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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:34:03 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Interesting.....What was the defining issue?


States' Rights.  Slavery was a convenient excuse.


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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:35:22 PM   
kittinSol


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Rights to do what?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:36:34 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

French is a far more rigid language than English. There's a venerable institution over there, l'Académie française , that actually regulates the use of the language and authorises (or doesn't) new words. It's a bit of a laugh, but it's powerful - it bathes in traditions.

Do you mean that some Southerners are attached to the flag as a symbol the same way the Académie française is preventing the French language from evolving?


French? Oh sure it is!
That must be why they put letters on the ends of words and then don't pronounce them.
How do you pronounce, "Le cheeseberger?"
Or did they ban that word?


< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/2/2008 5:50:06 PM >


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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:38:25 PM   
kittinSol


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English is a Germanic language: much, much more pragmatic and down to earth.

Or, is it ?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:40:34 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Rights to do what?

To enjoy sovereignty within their boundaries, with minimal interference from the Federal government.

Something guaranteed every state under the 10th Amendment.


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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:41:36 PM   
MissSepphora1


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Just wondering why you care?
And what the hell happened to freedom of speech?


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

So... why are they building that flag again?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:47:10 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

As long as a piece of fabric or a word holds power over a group, those persons will always be "enslaved".  Rise above it.. get over it..move forward. Quit giving it power. 

I've heard this before, that folks should rise above it...and one of the better replies is "sure, when you get over losing the war!"

thornhappy

   Being I'm  a "Yankee" by birth.. it's a non-issue.  I would not begrude the "Rebs" their own heritage.  Not all history is pretty.  Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:49:56 PM   
slvemike4u


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To enjoy sovereignty within their boundaries, with minimal interference from the Federal government.

Something guaranteed every state under the 10th Amendment.

what interferance might those states have feared from the federal government in 1860 except on issues of slavery and the spread of/or as the south preferred to call it diffussion of....

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:50:26 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Rights to do what?

To enjoy sovereignty within their boundaries, with minimal interference from the Federal government.

Something guaranteed every state under the 10th Amendment.



On what issues other than slavery were the feds interfering?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:02:44 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Just wondering why you care?
And what the hell happened to freedom of speech?


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

So... why are they building that flag again?



I'm interested. Happy?  

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:03:30 PM   
dcnovice


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Did a bit of Googling and came across an 1860 Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union. Excerpts below. It certainly sounds if slavery, or the threat of its "extinction," was a key factor in their decision to secede.

quote:

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.


quote:

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.



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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:05:37 PM   
kittinSol


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People will always try to outsmart historical documents and interpret them in a light that's favourable to their point of view. Seems like we're right in front of a serious case of that.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:12:46 PM   
Archer


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Well there is the little matter of northern states pusing through taxes (tarriffs) on agricultural goods that were being shipped to Europe by the southern states bypassing northern factories. 

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:14:46 PM   
dcnovice


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Archer, are you honestly saying the South seceded over tariffs?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:36:51 PM   
dcnovice


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In his farewell speech to the U.S. Senate, Jefferson Davis said, "It has been a conviction of pressing necessity, it has been a belief that we are to be deprived in the Union of the rights which our fathers bequeathed to us, which has brought Mississippi into her present decision. She has heard proclaimed the theory that all men are created free and equal, and this made the basis of an attack upon her social institutions; and the sacred Declaration of Independence has been invoked to maintain the position of the equality of the races."

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that "social institutions" is a polite code for "slavery."

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/2/2008 6:38:14 PM >


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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:46:29 PM   
dcnovice


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In his second inaugural address, Davis said, "When a long course of class legislation, directed not to the general welfare, but to the aggrandizement of the Northern section of the Union, culminated in a warfare on the domestic institutions of the Southern States--when the dogmas of a sectional party, substituted for the provisions of the constitutional compact, threatened to destroy the sovereign rights of the States, six of those States, withdrawing from the Union, confederated together to exercise the right and perform the duty of instituting a Government which would better secure the liberties for the preservation of which that Union was established."

In plain English, Davis is basically saying, "When the North passed laws that threatened slavery, we seceded."

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:47:47 PM   
DesFIP


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I bet somebody will refuse them a zoning variance to do this. Build the museum first, and it might pass. Try to put up the flag first? Doubtful.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 6:56:19 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

English is a Germanic language: much, much more pragmatic and down to earth.

Or, is it ?

Isn't English actually a bastard language that has its roots in German, French, Spanish, Latin, and just about every other language we could steal words from?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:00:58 PM   
kittinSol


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It's a Germanic language, with Latin, Greek, French and other influences of dubious origins. No indo-european language is 'pure' of other influences: hell, there are even Arabic words that we use everyday. Sorry for the hijack.

PS: but it is mostly Germanic: the roots of the language stem from what is now Germany. It's those Germans that went to live in the British Isles that are responsible.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/2/2008 7:02:03 PM >


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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 7:02:20 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

But if it were a rainbow flag...
I buy my friends up in Massachusetts coffee cups with the confederate flag on them, they love them!
They take them to work with them as a conversation starter.


no sweetie.. we fly the Rainbow flag in my town of Gulfport...

one of the Gayest towns in America and damn proud of it!

almost every biz has a rainbow flag in the window...

We had a huge Lesbian womens festival here just a couple of months ago.

I love my little town!

Gwyn

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