RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:41:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
so smith, im thinking seeing a bunch of harleys go by, many of em flying the stars and bars, that just wouldnt warm the cockles of your heart like it does mine huh?

Nope. However, seeing it on the aforementioned Charger, with the keys belonging to ME, would.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
and i know theres no way to make it NOT disappear anywhere that it pisses enough folks off who are vocal and have money......but it is a symbol......it is not a plantation owner with a whip beating anyone down.....some may see that when they look at it, but some see something different.

Of course its a symbol. I used to always see it accompanying the bumper sticker that read "The south shall rise again." We all know that it won't. The ideals of the south are gone....it's just taking some longer to realize that than others. The simple truth: the south lost. They LOST. It's over......they should let it the fuck go already.

Let's say for the sake of argument the south were to 'attempt' to 'rise again.' It would be over LONG before it started. Hard to start and win a war, when the "other side" already has multiple, FULL military bases in your own territory. Civil War II = over. It ain't hard to imagine. Sure, there's a lot of redneck militias and gun-nuts out there, but they can't stand up to the might of the U.S. Military.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
so when will they ban the rainbow flag? all malcolm x symbols?

My guess would be when the Malcom X symbols or rainbow flags are being used by a country that LOST a war, that's also commonly used to support racism.

Funny though, I don't see that happening. I mean sure, ok, the Malcom one is a bit racist in my view. But I've seen what....two or three of those in my life.....vs. how many rebel flags?

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:42:17 PM

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Usually the first to scream racism is the racists....
Amazing how history gets distrorted when racism shows up...

(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:42:24 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

so when will they ban the rainbow flag?

This is the second time the rainbow flag has surfaced in this thread, and this gay guy has to object.

The rainbow flag was not flown by slaveowners, nor by people turning firehoses and attack dogs on unarmed civil rights marchers. The rainbow flag was not the battle emblem of people who waged literal war against the United States. Comparing it to the Confederate flag is completely boneheaded.

dc, you are on point as usual.
I totally agree, I wonder how many would feel seeing a Swastika Flag hanging outside when
they wake up in the morning.
That is sort of how I feel when I see a Confederate Flag, do you feel me?

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/2/2008 7:45:28 PM >

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:44:32 PM

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Thats how I feel when people put up big crosses too.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:44:49 PM

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Get over it, it's a culture of people who are resisting being assimilated by another. It's not the end of the world to not want to be "uniformly correct"

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:46:10 PM

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Irishknight please remind me what constitutional right to secede you are referring to.No southern rights had been impeded the federal government had committed no acts of aggression.There's no provision in the constitution that allowed one section of the country nor one or more states to secede simply because they don't like the outcome of an election.While it's certainly true most who died for that flag were not slaveholders,they surely died in defence of slavery whether knowingly or not

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:46:29 PM

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FR

Interesting how black people not wanting be beaten or killed by white people, or enslaved by Europeans and their descendants, is supposed to make the victims 'racists', and those defending the atrocities tolerant.

Again, folks are free to swallow any load they want, I'll pass.

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:48:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Irishknight please remind me what constitutional right to secede you are referring to.No southern rights had been impeded the federal government had committed no acts of aggression.There's no provision in the constitution that allowed one section of the country nor one or more states to secede simply because they don't like the outcome of an election.While it's certainly true most who died for that flag were not slaveholders,they surely died in defence of slavery whether knowingly or not

I suspect that it is only a matter of time before at least one of our resident pundits trots out the 10th amendment and the imaginary 'state's rights' to violate any citizen's rights they please.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:48:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Of course its a symbol. I used to always see it accompanying the bumper sticker that read "The south shall rise again." We all know that it won't. The ideals of the south are gone....it's just taking some longer to realize that than others. The simple truth: the south lost. They LOST. It's over......they should let it the fuck go already.

Let's say for the sake of argument the south were to 'attempt' to 'rise again.' It would be over LONG before it started. Hard to start and win a war, when the "other side" already has multiple, FULL military bases in your own territory. Civil War II = over. It ain't hard to imagine. Sure, there's a lot of redneck militias and gun-nuts out there, but they can't stand up to the might of the U.S. Military.

all i can say to that is.....i reckon its a southern thing......you just wouldnt get it......your ideas of what southern values and traditions stand for is so far off theres no bridge long enough....

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:51:46 PM

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we can all sit here and debate over the "Great Unpleasantness" as my Ma-Ma's family still calls it till we are blue in the face.

There were *many* reasons why we as a Nation devided and went to war with one another.

The thing is.... the Confederate flag has been so over used by hate mongers in horrible ways durring the civil rights movement, and before it that it has tainted what it originaly ment in the hearts and minds of the nation at large.

At one time it was simply a symbol of Southern Pride, and the Confederate Army. Just as was stated... with Hitler having taken up the *very* ancient swaztika of India ( also of the Celtic tribes as it had traveled ) it has *become* a symbol of hatred and radical thinking that helped to wipe out large numbers of people and entomb and enslave them.

As with what is called "hate speech" we can try to "reclaim" it... "take it back" but it takes a long amount of time.. and generaly the repressed group of people it once was used apon are the ones to use it solely with any result other then abject refusal and horror. ( The N word, Faggot, Dyke, ect are used with in those groupings.. but not outside of them )

Yes.. words and symbols are just that... words and symbols... but since man stood upright and got it in his mind to oppress his brothers he has used words and symbols to rally behind that oppression.

Can we get past it? can we "get over it" as so many quaintly state we should? I hope and pray we can... but it takes time and healing.. and we are no where near there so long as *that* type of prejudice and hatred exist. Words and symbols do harm.. they do de-humanize the people who are not "just like us". How often do we hear "Those people"? "Those people" are always put down and allowed to be marginalized. it is no big deal if someone harms "those people" they are not "us".

Words and symbols carry weight.

At some point we do have to say enough is enough. But when a symbol is activily being used for hate.. it should have no place in the public realm. Esp. one known to be devisive.

Gwyn

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(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:53:33 PM

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It was mentioned earlier in this thread that there was a provision in the constitution for secession. Maybe you came in a bit late to see that. Aggression does not always have to be military. It can be through political action. Since many of you have said and agreed that the election just changed the timing of an event that was going to happen anyway, there is no need to argue about the election. I, in fact, didn't mention it.
The southern states believed that their established way of life was under attack. They moved to defend their way of life. The moment they did, everyone on all sides knew that war was inevitable.
It was a big political game of "You can't tell me what to do," that caused alot of American deaths. If we erase every physical reminder, then we are likely to repeat it again. The flag serves as one such reminder.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:54:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Fast reply - well, after a little bit of digging around I discovered that John McCain Himself doesn't particularly like the confederate flag.

quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- One of the loudest boos from the audience tonight came as an Internet questioner from Philadelphia asked if South Carolina "should be free to fly the Confederate flag from state buildings."

The question was directed to Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, who had trouble with this question during the 2000 primary season.

Campaigning in South Carolina in 2000, McCain initially said the flag was "a symbol of heritage" and a decision to remove it was a state issue.

He later changed his mind, and explained his turnaround: "I feared that if I answered honestly, I could not win the South Carolina primary. So I chose to compromise my principles."

After intense negotiations, the Confederate flag in 2000 was removed from State Capitol dome but now flies over a monument to the Confederacy on the capitol grounds.

In tonight's debate, McCain said "I still believe that it should not have flown over the Capitol, and I was wrong when I said that it was a state issue... But now I think it has been settled, and I think it's time that we all moved on on this issue."

CNN

Or if he likes it, he hides it well. Why do you think he flip-flopped so radically on the flag problem? And if it's of so little importance, why can't people let it go and work towards finding a new symbol of unity for the South? Genuinely curious.

It's not a matter of unity, it's a matter of history.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:55:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

. Just as was stated... with Hitler having taken up the *very* ancient swaztika of India ( also of the Celtic tribes as it had traveled ) it has *become* a symbol of hatred and radical thinking that helped to wipe out large numbers of people and entomb and enslave them.

Gwyn

Southwest American Indians used it hundreds of years before the Germans had thought of it.

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:57:03 PM

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Given the fact that so many countries around the world, including the ones that many American's ancestors came from, are still fighting over centuries old internecine strife, we are lucky to have only had the one.

(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:57:45 PM

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and would the General Lee have been as cool with the Irish flag on its top? I think not.

(in reply to CraZYWiLLiE)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 8:01:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

so when will they ban the rainbow flag?

This is the second time the rainbow flag has surfaced in this thread, and this gay guy has to object.

The rainbow flag was not flown by slaveowners, nor by people turning firehoses and attack dogs on unarmed civil rights marchers. The rainbow flag was not the battle emblem of people who waged literal war against the United States. Comparing it to the Confederate flag is completely boneheaded.

thank you!

well ya know.. since we are "the great cancer" and "Worse the terrorists" of course comparing a rainbow flag to any other isnt far behind. LOL

We are the new group it is popular to hate. As a black friend of mine who is a lesbian said.... I am a N once removed.. she is a N twice over. ~ I then reminded her I was Cherrokee... and she just threw her hands up.. and gave up the "oppression contest". All I need is a club foot, and a learning disability!

Gwyn

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 8:02:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
all i can say to that is.....i reckon its a southern thing......you just wouldnt get it......your ideas of what southern values and traditions stand for is so far off theres no bridge long enough....

It doesn't matter what I think it stands for or if I 'get it.' The simple, undeniable fact is, they LOST. Running around with flags and bumper stickers saying "the south shall rise again" just makes those people look like they belong licking windows on a shortbus.

They even address the sensitivity issue in the recent Dukes movie. When the Dukes were getting yelled at in traffic and then climbed out the window to see the flag on their roof....and they just said "Damnit Cooter! Yeah....this is going to make us REAL popular up here."

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 8:04:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

and would the General Lee have been as cool with the Irish flag on its top? I think not.

Maybe they should have called it the General Grant and put the Union flag on it. They did win after all. What's the symbolism behind putting a losing general's name and flag on your car? Destined to lose?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 8:09:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Rights to do what?

To enjoy sovereignty within their boundaries, with minimal interference from the Federal government.

Something guaranteed every state under the 10th Amendment.

On what issues other than slavery were the feds interfering?

I'm not a Southerner, so I don't have much of a stake in the issue, but even I remember from basic history classes that there were numerous issues, mainly economic, that started the war. If ending slavery had been the goal then why wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation not issued until long after the war began? People also conveniently forget that five slave-holding states were part of the Union.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/2/2008 8:22:37 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 8:18:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I'm..... leery everytime I see a Stars and Bars. I know far too many who see it as a "fuck you" to black people.

And I'm sure all the African flags that are popularized by the "black people" you mention are just as good intentioned...LOL.

(in reply to Level)

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