron bars surround her. She sees a small cot. A small steel toilet and a sink. On the floor, against a row of bars sit two large steel bowls with what appears to be water in one and crunchy puppy food in the other.

Master has been busy these last few weeks. He has built and furnished her a cell.

She hears him approaching from the darkness.

“So, you thought you could leave, did you? Well, you did. At first you got away. And then I built all of this and now you’re here. To stay! Forever!” he bellows in his husky Canadian drawl.

She gasps but the words are like ash on her tongue.

You promised that you’d always be my slave and I built all this”, arms swinging around the room “to help you keep that promise.”

“And, you know what? You will never leave me again bitch!”

He goes on to tell her that she will be caged or locked at all times. When he has vanilla company upstairs, she will be down here in her basement cell. She shouldn’t bother screaming for help as the basement is sound proofed wall to ceiling. Any attempt to escape will be punished severely. “Your suffering will be legendary!” As usual, he doesn’t sound like Pinhead at all. She will eat when he feeds her. Sleep when he tells her. Breathe when he tells her.

She will learn to appreciate him. Not like before when that website advised him to printout and sign that consensual slavery contract which, by the way, meant nothing in retrospect.

“I will use you when I please, how I please and where I please! You will speak of these rights no more!”

“When I say where I mean on or in your body, not some other physical location. You get that right? Because all my torture stuff’s down here and then there’s the cage. No, can’t move that at all.”

“From now on you will please me orally for hours on end. And you will dance to me from the sound track of The Little Mermaid and if you screw up, you will be punished.”

“And on 3 random nights of the week, I’m going to bring the boys down here to use you for pleasure. And for profit. Your mouth is worth a lot more than you thought. Actually, it’s not just your mouth. I have a whole bunch of whoring activities for you. Hang on, I made a chart.

As the master rummages in his black leather trenchcoat, the once consensual but no longer volunteer slave slinks down to the floor of her cell. Her prison. Her new home. And likely place of business and sobs to no one in particular.

“Oh, why? Why didn’t I listen to those people on the forums? They tried to warn me that Power exchange relationships are personal in nature and that slaves do not submit to everyone, and Dominants do not dominate everyone. They don't have the right to do so (society has not consented to this relationship dynamic with them). Consequently, what "rights" (or limitations on rights) a submissive/slave may have within a relationship is solely what those in the relationship have agreed to. But they have no relevance beyond.”

“An uncle once told me that slavery is role playing. That it was pretending that one person has absolute power and control over another. That this was the lifestyle version of slavery. And many people enjoy it and find true happiness and groovy, purple hazely bliss. But it is in no way legally binding and if the slave wishes to move on, she can. But now I can’t move on because Master Pinhead will never let me go. So I guess, in retrospect, this type of slavery is absolute and the other kind, although seemingly quite real at the time was just pretending. Real slavery sucks.”

Somewhere down the dark hall she hears a voice. It’s singing as if to her “Wanderin' free, wish I could be part of that world.”

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 11:27:59 PM

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quote:

Real slavery sucks.

And includes the possibility of having to fuck yourself with barbed wire... omg I can't get that post out of my head!

(in reply to joshua69)

RE: Slave rights - 12/13/2007 11:33:04 PM

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Yep. And I suppose it would probably be wound tightly around a baseball bat.

Oh, sorry LittleWench. My bad.

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 1:46:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

If you want to call that role playing, that's your perogative. It changes nothing about what my reality is, or anyone else's reality for that matter.

You're right it doesnt change your reality one iota, the reality is (whether you want them or not) you still have rights... and that is what this thread (and my posts) is about.

And I repeat my response to that, as I posted on Page 2 of this thread:

"My State and Country may allow me certain rights as a citizen, but I only exercise those rights which my Master allows me."

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 4:32:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

If you want to call that role playing, that's your perogative. It changes nothing about what my reality is, or anyone else's reality for that matter.

You're right it doesnt change your reality one iota, the reality is (whether you want them or not) you still have rights... and that is what this thread (and my posts) is about.

And I repeat my response to that, as I posted on Page 2 of this thread:

"My State and Country may allow me certain rights as a citizen, but I only exercise those rights which my Master allows me."

and that's another wonderful part of this.....you're chosen to give him that right to you. the relationship exists on the boundaries the two of you have chosen, you're both content within those boundaries (content is HIGHLY under-rated!!!) and that's all that really matters.

kitten...who, for some reason is remembering her granny telling her "the cat can have kittens in the oven, but that doesnt make them a biscuit!"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:06:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

stating that anyone who called themselves a slave was role-playing because based upon your own perception of what slavery is, such a role was unattainable

No that is not what I said at all.

I didn't give my own perception of what slavery is, I stated that slavery is not legally recognized in western countries. My own perception is defined as my own interpretation, I am giving you the facts of the law in western society. It is not legally recognized. You cannot be owned legally. You do have certain unalienable rights. I can choose to experience my reality however I wish (I can choose not to exercise the rights that my country gave me) but that doesn't change the reality (the fact that I have those rights and they may be exercised on my behalf whether I like it or not).

When another posted that he had never seen a "real slave" because women (his context didn't include men) aren't submissive enough.... I made the suggestion that was perhaps because legally there is no such thing as "real ownership". My comment merely places the responsibility of "feeling the slavery" on both parties, not just the submissive. I could not feel like a slave to a man who himself is a slave to the laws of this country.

I read a story online a few nights ago about a western female reporter who did a story on slavery in an arabic country, slavery as in the traditional historic view, non consentual, no rights, legally bought and sold, property. When the story was published in the US there was a huge influx of caucasian women who went over and had themselves kidnapped and sold and turned into slaves because no where in the US could they experience it as fully as they could in a country where it was still a recognized practise. It was a pretty good read.

What I am saying is that due to the reality of slavery not being recognized in our society, if you wish to experience that, it takes a little leap of faith in order to feel as a slave would. I don't think I ever said weal or twue, merely stuck to the legality and reality it defines, not the reality I define.... world of difference. I never onced belittled anyone who chose to identify as a slave. I was not belittling that leap of faith, that roleplaying at all, indeed I said it was wonderful, nuturing, erotic, hot and fulfilling. My Master made me bark like a dog for 15 minutes last night because my barking was not as good as it should be for a pet.... no matter how much I might want it to, that doesn't make me a puppy dog.

Sorry I did not answer this yesterday but I was in too good a mood to dwell into the deep dark recesses of my mind J

Miss Wench

Once again, we are struck by perceptions. I read your post and what I perceived was a person speaking in generalizations about a group of people who think differently than she does. If you were not speaking in that manner, then I apologize. No harm, no foul.

Using what most would see as slavery ( in the sense of legality within the US ); then yes, I will agree with you that slavery is illegal.

However, I tend to think a bit deeper than that. I have been in and have seen relationships that do center themselves in what most would call ‘illegal slavery’. Once again, we are struck with semantics because the core of these relationships was settled by consent by all parties. Now, if you want to pull the card that says ‘well, as soon as consent is pulled, it becomes illegal” that is fine, you go right ahead and pull the card. It does not change the fact that there are some, who once they have given that consent…would never think to take it back. Even at the thought of their own death. Yes, I can place myself in that category. Yes, you could label me unstable for doing so. But it does not change the facts. The mindset is so deeply entrenched that it literally does become impossible to even think about leaving. It’s a fortunate circumstance that those of us who do go this far; know what we are doing, and accept it for what it is. Our way of life. We are not role-playing; we are not playing some game. This is how we choose to live our lives and we do so without care of how others would see it.

You want to say that there is no such thing as real ownership? That is fine if this is what you wish to believe. Once again; perception. Your perception of what ‘real ownership’ pertains to obviously does not match what mine does.

I do believe; and what’s more, I have seen consensual relationships that do constitute real ownership of a person. And before you start stating that there is no way legally to do such a thing; let me say that there is. My late husband and I had a contract of marriage that, in other circumstances, would have been seen as illegal.

I understand where your post is coming from; but you should also understand that for some…this is really what they wished for in their life and they made sure, legally, that they could attain it. It has nothing to do with ‘feeling like a slave’ and everything to do with living as a slave.

Best wishes to you

mist

edited for spelling

edited again to add:

I saw your comment that this thread was not about defining slavery but about slaves having rights. Keeping int hat vein, I will again state what I originally said.

No. Slaves have no rights.

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 12/14/2007 5:12:43 AM >

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RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:20:20 AM

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And I thought it was all semantics...

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:21:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And I thought it was all semantics...

LMAO

semantics
perceptions

take your pick please

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RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:24:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

I stated that slavery is not legally recognized in western countries.
<snip>
I made the suggestion that was perhaps because legally there is no such thing as "real ownership".
<snip>
What I am saying is that due to the reality of slavery not being recognized in our society, if you wish to experience that, it takes a little leap of faith in order to feel as a slave would.

Snipped only for brevity and not to take things out of context.

LW,

Do interactions between two consenting adults have to be legally recognized and defined in order for it to not be role-play? Do interactions between two consenting adults have to be recognized by society to not be role-play?

Would you tell a gay/lesbian couple who have been in a committed relationship for years that they are just role-playing since a significant portion of society does not recognize their relationship and their relationship cannot be legally recognized in many places in the world?

I think it rather pointless to rely solely on the law and society in general to define relationships between consenting adults. If you look at one of the dictionary definitions of slave, there is no mention of law, consent or exchange of currency. Slave: "one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence". Are you saying that only one definition of slave is real and all others are just role playing?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:31:05 AM

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the only right is obey

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RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:33:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: whipingherfeet

the only right is obey

Really?

When you take into account that some relationships don't even grant that right....

In mine, it did not matter if I obeyed or not. In the end, I did what he wanted.

So, technically speaking..........the right to obey is not a right...it's a choice

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RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:47:14 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

This is very true, John. The decision to surrender or exercise my various rights has always been my choice. Just as my right to decide if, when and, to whom i would submit to has always been my choice. There have been many times in my life that i made the choice not to exercise certain rights. For example, i have both the right to free speech and the right to remain silent. Sometimes, i have chosen to not exercise my free speech right, in order to avoid a confrontation or, to stay out of trouble or, to avoid hurting another's feelings or, because i was ordered to keep quiet by someone who i had determined had the right to tell me what to do such as, a sergeant or an officer when i was in the Army and now, by my Master. Then again, there have been times that i did exercise my right to free speech and wished i hadn't because there were negative consequences that resulted from my opening my mouth and exercising my right to put my foot in it.

Rights aren't obligations and i can choose to exercise them or not.

i also have the right to self-determination and to decide for myself what sort of life i wish to live. And, what i have determined is best for me is to be owned by the particular Man i agreed to belong to and to be His kinky, masochist, domestic slave, without restrictions. Of course, i do also have the right to be unfaithful to my commitment to my Master and to walk out the door. However, that action would violate the very essence of my personal ethics and would destroy my feelings of self-worth. But, i have that right, if i ever choose to exercise it.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

Thanks for bringing some sanity and reality to the "slave" discussion, joy. Seriously, you should be commended and I'd love to make your past few posts required reading for anyone considering a power exchange relationship (or just wondering what a consensual "slave" is).

John

P.S. - I have no doubt that the thought of disobeying your Master's command or leaving the relationship "would violate the very essence of [your] personal ethics and would destroy [your] feelings of self-worth" based upon the circumstances of today, and would remain the case so long as he remains true to his commitments, obligations and responsibilities to you (or at the very least, your expectations of him). But you might feel a bit differently if those circumstances changed (ie: if he changed them so drastically that it was not, could not be, acceptable to you).

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/14/2007 5:54:58 AM >

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(in reply to slavegirljoy)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:52:25 AM

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quote:

Compatibility of limits does not mean that they cease to exist. It simply means, as you have well stated, that being compatible means that they will not be exceeded. Again, that is a far cry from a universal statement of having no rights and no limits. It seems as though admitting the obvious reality detracts from the enjoyment some folks derive from the fantasy.

Fantasies are all well and good, and folks are welcome to enjoy them. But when a fantasy is portrayed as reality, the rest of us have not consented to playing along. Want to enjoy the fantasy uninterrupted? Don't mention it in a public fashion where others are bound to respond to the contrary.

To your credit, you've not engaged in such fantasy in this discussion and I don't wish to imply that you have.

John

P.S. - We're humans... the most curiously confounding creatures on the planet.

John

I am not ignoring what you said here; I just realize that neither of us would agree on this. So, instead of dragging it out; I am just going to say that I understand what you are saying and leave it at that.

mist

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RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 8:22:26 AM

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First of all, thank you very much, John, for your kind remarks. Secondly, the relationship that i have with my Master is, basically, it's own little society, known as my Master's household. It has only 3 members and the members voluntarily joined for a specific reason, to come together for the purpose of creating this mini-society that would benefit all of it's members. It was set-up with very specific and agreed-upon rules and requirements to live by and my Master was appointed as the Supreme Leader to run it. He oversees this mini-society and decides the rights of each member, within His household, and when and under what circumstances those rights can be exercised, such as the right to free speech. In my Master's household, that particular right must be exercised in a certain manner or, not at all, such as, it can't be exercised by yelling, screaming, talking in a loud and angry voice or in a disrespectful manner. This is how this little society, that my Master and i created and, which exists within the larger societies of the neighborhood, the town, the county, the state and, the country, operates. To me, it's sort of like when you join or start-up a private club, by-laws are created that the members adhere to and a head honcho is decided on, etc. Anyone who wants to be a member and, is allowed to join, agrees to go along with the rules and to follow the direction of the leader. Finally, the sole purpose for the very existence of the relationship that i have with my Master is for the mutual satisfaction and benefit that both my Master and i get out of it. If, for whatever reason, either my Master or i or both were no longer receiving a positive benefit from being together or from being together as a Master and slave, then the relationship would either changer or end. After all, what would be the point of it continuing as it is, if it was no longer satisfying and beneficial? While i am a masochist, i have no need or desire to live a miserable life and my Master certainly doesn't want to own an unhappy slave and, i don't want to see my Master unhappy or frustrated. The only reason that He and i came together to form this relationship was for the purpose of enhancing both His life and mine. And, that mutual decision was based on a lot of discussion and learning about each other and making sure that what He had in mind was what i wanted in a M/s relationship, too, as well as, making sure that i had the character traits He was looking for in a slave and He had the character traits i was looking for in a Master. If He were to suddenly undergo some major personality change and become a total maniac and decide that He wanted to exercise His right to come after me with a baseball bat, intent on bashing my brains in then, by all means, i could exercise my right to run like hell and never look back. The same holds true, if i were to suddenly undergo a major personality change and become a total bitch and decide that i wanted to exercise my right to no longer bring Him anything or do anything for Him or start screwing every guy that walked by, by all means, He could exercise His right to toss me out the door and never let me back in. In any society, no matter how small it is, even if it's just a couple out on a date or a few roommates sharing a house, there are rights and rules, some specified and others assumed and left unspoken, that the people involved abide by for the purpose of getting along and getting whatever benefit they achieve by being together, rather than being alone. Such is the case in my relationship with my Master, only the rights, rules, privileges and obligations within my relationship with my Master are specified by Him and agreed to by me. Sorry for this very long reply to your comments. Unfortunately, my right to free expression tends to go on and on sometimes. slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Thanks for bringing some sanity and reality to the "slave" discussion, joy. Seriously, you should be commended and I'd love to make your past few posts required reading for anyone considering a power exchange relationship (or just wondering what a consensual "slave" is).

John

P.S. - I have no doubt that the thought of disobeying your Master's command or leaving the relationship "would violate the very essence of [your] personal ethics and would destroy [your] feelings of self-worth" based upon the circumstances of today, and would remain the case so long as he remains true to his commitments, obligations and responsibilities to you (or at the very least, your expectations of him). But you might feel a bit differently if those circumstances changed (ie: if he changed them so drastically that it was not, could not be, acceptable to you).

(in reply to Rover)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 9:03:25 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Sorry for this very long reply to your comments. Unfortunately, my right to free expression tends to go on and on sometimes. slave joy
Owned property of Master David

No reason to apologize at all, joy. I wish that every word of it were posted as a permanent introduction to "what is a Master/slave relationship?".

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/14/2007 9:04:09 AM >

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Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

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