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RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 1:06:48 PM

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Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

But just to be clear what I was saying is that slavery is not defined legally or by societal recognition.

I am not trying to define slavery.
I am saying that because slavery is not legally recognized, you have rights, because the law does not recognize your right to surrender your rights, which in and of itself is still a right, so even if you want to exercise your right to surrender your rights you are acknowledging that you have the right to do that which is still you exercising your right...

When you say that it is role play you are absolutely defining slavery for yourself (which is absolutely fine, because we all have definitions and concepts.... thats what makes us human beings). And like I said earlier there is a very clear and historical precedence in the United States for ignoring legal status (civil rights movement in the 60s) or ignoring rights (anti-gun ownership movement) for the sake of adhering to moral beliefs.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 3:44:53 PM

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Joined: 11/27/2007
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The interesting thing about this thread, and similar ones, is slave A defines slavery as this, slave B defines slavery as that, master A defines it as this and master B defines it differently again. The only conclusion I can reach then, is that slavery is whatever you want it to be, which is not a fixed reality (a law, not in the legal sense, but in the law of physics sense) that governs our lives, but an interpretation of how we wish to experience our reality. No wonder the Goreans are so passionate, they at least have a guideline they can hold up and say "this is how you do it, this is slavery".

My dear American friends, here in Australia there is at least one right that comes with being a citizen of this fair land, and if you do not exercise that right you are sought out and brought to task under our laws (did you know that once you have registered with the Australian Electoral Commission that voting is compulsory here) .... so while a Master here may declare with pomp and ceremony that you have NO rights, our country sees it differently and will enforce that.

And whether or not a few individuals manage to live happily under the radar, there are plenty of people who live in fear of losing their um's if they come out of the closet, because family services have the right to take away your rights to keep them.

You can pretend that isn't true if it makes your experience of reality deeper and richer, that is totally your right.

< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/14/2007 3:46:24 PM >

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 5:45:03 PM

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
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Of course, there is no standard definition of what a Master/slave relationship is, nor should there be. No two Master/slave relationships are the same because no two Masters and slaves are the same. Each relationship functions in a way that suits the unique personalities of the Master and the slave. As far as i'm concerned, if there are 50 thousand Master/slave relationships, within the membership of CollarMe, then there are, and should be, 50 thousand different types of Master/slave relationships. Each one should be as unique as the people involved in them. Why is that a problem? Why should there be a "fixed reality" of what a slave is or what defines a Master/slave relationship? No two relationships are exactly the same, whether they are based on D/s principles or not. i have never seen any two families that are exactly the same. Who would want all relationships or all families to be the same? i don't want anyone telling me that my family is doing it all wrong, just because it's not done "by the book" and, neither do i want anyone telling me that my relationship with my Master is all wrong, just because it's not "by the book". i've got nothing against people who follow a Gorean lifestyle but, it's not my lifestyle and i don't need anyone to define slavery for me. i define my own life and my Master defines how i am to serve Him as His personal slave. And, i do so with passion and commitment and a certainty that it is the right way for my Master and i. Remember, that "slave" is a relative term and, within the BDSM community, it refers to someone who has made the choice to live as a slave, within a personal relationship, with a Master. It's unforced slavery, unlike the many other types of forced slavery, which are illegal. Each of us comes into our slavery of our own accord. No one should be a slave, who doesn't want to be a slave. And, as such, "consensual slavery" is not a legal issue. A Master/slave relationship is just a variation of a Dominant/submissive interpersonal relationship between two (or more) consenting adults. And, it's up to each Master/slave couple to determine how they want to relate to each other, within their relationship. That can include the option of the slave living under the total command and dictatorship of the Master and living by His rules and relinquishing any or all of her rights to Him, as they see fit, within their unique relationship. It's too bad that you all down in AUS don't feel you have the freedom to enjoy your personal relationships the way you want and the best you can do is to "pretend' to be in a Master/slave relationship for fear of the strong arm of the police and social services crashing down your door. In the U.S., the police and social services stay out of the private lives of individual families and couples, unless and until there is just cause for their concern. That usually requires someone yelling "rape", "abuse", etc. and, as long the people involved are happily living their quiet little Master/slave relationship, that's not normally going to happen. slave joyOwned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

The interesting thing about this thread, and similar ones, is slave A defines slavery as this, slave B defines slavery as that, master A defines it as this and master B defines it differently again. The only conclusion I can reach then, is that slavery is whatever you want it to be, which is not a fixed reality (a law, not in the legal sense, but in the law of physics sense) that governs our lives, but an interpretation of how we wish to experience our reality. No wonder the Goreans are so passionate, they at least have a guideline they can hold up and say "this is how you do it, this is slavery".

My dear American friends, here in Australia there is at least one right that comes with being a citizen of this fair land, and if you do not exercise that right you are sought out and brought to task under our laws (did you know that once you have registered with the Australian Electoral Commission that voting is compulsory here) .... so while a Master here may declare with pomp and ceremony that you have NO rights, our country sees it differently and will enforce that.

And whether or not a few individuals manage to live happily under the radar, there are plenty of people who live in fear of losing their um's if they come out of the closet, because family services have the right to take away your rights to keep them.

You can pretend that isn't true if it makes your experience of reality deeper and richer, that is totally your right.

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 6:14:36 PM

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Joined: 11/27/2007
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Respectfully, none of that negates the fact that you can choose to have a M/s relationship, where you have the freedom to make a choice by default you have rights.

So do people who identify as a slave believe they have no rights when they are owned... or do they identify as a slave who has no rights at all? Are they still a slave if unowned? Some argue they are born slaves, which means ownership is not a condition of their experience of slavery. If their owner dies before them, do they still claim that they have no rights? Is their slavery only hinged upon whether or not they are owned? If they have rights when they are unowned, then they have those same rights when owned, they just waive them... which is not the same as not having them.

There are different types of rights. Those which your country and your laws give you, and those which you claim. I don't see anyone on this board, slave or otherwise, that has given up their right to an opinion.

< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/14/2007 6:47:57 PM >

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 6:56:25 PM

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

Respectfully, none of that negates the fact that you can choose to have a M/s relationship, where you have the freedom to make a choice by default you have rights.

So do people who identify as a slave believe they have no rights when they are owned... or do they identify as a slave who has no rights at all? Are they still a slave if unowned? Some argue they are born slaves, which means ownership is not a condition of their experience of slavery. If their owner dies before them, do they still claim that they have no rights? Is their slavery only hinged upon whether or not they are owned? If they have rights when they are unowned, then they have those same rights when owned, they just waive them... which is not the same as not having them.

There are different types of rights. Those which your country and your laws give you, and those which you claim. I don't see anyone on this board, slave or otherwise, that has given up their right to an opinion.

I am going to answer this from my own thoughts only…In other words….this is only my opinion and how I would apply things to my own relationships.
You are correct in that yes, I have the choice to enter into any kind of relationship that is of my own choosing. If you wish to argue semantics, then yes, I have the right to make that choice.

However; once I have made that choice; I choose, willingly, and knowingly to give up any and all rights that I may have; legally, emotionally, physically, mentally.
To go a bit further; in my past relationship; I gave up the rights to claim my own youngin. I gave up the rights to claim any part of the house we lived in. I gave up the rights to any monetary gains we may have made while together. In other words; everything we had; our home, the bank accounts, the youngins….everything became his. And yes, it was legal. And yes, it would have stood up in court. This was the kind of relationship that I willingly chose to be in; and the kind of relationship that I willingly stayed in for more than 10 years.

I never called myself a slave; he never called me a slave. Labels meant absolutely nothing to us. We were simply ourselves; living the best way we could with each other in a way that made us both happy.

So, with that in mind; I would like to address something that you said. You asked

“do people who identify as a slave believe they have no rights when they are owned; or do they identify as a slave who has no rights at all”

Since I do not label myself; I could not answer that. Nor could I answer that for others who do choose to label themselves. I can, however, state this. In my own relationship; I had no rights because I chose to go into a relationship in which my rights were revoked. It had nothing to do with how I might have labeled myself; and everything to do with the simple fact that if I wanted to be with him; that was the sacrifice that I had to make. I made it quite happily; and never for one day, regretted it.

You also made the statement

“if their owner dies before them, do they still claim that they have no rights”

Again, I can not answer for others; only for myself. The answer obviously is no. I could not claim having no rights because that claim was only in effect for the duration of our relationship. Once the relationship ended; all my previous choices became null and void.

I understand the importance of making sure that the fine print is known; especially for those who are new comers. I am the first to admit that I would never advice my relationship to another; mine was a bit extreme. In fact I would tell anyone else who was considering it to run pretty fast in the opposite direction. However, if I could find that intensity again; I would once again immerse myself with no second thoughts.

Slavery is not what society makes it. It is what each individual believes it to be

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 7:25:34 PM

Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

However; once I have made that choice; I choose, willingly, and knowingly to give up any and all rights that I may have; legally, emotionally, physically, mentally.

I am assuming you are an American citizen? You have the right to an attorney. You can waive that right, your Master can tell you not to exercise that right, but that right is given to you, it is yours, you can only relieve yourself of that right by changing citizenship (or perhaps committing treason, I think you reliquish your rights then? someone more knowledgeable on American law can clarify).

If you were imprisoned in a foreign country and your Master and you were separated and had no contact, what rights would you claim? Would you fight for your right to freedom as an American citizen? Would you demand to see someone from the American Embassy? Would you suddenly, in a situation where your rights are taken from you, rights you take for granted and freely relinquish in a safe environment, would you suddenly exercise those rights or sit placidly with the belief that you have no rights and accept your fate?

All human beings have rights, free or otherwise, consider them God given rights, the first and foremost the right to an opinion. You may not have the right to express that opinion, but you have the right to form it.

< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/14/2007 7:26:27 PM >

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 7:49:56 PM

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Sure, she has the right to serve her Master.

(in reply to goodgirl08)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 8:36:24 PM

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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

However; once I have made that choice; I choose, willingly, and knowingly to give up any and all rights that I may have; legally, emotionally, physically, mentally.

I am assuming you are an American citizen? You have the right to an attorney. You can waive that right, your Master can tell you not to exercise that right, but that right is given to you, it is yours, you can only relieve yourself of that right by changing citizenship (or perhaps committing treason, I think you reliquish your rights then? someone more knowledgeable on American law can clarify).

If you were imprisoned in a foreign country and your Master and you were separated and had no contact, what rights would you claim? Would you fight for your right to freedom as an American citizen? Would you demand to see someone from the American Embassy? Would you suddenly, in a situation where your rights are taken from you, rights you take for granted and freely relinquish in a safe environment, would you suddenly exercise those rights or sit placidly with the belief that you have no rights and accept your fate?

All human beings have rights, free or otherwise, consider them God given rights, the first and foremost the right to an opinion. You may not have the right to express that opinion, but you have the right to form it.

Forget it.

You live in your own little world, surrounded by walls that encase your mind in darkness.

I actually feel sorry for you and your inability to see outside the walls of your own prison.

Have a nice night.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 8:40:44 PM

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
Forget it.

You live in your own little world, surrounded by walls that encase your mind in darkness.

I actually feel sorry for you and your inability to see outside the walls of your own prison.

Have a nice night.

I have found that unless someone has lived in the scenario you mentioned - truly knowing such a choice in turning over rights will never be revoked...truly knowing you will never leave...knowing for some there is no such thing as "you can walk away whenever you want" - that person will never understand what it is to live that way and will always look to argue it.

I appreciate your posts in this thread.

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 8:57:59 PM

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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See, this is a perfect example of what I was talking about before: discussions about rights in a BDSM relationship are a perfect storm for passionate misunderstanding, because the notion of rights makes sense within a legal or political context ... AND NOWHERE ELSE. I think it's pretty trivial to be repeatedly reminded that we all have rights under the laws in effect in our countries. Don't you think we know that? The OP was asking something else; she was asking whether the structure of a BDSM relationship makes room for a slave's rights. And the answer is: neither yes nor no, because the question is malformed. It's what's known in philosophy as a "category mistake." Constitutions grant rights; in some people's philosophies, God (or Nature) grants rights; but that's it. You can't take a political concept, inject it into the framework of an interpersonal relationship, and expect to get meaningful fodder for debate.

The one thing I don't really understand about your screed is this part:

quote:

And whether or not a few individuals manage to live happily under the radar, there are plenty of people who live in fear of losing their um's if they come out of the closet, because family services have the right to take away your rights to keep them.

Umm...you can lose your children in Australia for your preference to be tied up in your bedroom? Can someone else confirm that? Sounds like a country I don't want to live in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

The interesting thing about this thread, and similar ones, is slave A defines slavery as this, slave B defines slavery as that, master A defines it as this and master B defines it differently again. The only conclusion I can reach then, is that slavery is whatever you want it to be, which is not a fixed reality (a law, not in the legal sense, but in the law of physics sense) that governs our lives, but an interpretation of how we wish to experience our reality. No wonder the Goreans are so passionate, they at least have a guideline they can hold up and say "this is how you do it, this is slavery".

My dear American friends, here in Australia there is at least one right that comes with being a citizen of this fair land, and if you do not exercise that right you are sought out and brought to task under our laws (did you know that once you have registered with the Australian Electoral Commission that voting is compulsory here) .... so while a Master here may declare with pomp and ceremony that you have NO rights, our country sees it differently and will enforce that.

And whether or not a few individuals manage to live happily under the radar, there are plenty of people who live in fear of losing their um's if they come out of the closet, because family services have the right to take away your rights to keep them.

You can pretend that isn't true if it makes your experience of reality deeper and richer, that is totally your right.

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 9:04:25 PM

Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

You live in your own little world, surrounded by walls that encase your mind in darkness.

I actually feel sorry for you and your inability to see outside the walls of your own prison.

I live in a world where my forefathers fought for my freedom, for my rights, even if it is my choice to waive those rights. I live in a world where my country values these rights so highly, they give me those rights, whether I want them or not. I live in a world where I believe that everyone has the right to their opinion, whether I agree with it or not. I live in a world where I have the right to evaluate those opinions and make my own choices about them. If that is prison, then the bars of my prison are constructed from reason and reality and rationality. Do not pity me.

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 9:05:47 PM

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Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

Umm...you can lose your children in Australia for your preference to be tied up in your bedroom? Can someone else confirm that? Sounds like a country I don't want to live in.

You limit your BDSM activities to simply tying someone up?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 9:08:16 PM

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Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

Constitutions grant rights; in some people's philosophies, God (or Nature) grants rights; but that's it. You can't take a political concept, inject it into the framework of an interpersonal relationship, and expect to get meaningful fodder for debate.

What then when the rights given to you by the constitution impinge or overlap upon the rights of those held sacred within a relationship?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 9:12:54 PM

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LOL

You know what gets me about threads like this LaM?

They always...ALWAYS...turn into political debates because there are always a few who can not extend past the edge of the box.

Oh well...It had the makings of an interesting thread.

mist

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 9:17:09 PM

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Can you give a specific example? My personal relationships don't curtail my legal rights. That's the whole point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

Constitutions grant rights; in some people's philosophies, God (or Nature) grants rights; but that's it. You can't take a political concept, inject it into the framework of an interpersonal relationship, and expect to get meaningful fodder for debate.

What then when the rights given to you by the constitution impinge or overlap upon the rights of those held sacred within a relationship?

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 10:46:04 PM

tdslittlehelper

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Joined: 8/30/2007
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they have rights because they possess them just because they are human.. do they choose to give up those rights.. now there is the question

(in reply to goodgirl08)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 11:01:56 PM

Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

I have found that unless someone has lived in the scenario you mentioned - truly knowing such a choice in turning over rights will never be revoked...truly knowing you will never leave...knowing for some there is no such thing as "you can walk away whenever you want" - that person will never understand what it is to live that way and will always look to argue it.

I counselled a woman who had her rights stolen from her, she was forced into sexual slavery by her father. The truth of the matter was that she still had the rights protecting her from law, her father simply prevented her from exercising or accessing those rights.... that, however, in the context of what she went through was cruel semantics. Had somebody outside their relationship known of the situation, her rights would have been given back to her by the State, forcibly if necessary. I think I have a pretty graphic picture of what it can be like to have NO rights.

quote:

Can you give a specific example? My personal relationships don't curtail my legal rights. That's the whole point.

That's the opposite to the point point I was trying to make. Your relationships don't curtail your legal rights (although slaves here have said that it does, it forces them to relinquish their legal rights, which I disagreed to)... your legal rights can curtail those rights you set within your relationship, it can over ride them. I have already discussed how the law can interfere or intervene with our relationships, regardless of what we ourselves consider consentual.

My comment about living in fear of losing your um's by being outed was in direct reference to an American woman who had a public forum, blog, etc on BDSM and she was outed to her husband. Out of fear of losing her um's she withdrew the site with that explanation, she was withdrawing out of fear. It's not isolated to Australia.

quote:

They always...ALWAYS...turn into political debates because there are always a few who can not extend past the edge of the box.

I didnt mention the constitution, LAM did. My debate has always been about what is reality, not what is political. How can anyone reasonably categorically state they have no rights, without ignoring the reality of things like you have the right to an attorney (assuming you are American), you have the right to be safe from any harm which you (or our Master) does not choose to be visited upon you, you have the right to free and independant thought, ad infinitum. The two are a contradiction.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 11:38:16 PM

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

I have found that unless someone has lived in the scenario you mentioned - truly knowing such a choice in turning over rights will never be revoked...truly knowing you will never leave...knowing for some there is no such thing as "you can walk away whenever you want" - that person will never understand what it is to live that way and will always look to argue it.

I counselled a woman who had her rights stolen from her, she was forced into sexual slavery by her father. The truth of the matter was that she still had the rights protecting her from law, her father simply prevented her from exercising or accessing those rights.... that, however, in the context of what she went through was cruel semantics. Had somebody outside their relationship known of the situation, her rights would have been given back to her by the State, forcibly if necessary. I think I have a pretty graphic picture of what it can be like to have NO rights.

We are talking consentual slavery; you are talking nonconsentual. I have posted twice now, that I have those rights granted to me by my state and country, yet I opt my Master's law to overrule them. You are citing an example that has nothing to do with what I am talking about, and I am not sure why. Illegal slavery and child abuse are not what this thread is about, as I understand it.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 12/14/2007 11:44:01 PM >

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/14/2007 11:59:11 PM

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From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

I didnt mention the constitution, LAM did. My debate has always been about what is reality, not what is political. How can anyone reasonably categorically state they have no rights, without ignoring the reality of things like you have the right to an attorney (assuming you are American), you have the right to be safe from any harm which you (or our Master) does not choose to be visited upon you, you have the right to free and independant thought, ad infinitum. The two are a contradiction.

Except that you can only define your reality.

I do believe that people can absolutely say (without a conflict in my mind) that they discount or ignore their legal rights that are in direct conflict to their relationship structure. I also believe that there can be a viable and enduring relationship that includes ignoring legal rights that contradict the structure of the relationship.

There is a long history in America, that continues to this day, of people deciding to ignore their legal rights or ignore their status conferred upon them legally for a different status (the illegal immigrant debate, the civil rights movement of the 60s, the womens right movement, the gay rights movement). Would you have told a black person in America in the 18th century that they were only 3/5 of a person because thats what the law said? That their reality is strictly the law and the rights that it confers? Or can you recognize that people's identity transcends the law and what it allows for (or doesn't allow for)?

C~

Edited to add: Unless someone decides to assert their legal rights, I don't see how (at least in America) someone's legal rights will just come up and stand in the face of the relationship. And if someone decides to assert their legal rights I'm guessing the relationship is over.

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 12/15/2007 12:02:26 AM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to LittleWench)

RE: Slave rights - 12/15/2007 12:15:16 AM

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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Yes, and do you really think you're saying something that no one comprehends? Everyone knows that we have legal rights that aren't abridged by our personal relationships. Everyone knows that slavery is illegal and slave contracts legally invalid. If you really think people are unclear about that, you aren't hearing what the OP is asking. The OP is asking something that cannot be answered with all the legal tergiversation in the world. Her only mistake was to frame the question in terms of rights.

Also, it's "consensual," not "consentual." I mean, really, if we're going to get technical about the law and its effect on our lives, let's make sure we use real words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

Your relationships don't curtail your legal rights (although slaves here have said that it does, it forces them to relinquish their legal rights, which I disagreed to)... your legal rights can curtail those rights you set within your relationship, it can over ride them. I have already discussed how the law can interfere or intervene with our relationships, regardless of what we ourselves consider consentual.

(in reply to LittleWench)

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