RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 1:10:58 AM

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Speaking as an agnostic I think it is all to easy to ridicule formal religion, expose the excesses and contradictions, the striving for political and especially social control.
It seems to be beyond doubt that many of the conventional religious beliefs especially where morality intrudes are wishful thinking at best and down right inhuman at worst,
but
if you open your eyes and look, really look at what is available to be seen and experienced can all that possibly have come about from.....NOTHING?

I also think that many of those who feel the need to deride religious belief or faith in others actually have "ishews" themselves. Unresolved conflicts with the parental authority that they experienced in their early lives.
Thus they lash out at many forms of control, especially religion.

Having said that separation of Church and State is vital IMO.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 1:21:54 AM

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Seeks, who or what created god, depending on how you define god? What came first, god or nothing? While it is difficult to get our inadequate minds round the idea there is no beginning or end, that scenario also seems to preclude the need for a god to me, just as what came before god does if there is a beginning and an end. The reason many people seem to need god is because of the chaotic nature of being, everything is chance, there is no order.

However, this same god created everything that blights our life as well so why is he so double dealing? Jesus healing the sick, yet the people are sick because of the deseases he created? Religion never stands up to even to a modicum of scutiny.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 4:29:00 AM

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quote:

Logic? You point out to me the logic in religion. And here's our good man Robert A. Heinlein on religion

I didnt think this was a talk about religion. We were speaking of a belief in God.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 5:01:35 AM

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Oh man, not this again.
I have not read all the other posts, and frankly I don't need to, because I am certain it will be a few atheists and agnostics contra a few believers throwing balls of sh*t at each other.
So I will answer the OP, and in a way add my tiny part to the fray.
Your story is all nice, but it unfortunately it does not play out like that. I mean, have you actually expected to see or speak to God at any time your life?? Atheists and agnostics forget that their belief in non-belief is a belief. Most likely, a good percetage of you praise science and seek within it answers and comfort when it comes to future promises ( sounds kind of like all other religions here ). You are just the new system of belief, with a new diety and are slowly creating your own rites. And you are as agressive at fighting with and converting the religious as the inquisition with the heretics.
Now let me come to the matter of strength- how strong is this new belief? Having worked with the dead and the dying, I can tell you that 99.9% beg, plead, barter, talk, laugh, etc. with God as their last breath approaches, and that includes all religions and beliefs, along with atheists and agnostics. It is actually quite sad to see those few who remain firm in their non-belief, because to their mourning parents they are gone, just gone, while the next Christian family has the comfort of thinking they will meet somehow somewhere in the future, that this is not the total end.
All of this might sound silly and religion is easily debatable while you are safe and healthy.
People always find God suddenly when he is needed, when cancer comes about, or other catastrophe.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 5:04:28 AM

PrizedPosession

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Actually it was a pretty nice discussion with some odd comments from thompsonx which was quite enjoyable.
It was handled nicely and views were respected and humor was involved. Not everything in religion has to be so serious

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 5:33:54 AM

Rule

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As a child and for many more decades I was an atheist, but kept my options open. So when as a child I was bleeding to death on the back seat of the car of our physician on Christmass eve about half an hour before midnight, using piles of diapers to catch the gushing out blood, and on the deserted main road of the city he suddenly accelerated from frustratingly and agonizingly slow to very fast, I exerted myself and raised myself sufficiently to look over his shoulder at the velocity meter, just in case there was somebody on the other side, so I could tell them how fast we were going to the hospital - 160 km per hour. I guess that he was in a hurry...

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 5:41:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
Atheists and agnostics forget that their belief in non-belief is a belief.

Sorry, I gracefully sidestep that kind of idiocy.

My doubts as to the existence of a god is really a position more akin to the idea that the first cause is at present unknowable. It's not a belief as much as an acceptance of a fact. No one has been able to prove or disprove the existence of god/first cause yet - so all we have are all of these logic games like Pascal's Wager and other silliness.

Where belief really drops the ball is in asserting things not in evidence. Myth is not fact, it is mere assertion.

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." - Voltaire

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 5:58:56 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
My doubts as to the existence of a god is really a position more akin to the idea that the first cause is at present unknowable. It's not a belief as much as an acceptance of a fact. No one has been able to prove or disprove the existence of god/first cause yet - so all we have are all of these logic games like Pascal's Wager and other silliness.
Where belief really drops the ball is in asserting things not in evidence. Myth is not fact, it is mere assertion.

There are two ways to view Reality. One is the scientific, which examines only the universe. The other is the spiritual, which examines not only the universe, but all of Reality. Both are valid and non-contradictory.

Myth is fact. That most people lack the ability to correctly interpret myth and thus are not able to recognize myth as fact, does not invalidate the truth of myth.

The incarnated gods have performed at least three different creation rituals.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 6:21:29 AM

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Rule:

I've tried to follow you down this road before, but usually it's a dead-end.

Prove any myth to me spiritually, without reliance on empirical evidence of any kind. In other words, use the spiritual/reality techniques you claim exist to know that myth is fact.

In advance, I'll just call bullshit. And please don't blather on about the evidence contained within an unpublished book of yours. I have a long memory and you didn't impress anyone back then either.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 2/5/2008 6:23:13 AM >

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 6:34:41 AM

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This discussion, like the many like it which have preceded here, is largely pointless. Within a few pages the trenches will be dug and the machine guns opening up, with little understanding still less sympathy shown by either side for the other.

I have experienced "God" or whatever word one might use. Although my experience tallies with that of many others, it will be discounted by both sides of the argument. It will be denounced as an episode of psychosis by one side or a presumptious and arrogant lie by the other - or even as a "work of the devil" or some such.

At the same time I have no problem whatever and indeed support - to the extent I understand it - the discoveries of scientific enquiry into quantum physics and the like. These complex and fascinating enquiries, ideas and discoveries - many of which by the admission of the physicists themselves are as outlandish as any mythical speculation - in no way preclude or disprove the presence of "God" (there's that word again) as I experienced that phenomenon. In fact I'd venture to say that they might explain that phenomenon, given my grasp of such matters as string theory is anything like accurate.

The real problem in a discussion such as this as I see it, is a fundamental misunderstanding - no, more than that a lack of understanding of what "God" is and does. The origin of this lack of understanding lies in the misunderstanding of what has been handed down to us, sometimes deliberate misunderstanding and sometimes simple mistaken understanding. "Seek, and ye shall find" is a valuable instruction to all, regardless of which side of the debate one stands.

E

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 6:37:56 AM

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quote:

It's not a belief as much as an acceptance of a fact.

So you don't believe in your own acceptance of a fact? Surely you do, otherwise your argument is pointless and on shaky ground if you yourself do not believe in your own position.
You seem to yearn for evidence, but never take into consideration that such evidence may never come about into our hands, much less understanding. Evidence might actually be here already, it is our problem that we fail to interpret it correctly and by what method. Besides, it would be hard for an agnostic or atheist to be suddenly be rid of their bias, and the more I think about it, the more I am sure that even if God were to show up and tell an atheist He is real, the atheist would still seek an explantion other than the obvious one in front of his face.
I guess it all comes down to perspective, and the world each one of us lives in, because each one sees, senses and interprets the world differently. But is it not interesting that all of the known civiliazations, however unconnected and scattered around the world, have had a faith and belief in some kind of god or gods? Surely they were onto something, and dismissing such a powerful notion quickly based on a relatively new and fashionable line of thinking is silly in and of itself.
I recall a fascinating interwiew years ago between a new generation geneticist and James Watson, one of the original "founding fathers" of genetics. The new geneticist insisted on the sterility and godlessness of genetics, while Watson claimed to see the work of god within the dna itself. It's all perspective, and in the end we shall all find out who's was correct, if either.

edited for mispelling

< Message edited by aviinterra -- 2/5/2008 6:40:19 AM >

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 6:42:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: christine1

great essay there, but why does it matter if some people believe in Santa and some don't? to each his own and all that good stuff. i'm just sayin...

Because some people are willing to blow up building filled with small women and children along with themselves to spend the rest of eternity with 33 virgin elves at the North Pole with Santa Clause?

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 6:46:27 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I have experienced "God" or whatever word one might use.

You became the Divine. I recall your experience and recognized it then as genuine. You are holy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
The real problem in a discussion such as this as I see it, is a fundamental misunderstanding - no, more than that a lack of understanding of what "God" is and does. The origin of this lack of understanding lies in the misunderstanding of what has been handed down to us, sometimes deliberate misunderstanding and sometimes simple mistaken understanding. "Seek, and ye shall find" is a valuable instruction to all, regardless of which side of the debate one stands.

Quite: a lack of the ability to comprehend. I do not suffer from this lack.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 6:52:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

To live life with no Belief, must be sad and scary.
I really can not even comprehend it.
I am serious, I feel very sorry for you.

That's really a mycopic way of looking at it. People seem to think that just because someone has surrendered their lives to some ill-tempered parent figure that they lack beliefs.

Faith and belief in God are only one kind of faith and belief.

I have faith in myself.
I have faith that I will be successful and happy, because of this faith in me and what I am capable of doing.
I have faith that this used car I bought won't crap out on me in the next 3 years.
I believe in what I know is right and wrong.

Just because these faiths and believes are brought about from logic, knowledge, and reasonable risk assessment and not by an ultimate faith that an ultimate being will make all these things happen or has assured me that my believes are well founded, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I think people are right on when they say you can't live without faith and belief. I just find it to be really narrow minded and lacking of much thought when people seem to think that faith and belief in God are the only kinds of faith and belief.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 6:56:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
...the more I am sure that even if God were to show up and tell an atheist He is real, the atheist would still seek an explantion other than the obvious one in front of his face.

That's ridiculous on its face. Empirical evidence is exactly what a skeptic seeks. God would still have to prove its claim (but what means I don't know, it depends on which god shows up and makes the claim).

But actual persuasive empirical evidence would be enough. The problem is that there isn't a single shred of proof either way. Logically we know that there is a first cause, the nature of it remains a mystery.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 7:00:07 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
Prove any myth to me spiritually, without reliance on empirical evidence of any kind. In other words, use the spiritual/reality techniques you claim exist to know that myth is fact.

Prove anything spiritually? I am sorry, my magic is too weak to prove anything spiritually. I cannot even heal myself.

More to the point: what you request is so far off base that it indicates that you have no clue at all what you are talking about. Myth is part of our universe and therefore to support myth as fact not spiritual evidence is required, but empirical evidence. See how far off base you are, asking for the opposite of what you should have asked for?

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 7:00:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

You became the Divine. I recall your experience and recognized it then as genuine. You are holy.

Thanks. Though I really wouldnt go as far as to claim holiness. I'm still the flawed and daft sod I ever was, after all; nowhere near enlightened I'm afraid and wouldnt pretend so.

I'd say I was extremely fortunate - although in the sense that one makes one's own luck; I sought and I found - or rather I was seized and made aware, having sought.

E

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 7:06:04 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
God would still have to prove its claim (but what means I don't know, it depends on which god shows up and makes the claim).

Better hurry up and define your requirements. If you do not have any, he or she might walk past you on the sidewalk without you being able to recognize him or her.

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 7:07:30 AM

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LadyEllen:

I don't claim an understanding of your experience of the divine, but I do seem to recall that you claimed to be a follower of a neopagan Ásatrú type faith. As it happens I have an enormous fondness for Norse myth, pageantry, ritual, and philosophy - I really do. But don't you find it at least a little revealing that the subject of your faith is equally the subject of books on mythology, comic books, cartoons, and movies?

The fact that something may be aesthetically captivating doesn't lend it a truth value of any kind. It's still just pretty stories with no foundation in reality.

The Lord of the Rings was a kind of redaction of northern European myths - does it mean that Tolkien's myth-making is true?

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 7:12:14 AM

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Rule:

Hey, you have the floor. Make your case. This medium of words on a screen stands ready.

Or can you not make your case even in your own terms?

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