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RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:25:02 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
In the end, isn't it all semantics?

Only for people who use words as fantasy playtoys, instead of connecting them to the real lives of real people.

But, I do believe the words are true.
I DO believe some people are "natural slaves" and "Natural Dominants".

I said that, for those that get their panties in a bunch over it.
There are many things in life, I don't agree with or believe, but I don't usually go on and on, over
terms or things I don't believe in.
Many here, especially the "open minded" go fucking nuts because people view things in a different manner.
What is that all about?

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/4/2008 9:26:19 PM >

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(in reply to RedMagic1)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:25:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKaton
Perhaps that is how I should phrased the original question/comment...

That is really the gist of what I am asking. Labels notwithstanding, we believe it exists for Dom/mes and submissives. Can the same be said for slaves...

Katon that is the issue- it exists for EVERYONE, it always has. Everyone has certain relationship dynamics they are inclined towards and everyone feels a deep organic place of freedom within themselves when they form those dynamics within positive fulfilling relationships.

That it happens to be slave or dom or master or whatever is pretty irrelevant.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SirKaton)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:27:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I said that, for those that get their panties in a bunch over it.
There are many things in life, I don't agree with or believe, but I don't usually go on and on, over
terms or things I don't believe in.

Do you think that's what's happening here? Because we aren't the ones who started the thread, we didn't just decide to lambast ideas, someone asked openly for opinions. And then that person AND OTHER decided to engage in even more debate when those honest opinions were brought up.

So who is the one going on and on? The ones who start and then increase the discussion? Or the ones who say nothing until a specific question is asked and honest answers are requested?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:27:13 PM

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an interesting topic, wish i could have caught it a little sooner. so at this point i'll just say that i do believe that one can be a "natural" slave, in that they take, or would take, to that position/role in life like a newborn turtle takes to swimming. it's just something within them, it's difficult for them to thrive in a non-slavery situation. however, until they are actually owned, i would not call such a person a slave. perhaps i'd say, they were born to be a slave, or something along that line.

i also wanted to comment on an analogy KnightofMists made about keys and locks. well, imo when you're talking about a natural submissive, natural slave, natural whatever, it's not a matter of keys and locks. a natural submissive does not have to be matched with the right and true Dominant for her in order to submit, a natural submissive simply submits. if the submission is dependent upon the qualities of some outside force, then imo that does not fall under the heading of natural submission. but there are many, many different and often contradictory beliefs on that issue, and it's not likely that there will ever be any concensus on that one.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:30:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

[Katon that is the issue- it exists for EVERYONE, it always has. Everyone has certain relationship dynamics they are inclined towards and everyone feels a deep organic place of freedom within themselves when they form those dynamics within positive fulfilling relationships.

That it happens to be slave or dom or master or whatever is pretty irrelevant.

um yes... but even thou people have these inclinations.. sometimes they are strangely unaware of them at the same time. How often have we seen those that discover the lifestyle get out of the unfulfilling vanilla relationship of many years and strike out to live what is in their heart.... you know... being the Natural X and all. If they are so Natural... we didn't they find it some 20 years plus ago.. or 3 bad relationships ago.....

Because just because there is natural aspects.. don't make it a complete deal.... nuturing is part of the process... which as I said before can sometimes happen with dumb luck.

_____________________________

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:35:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Katon that is the issue- it exists for EVERYONE, it always has. Everyone has certain relationship dynamics they are inclined towards and everyone feels a deep organic place of freedom within themselves when they form those dynamics within positive fulfilling relationships.

That it happens to be slave or dom or master or whatever is pretty irrelevant.

Instinctively I guess I know that.

Admittedly, the concept of slavery in this context and the place where that desire comes from is new to me. Up until a few days ago, I was operating on the concept that a submissive and a slave were interchangeable terms when I am seeing they are two totally different things.

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....before me there was none; after me there shall be no more...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:36:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKaton
Admittedly, the concept of slavery in this context and the place where that desire comes from is new to me. Up until a few days ago, I was operating on the concept that a submissive and a slave were interchangeable terms when I am seeing they are two totally different things.

The fun part of course is that one person can be a slave AND a submissive, as well as many other orientations simultaneously.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SirKaton)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:36:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

But, I do believe the words are true.
I DO believe some people are "natural slaves" and "Natural Dominants".

I said that, for those that get their panties in a bunch over it.
There are many things in life, I don't agree with or believe, but I don't usually go on and on, over
terms or things I don't believe in.
Many here, especially the "open minded" go fucking nuts because people view things in a different manner.
What is that all about?

My panties are unbunched but, frankly, this place would be pretty dull if there weren't good-spirited debate.

I think it's all poetics. I think the idea of having mutiple hearts for your mutiple passions is extremely poetic and not a concept to be taken seriously. It's a beautiful notion, as is the idea that my heart beats in time with Valyraen's. But reality is that it doesn't, though we do have a deep connection that is sometimes best explained with poetic terms.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/4/2008 9:48:05 PM >

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:39:01 PM

mbes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKaton

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbes

Come to think of it, yes, I believe it's possible to be a slave without being either particularly submissive, or "a submissive". I should, since I'm not really submissive at all in the ways that many seem to use the word, but my preference is to be owned. I'm one of those quirky ones that doesn't fit in any of the little boxes well.
I don't see any role as inherently superior to, or "more" than, or beyond any other. The only difference is which roles fit best.
Fun discussion, though!

Fun indeed.

Far be it from me to try to put you in a box (and this is purely an educational question, not a challenge), but how can one be owed if they do not submit their will to that of their owner?

It's a fine line, and one probably best suited for another thread, since this one is so happily going in another direction (and has been so much fun to read!)
Simply, my interest lies in his freedom to do as he wishes with me, regardless of my submission or lack thereof. I don't know a better way to put it, I've been searching a while for that expression. I just know every time I read descriptions of submissive people or definitions of the word submissive, they aren't me!

This thread has given me things to think about, so it's all good with me.

(in reply to SirKaton)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:41:05 PM

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For me, i want to live a life that is satisfying and fulfilling and that means doing something that i can be accomplished at and that gives me a sense of purpose.

Having a strong desire for something isn't enough. i have spent my life, since childhood, having a very strong, very deep, very intense desire to make music and, i have tried and, i have been extremely frustrated because no matter how hard i tried and, in spite of my deep desire, i just didn't have whatever it takes to be able to do that. i took violin lessons, guitar lessons and keyboard and, i just couldn't manage to make music. i can't sing, can barely keep a beat and can't learn a dance to save my life. And, yet the desire to make music, in some form, is still as strong as ever.

i have a sister who picked up a guitar, sat in front of the TV and watched and learned the basics from a PBS show and then taught herself the rest and became a very accomplished guitarist. She then taught herself piano and plays that beautifully.

She just had a 'natural born' knack for making music. i didn't. Does that make her 'better' than me? Better at making music, yes. But, better? No. And, if i could have actually accomplished making music, even if i had had to work at it, i wouldn't be any less of a musician than she was. i just would have had to put a lot more effort into it.

But, ever since i can remember, i had a knack for doing things for others that made their life easier and happier and i liked the feeling doing that gave me. So, i have always been drawn to serving others. i didn't go to class to learn to do this. It just was a part of me. i just had a knack for it.

i had a 'natural' tendency to serving others. It has always been easy for me and gave me a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction, knowing that i had a useful purpose.

Living on my own, as a single, working mom, for many years and having to make the decisions about, not only my own life but, also the life of my offspring, was very difficult and frustrating for me. i hated it and i was driven to find someone who i could feel sure enough about to turn my life over to. When my Master took control of me, i didn't have to 'unlearn' anything. i fell right into place as His property and listening to Him and obey His decision, as if i had been born to it. It was the easiest thing i have ever done.

At the very heart of my being, i am a natural servant. i never had to 'work' at it or 'try' to be a servant. It just happened. It was always a very natural thing for me to do.

joy
Owned servant of Master David

< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 6/4/2008 9:48:20 PM >

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:41:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
but even thou people have these inclinations.. sometimes they are strangely unaware of them at the same time.

Plenty of examples of this being true for homosexuality too. Slaveheartedness is not special in any way here.

This is what I see going on.

The OP seems like a standup guy, who had a touching realization about a relationship he's in. He posted, and was surprised but interested by the responses. The posters who contribute to the forums to share experiences -- instead of mental masturbation -- all basically said, "Poetic phrase, but not really the deal."

God knows I can be all SappyDom, with poetry and cuteness and general romantic mush. But poetry is not the same as real life. Poetry simplifies, prettifies, emphasizes, parts of real life. It is ok for art to be "redundant."

The problem arises when people take a fundamentally artsy term like "slave heart" and try to use it in a scientific way.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:41:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The fun part of course is that one person can be a slave AND a submissive, as well as many other orientations simultaneously.

I am at the end of an 18 hour day and here you go trying to make my head explode wrapping my mind around THAT...lol...

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....before me there was none; after me there shall be no more...

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RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:43:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mbes This thread has given me things to think about, so it's all good with me.

Good to know this writing/sharing/debating/learning has not been in vain...I will be interested to hear how you define yourself when you get the right words that fit you.

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....before me there was none; after me there shall be no more...

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RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:44:09 PM

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Heh, have you met a slave who is not submissive? THOSE are some interesting peeps.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SirKaton)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:47:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

The OP seems like a standup guy, who had a touching realization about a relationship he's in. He posted, and was surprised but interested by the responses.

Indeed, on all accounts...

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....before me there was none; after me there shall be no more...

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RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:48:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Heh, have you met a slave who is not submissive? THOSE are some interesting peeps.

Not yet, but I am sure it will happen if I keep hanging around you condemned folks...

< Message edited by SirKaton -- 6/4/2008 9:49:05 PM >

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....before me there was none; after me there shall be no more...

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RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:48:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKaton

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The fun part of course is that one person can be a slave AND a submissive, as well as many other orientations simultaneously.

I am at the end of an 18 hour day and here you go trying to make my head explode wrapping my mind around THAT...lol...

it all depends on how one defines the terms SirKaton. i am both a slave and a submissive. a slave because i'm owned by someone, and a submissive because that is my nature/personality. as others have already mentioned, a slave need not necessarily be submissive. many slaves actually do not have a submissive nature or personality at all, yet they may be exceptional slaves. i define one as an inborn trait, like brown skin or blue eyes, and the other as a station, like doctor, teacher, priest.

(in reply to SirKaton)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 9:57:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
it all depends on how one defines the terms SirKaton. i am both a slave and a submissive. a slave because i'm owned by someone, and a submissive because that is my nature/personality. as others have already mentioned, a slave need not necessarily be submissive. many slaves actually do not have a submissive nature or personality at all, yet they may be exceptional slaves. i define one as an inborn trait, like brown skin or blue eyes, and the other as a station, like doctor, teacher, priest.

Help me understand that. To be an exceptional slave, the person has to remove their will from the equation in deference to their owner, i.e. submit to another person's will. Without that component, how then can a person exist as a slave?

_____________________________

....before me there was none; after me there shall be no more...

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RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 10:03:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKaton

Help me understand that. To be an exceptional slave, the person has to remove their will from the equation in deference to their owner, i.e. submit to another person's will. Without that component, how then can a person exist as a slave?

because one can submit (the act) without being "a" submissive. when a cop pulls you over and asks to see your license and you hand it over, you are submitting to his will. but that does not make you a submissive person. slaves who are not submissive by nature make the choice to submit to the will of their Owner. it could be out of admiration, respect, love, whatever. but they are not driven by a need an instinct to serve and please another, as one with a submissive nature would be.

(in reply to SirKaton)

RE: Natural Slavery - 6/4/2008 10:07:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKaton
Help me understand that. To be an exceptional slave, the person has to remove their will from the equation in deference to their owner, i.e. submit to another person's will. Without that component, how then can a person exist as a slave?

I disagree. To be an exceptional slave, it must be an act of will. You can not serve anyone if you have no will of your own. An exceptional slave serves out of love, out of loyalty, out of a driving inner need to serve - not because you told them to.

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Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to SirKaton)

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