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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 11:50:47 AM   
SweetDommes


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First - I have no problems with your posting, I can understand it, it's not gibberish, and it doesn't give me a headache.

Second - there is something to be said about someone who doesn't bother to make an effort to make a good impression. 

Yeah, I know, their ability to spell check doesn't mean anything about their ability to be a good partner ... but seriously, if you were interviewing someone for a job, particularly a close/intimate job (i.e. a nanny for your UM, a maid/housekeeper, etc.) and you had two applicants with identical experience levels, who would you pick?  The one who has the attention to detail to make sure that he/she is well-groomed, has their references handy and well typed, a well-written and relatively error free resume .. or the one who shows up with wrinkled pants/skirt, their hair looking like it hasn't been brushed or even washed in over a week, who has no idea what the current phone number of their first reference is, and has glaring errors on their resume?  I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have the person who takes the time to make sure that he/she is making a good impression.  While first impressions aren't always correct, they are very important, and it's much easier to live up to a good first impression than to change a bad first impression.

I'm well aware that what we are looking for isn't an employee, but the first impression example stands - we don't want someone in our house who is barely literate (particularly someone close in age to us ... most schools around here had computers in them and in classes for ALL students by my 8th grade year ... that would make it about 15 years ago or so - they should know how to type by now), nor someone who can't be bothered to pay attention to little details.  Plus, who knows what they consider a "little" detail?  What if, for them, a little detail is when the cats were last fed, or when laundry was last done?  To us, huge things, but maybe they don't feel that they are that important ... not something I'm willing to risk.

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 11:52:53 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
But i'll retract my point if you can provide conclusive evidence that grammar and commitment to a relationship are directly related.


I think the relationship is indirect, but it does exist.  Again, grammar or spelling in an on-line medium is a matter of how we present ourselves, our attention to detail, and the desire to communicate clearly and respectfully to others.

All of these things are necesary in a relationship of any kind, but especially a D/S relationship.  D/S dynamics are high-wattage and often require a lot of sensitivity on the part of the dominant, as well as openness and ability to communicate clearly from the submissive.

It's an indirect relationship, in other words, between grammar and commitment.  But it does exist.  Good grammar, and messages which express thoughts and feelings clearly, are a sign that you care what I think of you.  It's a sign that you want to make a positive impression.

If you are careless, crude, and thoughtless when you present yourself to me as a dominant, be it on-line or in person, that tells me something about what I can expect from you in a relationship.  The same is true in reverse.

This is to say nothing about the men and women who are turned on specifically by a person who is well-educated, articulate, and a good communicator.  I'll plead guilty on all of those counts!   

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 11:59:44 AM   
darchChylde


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
But i'll retract my point if you can provide conclusive evidence that grammar and commitment to a relationship are directly related.


I think the relationship is indirect, but it does exist.  Again, grammar or spelling in an on-line medium is a matter of how we present ourselves, our attention to detail, and the desire to communicate clearly and respectfully to others.

All of these things are necesary in a relationship of any kind, but especially a D/S relationship.  D/S dynamics are high-wattage and often require a lot of sensitivity on the part of the dominant, as well as openness and ability to communicate clearly from the submissive.

It's an indirect relationship, in other words, between grammar and commitment.  But it does exist.  Good grammar, and messages which express thoughts and feelings clearly, are a sign that you care what I think of you.  It's a sign that you want to make a positive impression.

If you are careless, crude, and thoughtless when you present yourself to me as a dominant, be it on-line or in person, that tells me something about what I can expect from you in a relationship.  The same is true in reverse.

This is to say nothing about the men and women who are turned on specifically by a person who is well-educated, articulate, and a good communicator.  I'll plead guilty on all of those counts!   


I will accept all of your arguments as valid points, but they do not constitude conclusive evidence of the theory that commitment and good grammar are directly or even indirectly related.  But, on the other hand, they are indicative of good common sense and a widely held personal preference; which should be enough of a reason to brush up on those skills.

Like i said before, the only time grammar is related to one's ability to commit in a relationship is when your dominant or potential dominant places it before you as a condition of your submission to them.

edited to add: There is no corrolary *wink* between the opposing argument and the fact that i have started to put those elementary school teachings to good use.


< Message edited by darchChylde -- 1/2/2008 12:03:21 PM >


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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 12:01:15 PM   
BoiJen


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Hmmm...common sense has to do with handling situations...not grammar.

Umm yeah I said I'd leave the thread alone and I didn't. Blah the addictive nature of arguements

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 12:09:14 PM   
Oumae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLegs

Well that solves the question of why I get so many 1 line emails.  The mean Dommes have instilled a fear of spelling & grammar errors. 



Lol. That did make me laugh. Thanks.

I have a friend with severe dyslexia, I'm glad I didn't miss out on the friendship by ignoring them over some spelling mistakes.  Spell check doesn't solve it for all as they may not be able to tell the difference between similar spellings.  To me the content or context is more important than picking up on some errors.

Oumae

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 12:16:14 PM   
slavekal


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Obviously I was exaggerating for effect.  Where does one draw the line?  I say, if you don't know a word, look it up?  Or at least use one you do know.

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 12:46:08 PM   
beeble


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quote:

BoiJen wrote: Have the curtesy to spell check and get your grammar straight.

Of course, the problem with spell-checkers is that, while `curtesy' is a word (loosely, the right of a man to inherit from his deceased wife, even if there are children from the marriage), it isn't the word you were looking for.  (Eye sup pose yew cud Czech yore whirred buck butt vats sew sloe.)

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:37:46 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BruisedHick

I would say it like this:

There are some people who get angry over typos. There are some who do not. There are none who get angry over good grammar.

Therefore, good grammar only increases your chances of meeting someone.

Now, for me, I want to be with someone who does things well. If they tie me up, I want them to check their work, to make sure my weiner isn't going blue, or my left hand isn't left untied. What does shitty grammar tel me about their rope work? Either they rush through things, or they don't care enough to learn anything properly.

Grammar is like showering: Anyone can do it, but those who don't seem to be the ones who get offended that it makes a difference.

Yours,


benji


I'm not offended if someone prefers perfect grammar.

I think they may seriously limit their pool of potentials but it isn't my life now is is?

However when someone picks apart someone's writing word by word or insults someone online over grammar and spelling it does not make a favorable impression on me. Again not important unless they wish to impress me.

I do not see that someone else's grammar and spelling equals a justification for my own rudeness. Do you?

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:37:52 PM   
petpete


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Cause most of them are into reading but there are exceptions . A particular Domme downunder She claims to be articulate and sophisticated and my due French which i thought that the French pride themselves with manners (and She does possess some appearance ) yet She has taken on a maggot that cannot spell a word, and his entire profile looks like a picture of an undies comercial...

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:44:36 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


It's an indirect relationship, in other words, between grammar and commitment. But it does exist. Good grammar, and messages which express thoughts and feelings clearly, are a sign that you care what I think of you. It's a sign that you want to make a positive impression.

If you are careless, crude, and thoughtless when you present yourself to me as a dominant, be it on-line or in person, that tells me something about what I can expect from you in a relationship. The same is true in reverse.



Just a note that there are extremes here.

Being careless, crude and thoughtless is not the same as never learning grammar properly or having dyslexia or just thinking faster than your hands can type from time to time.

Then you can look at my household.

Tom is a genius when it comes to spelling and grammar -- he struggles mightily with expressing his feelings and has for years. He also tends to nitpick at other's language which only really pisses those people off.

Fox and I are not great with grammar though Fox had more education in that than I did and I have dyslexia. Yet out of all of us I'm probably the most capable of expressing myself.

Collectively I'd say we're a pretty damned good example of commitment and support in a poly/kinky family.

If there are indirect connections here, it's bloody indirect in my household.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 1/2/2008 1:55:07 PM >


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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:45:51 PM   
LRODANDMASTER


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I THINK ITS TOTALLY FREAKIN UNFARE THAT PPL JUDG U ON THE BASES OF UR GRAMMER.  JESUS FREAKIN CRIST WERE NOT ALL ENGLISH TEACHERS.  AL LTHAT MATTERS IS LIKE HOW ACRRUATELY I CAN WHIP UR ASS.

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:47:27 PM   
mnottertail


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Welcmu Bcak, Lroddie ...

Hope you had a nice chrisian. and a good year too!!!!

LOL

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:47:44 PM   
BoiJen


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If you can't aim your fingers at the key board correctly what makes anyone think that you can aim any kind of tool at someone's ass?

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:47:59 PM   
FullCircle


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zactly

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:50:34 PM   
SweetDommes


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You've obviously not paid attention to LROD in the past ....

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 1:52:31 PM   
sweetstorm


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I want someone who has the patience and intelligence to take the time to do something correctly.

If I receive an email with terrible spelling, it seems to lack a certain bit of thoroughness that I want my partner to have.

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 2:01:53 PM   
erebus


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I personally feel it is important that everyone take the time and effort to use proper grammar and (especially) spelling.  It indicates that (1) people take the time to make sure their posts to someone they are interested in, and (2) indicates that they have enough on the ball to actually spell correctly and use the appropriate grammar.

It's a sticking point with me as well.

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 2:12:26 PM   
beeble


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I've no idea what `people take the time to make sure their posts to someone they are interested in' is supposed to mean.  Point (2) is that people should use proper spelling and grammar because it shows they use proper spelling and grammar.  Your spelling's fine and your grammar's pretty good but half of your post makes no sense and the other half is a tautology.


< Message edited by beeble -- 1/2/2008 2:23:40 PM >

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RE: Why Dommes judge people based on grammar? - 1/2/2008 4:32:33 PM   
VeryCurious07


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YesMistressIrish

Verycurious07,
You wrote this above and I snipped some...


Irish, I didn't want to quote your whole post, but I am curious about something. I feel like we are about to get into an argument over this, even though I think we agree more than disagree about the topic. So, that said, I would prefer to only argue with people I disagree with. To restate and distill my normally verbose posting style, all I was saying is that grammar and spelling are indeed important. As someone who posts on a lot of forum sites for various topics, hell I even Modertate several videogame forums on one of the largest gaming sites on the web, I understand the need for articulation and clarity in posting on a message board. All I was saying is that posting on busy sites is a lot like regular conversation, in that forums (at least in my opinion anyway) should not require meticulously crafted grammar, syntax, style and spelling. Honestly, I have always felt that clarity is far more important than following, to the letter, all the tenets and rules in Strunk & White's, The elements of Style.

If you disagree with this, I understand, but I have always found that forums are a far more relaxed place than a college English class. While I personally take the time to check for spelling and style mistakes in my posts, I don't do so in a fastidious manner as I would if I were writing a paper for presentation to the New England Journal of Medicine, for example. 

In no way was I saying that because people like me use message boards for entertainment that others don't take it more seriouisly.

Oh, by the way, l33t is Internet geek talk, most common to tech and gaming forums. It is moronic drive.

When someone thinks they have beaten or insulted you they say things like "Owned" only they spell it "Pwnd". E's are usually replaced by 3's. T3h is used instead of "the". When someone is new, instead of "newbie" they are called n00b or some other weird variation. A sentence like the following is considered normal:

101z. Cuz t3h ppl dunno how 2 talk t3h 13375|D34/<

Which translates into "lol because the people don't know how to talk the leet"



I wasn't being evasive, I just think it is completely stupid and I didn't want to waste your time explaining it lol.

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Reply to Falcon and Everyone. - 1/2/2008 5:00:32 PM   
ElanSubdued


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Falccon and Everyone,

Now that I've familiarized myself with most of the thread (all 4 pages as of this reading), I thought it time to reply.  Many pointed out that when communicating online, written words are the main basis of discovering a person's personality .  I tend to agree.  Just as sloppy grooming is unattractive, so is poor use of language.  Likewise, when a post or introductory email is full of typos, spelling errors, and other obvious mistakes (such as not inserting spaces between words and sentences), this is annoying on two counts:  (1) it makes reading the content bloody difficult, and (2), as the reader, it makes me feel that the person writing is lazy.  If someone wants me to take time to read what they've written, I like to see a semblance of reasonable and correct presentation on their part.

Oddly, the OP comes across somewhat rhetorically (which I don't think is the intent).  By rhetorical, I mean "with bombast".  Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but the typos, spelling mistakes, and lack of proper spacing in OP certainly don't help in making a case for more lax grammar rules.  Dommes are not the only people who judge grammar.  All people (to some degree) make value judgments based on how a person presents themselves.  To single out dommes hits a bit of a trigger for me in that I find this offensive.  Dominant women are people like anyone else.  Some won't mind grammar mistakes while others will be more choosey in this regard.  Having said all of this, I'll put my claws away and illuminate some of the reasons that correct use of language is important to me.

First and foremost, I enjoy language.  There is nothing quite so sexy as person who is a capable wordsmith and communicator.  True enough, there are other kinds of sexy, but the eloquent use of language definitely catches my attention.  It isn't that there aren't smart people lacking grammar skills - of course, there are.  Rather, while I hate to make such a generalization, on the Internet the norm is often sloppy, poor, truncated use of language.  Thus, someone who is expressive and correct in their use of language immediately stands out.

We're on a BDSM dating web site.  Consequently, my expectation is that correspondence is likely to be somewhat different than in other fora.  I'm happy to give some latitude because of this, however, courting is still courting.  I like to see someone who appears generally interested in the world around themselves.  Language is huge part of our world.  Thus, someone who demonstrates an ability to research words, to use spell check, and to explore language demonstrates a desire to learn, to communicate, and to explore in a more general sense too.  In terms of a BDSM partner, I prefer a complete person who is capable of interacting on many levels (both in the BDSM and vanilla worlds).  Thus, I'd like a partner I can learn and explore with.  Whether rightly or wrongly, I associate reasonable grammar skills with other traits I find attractive in a partner.

On the subject of perfection, I don't expect perfect grammar.  In fact, seeing human fallibility and vulnerability is attractive and endearing.  Like many things though, there is a balance.  The right amount of imperfection is sexy, but too much comes across as incompetence.  In my book, incompetence isn't remotely sexy.

For me, context and approach have a big impact on how I feel about the poster of a message.  People who regularly post courteously and in a way that shows some modicum of attention to language correctness don't bother me when they make mistakes.  On the other hand, some first time posters... argh!  I mean, how can you take someone seriously when the first thing they post is "looking 4 a Mistress to domin8 me, r u out there"?  This is rude, "do-me", wank fodder posted by someone who can't be bothered to write even a single, coherent sentence.  Actually, worse yet, these are sentence fragments that should have been separated into two complete sentences!  Just to flip the genders around, I've had mistresses use the same degree of ineloquence to demand pictures from me.  *eyes the ever-handy "Delete" button with great fondness*  Those who present themselves rudely (and/or who write with such atrocious grammar that I spend more time figuring out language mechanics than digesting meaning) turn me off very quickly.

It is probably worth considering whether bad grammar equates to rudeness.  The answer, once again, for me, is contextual.  If I have some background about a person and recognize their writing has mistakes beyond their control, this doesn't bother me.  Much of the time though, when I read a person's writing online, for better or for worse, I assume a degree of literacy.  It seems reasonable that if someone can learn how to operate a computer, they can also learn how to use a dictionary, thesaurus, and other writing tools.  Generally then, when having no background to draw on, if writing contains many errors I assume one (or all) of laziness, rudeness, and incompetence on the writer's part.  Is this fair?  Probably not, but the world isn't fair.

Here's a final thought.  Something short and correct often makes a better presentation than a long diatribe full of errors.  The irony of this longish post withstanding, I always advise people to present their ideas simply, succinctly, and with the best grammar and structure they can.  Proofreading before posting is an excellent tool for catching errors.  And when in doubt about the spelling or usage of a word, use a dictionary and thesaurus.

When I read correspondence on a site like Collar Me, I'm not looking for the super accurate composition.  (Heh.  *ponders to himself whether the phrase "super accurate" is a valid substitute for an adjective* :-)  Usually what catches my attention is when someone takes the time to write a thoughtful, personal, well composed letter.  The odd mistake doesn't matter much, but a plethora of obvious mistakes isn't pleasant and, in my opinion, leaves an overall bad impression.  Apart from reasonable grammar, flattery works too.  I'm not above being swayed by a sincere, pervy compliment (such as "you're a good looking, intelligent, kind, well spoken man who makes me equally wet between my ears and legs").  This also works:  "you have a nice ass boy;  I'd like to fuck you".  Albeit, it's a little banal, but the sentiments are sincere and very readable.  In the right context, I don't think most people mind pervy compliments.  Ah, the classics never go out of style - especially when presented with honesty, passion, and reasonable grammar. :-)

Elan.

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