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RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/12/2008 11:01:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper Stormslave, How can you ask for perspective by suggesting we not compare one situation to another similar one? We've established that many times advice is not "needed" when given, and that people have every right to respond with hostility and blunt rejection. Making a thoughful suggestion is not the same as someone telling you "BDSM: yer doin it wrong". The OP's original statement, as I understand it, would sound more like "Excuse me, but I was wondering if you considered the ramifications later in life of having nude pictures, including the face, on the internet? I know a few people who have been discriminated against for that reason." The real question here is "should people mind their own business"? Ask America in 1938. Not involving yourself when you see something wrong is an option. Involving yourself when something is wrong is also an option. Treating kind strangers who are looking out for you and yours like shit is also an option. Its important to keep your mind open. You may be wrong and they may be right. Sometimes you have to change. That's my stance.

Perspectives were requested. I offered mine. shrug. So what if it's the same as someone else's or if it agrees with what has already been said. You the CM police? I thought there were moderators for that.

As for the rest, no the fuck, FGM and spousal abuse don't begin to compare to this. Getting involved when some guy is trying to kill his wife (or vice versa) or making a stand against an atrocity like FGM is way the hell different than offering unwanted and unneeded advice to two consenting adults. Yes, it is the advice giver assuming they know better and presuming to tell someone the right way to do it.

It's fine to offer advice to people whom you know. Where I come from offering unsolicited advice, no matter how well meaning, is meddling. Unless you are asked or are related, MYOB.

edited to add: heaven...I always use fast reply. easier since I access this through my PDA. Was responding to the OP.

< Message edited by StormsSlave -- 7/12/2008 11:30:16 PM >

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RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/12/2008 11:14:11 PM

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Don't know all that. What I do know is that you sound like the kind of dom I hope to find someday. Your submissive is fortunate.

(in reply to WMPerv)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/12/2008 11:18:34 PM

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Joined: 8/28/2007
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Indeed it may not have been "his business". However, how difficult would it be to stop and think for just a moment before responding. Take time to realize that his thoughts were not expressed as condemnation but merely as a result of his thinking in terms of how he views his submissive and what he would like done for her. A brutal response to a thoughtful post does not accomplish much does it?

(in reply to sambamanslilgirl)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/13/2008 12:19:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

Batshalom, you made three points in response to me. I'd like to address them all.

3) No one ever wants to hear that they aren't perfect. They never want to hear about how they're wrong. In giving someone advice you are always suggesting they are imperfect in some manner. People don't want to hear it. Even the people who understand no one is perfect don't want to hear it.

And I shall reply to your reply. Thank you for keeping it civil, HK.

Specifically on my mind is the #3 I quoted. No one ever wants to hear that they aren't perfect. This includes the advice-giver. In giving advice, he or she is postulating that he or she is somehow superior (and it's harder to make a statement when the person who is supposed to be on the receiving end of this higher moral ground is no longer listening, eh?).

Morality IS subjective, very much so. The way I do things, the way I think about things, and the way I live my life is VERY objectionable to some (my mother included); and similarly, the way others live, think and act can be very objectionable to me. Time to intervene is, again, up to subjective interpretation by each of us. You intervene when you see fit, I'll intervene when I see fit, and we'll each take our lumps as they come.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/13/2008 12:29:31 PM

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While your intentions might have been good, you've intruded into someone else's dynamic. I'm sure someone out there has been by burned by something you regularly practice and you'd be just as unhappy if someone inserted themselves into your relationship. Beyond that, she's an adult. If she hasn't stopped to think out the possible ramifications of her actions and decisions, she has no one to blame but herself.

_____________________________

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(in reply to batshalom)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/13/2008 11:07:47 PM

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Stormslave,

We both agree that there are times third parties must involve themselves. I'm happy about that. We disagree on the interpretation of "perspective". Again, I consider the more serious charges similar because they are all situations in which people are engaging in risks, some of whom may not be aware of the risk, and some may. I'm neither moderator nor CM police, but I am an interested party. This entitles me to scrutinize any post I read and respond accordingly. So long as I remain civil and professional, there shouldn't be any problems. Perhaps what you call "drama" I call "discourse"?

I agree that unsolicited advice is meddling, but I don't see meddling as a bad thing. I understand that my views are not the accepted societal standard, but I'm ok with that. Appealing to the standard is dangerous. (But so is deviancy).

Batshalom,

I'm not sure what the "and it's harder to make a statement... no longer listening, eh?" statement means, but I do agree. Everyone thinks their right, and when there are contradictory views it implies something is wrong.

Whether morality is subjective or not is a larger longer battle. Bigger names than we have spent their entire lives duking out that point. For now, I will say that I feel principles can be right or wrong if carefully written for a "gold standard". Let us leave it for another post.

I agree that we all feel the "need" to intervene at different times, but the important point is that we feel that standing up for what we believe is right (in this case, intervening), especially in the face of adversary. You stand up against your mother to live your lifestyle. WMPerv stood up for that possibly endangered submissive.

Whether WMPerv was right to stand up when he did is irrelevant, because it is subjective. The fact that WMPerv felt it was time, and acted on it is right. Again, he did the right thing.

_____________________________

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... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to StormsSlave)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/13/2008 11:48:47 PM

BKSir

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Well, on the one hand, I have to say that I admire you for your actions. If my pet, even... well, especially, at my orders, were to do something foolhardy, and someone brought that up to him, I would be, probably, thankful that they did, and expect my pet to bring it to my attention immediately. I want nothing to jeopardize his safety, least of all myself, be it knowingly or not. I might react favourably or otherwise, depending on the situation.

On the other hand, I do have to somewhat agree with the MYOB group, and wonder if you did not think through your decision fully (no, I do not mean any insult by this, please don't take it as such. god knows I've only thought ahead halfway more than my fair share), to realize that, although it's not something that you would have in your own relationship, it may be common and even greatly desired in theirs.

I really can't fault you, nor should I think anyone else though. You did what you thought was right, and no one was actually harmed by your actions. Next time, perhaps, consider things a bit farther though, I would advise. Otherwise, kudos to you for trying to do the right thing, despite how it turned out. If more people would try to help and look out for the well being of others, yes, there would still be disagreements, but, I believe that the world would be a far better place.

(in reply to WMPerv)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/13/2008 11:56:26 PM

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From: Your imagination
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
... I don't need Captain Save-a-Ho.

*LMAO* A new super hero! Perhaps you should copyright it. *grins*

Although...I wouldn't mind having a Captain Save-a-Ho save me...*wistful smile*

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 10:04:11 AM

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Joined: 10/10/2007
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The d/s community is rife with newbies, on both the d and s side of the /. Those with experience often try, through forums such as this, to educate the inexperienced. The desire to protect is, or should be, inherent in a true dom, yet the MYOB advise of Dear Abby cums into play. The dynamics, to use that catch phrase, of the particular couple, are unknown, except for the sub's defiant attitude toward concerns expressed by the original poster of this thread. D/s lives in the minds of participants, and while a concern might possibly be expressed, it should be done with great tact. Humiliation, for some, is a tremendous turn on, and let no one forget the large number of exhibitionists in our community.

While the thought was good, perhaps the execution was lacking. One can also not discount the number of emails perhaps received by the submissive, in response to her posting of stimulating photos, and her subsequent mindset when she responded to the concerns expressed by the original poster.

(in reply to L8bloomer)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 10:29:39 AM

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Joined: 7/10/2008
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I also would have reacted aggressively. You were out of line. It's not your place to police the relationship of others. If I were the Dom I would have assumed you were trying to make a move on my sub and I would have let you have with both barrels.

(in reply to WMPerv)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 10:30:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjoedom

The d/s community is rife with newbies, on both the d and s side of the /. Those with experience often try, through forums such as this, to educate the inexperienced. The desire to protect is, or should be, inherent in a true dom, yet the MYOB advise of Dear Abby cums into play. The dynamics, to use that catch phrase, of the particular couple, are unknown, except for the sub's defiant attitude toward concerns expressed by the original poster of this thread. D/s lives in the minds of participants, and while a concern might possibly be expressed, it should be done with great tact. Humiliation, for some, is a tremendous turn on, and let no one forget the large number of exhibitionists in our community.

While the thought was good, perhaps the execution was lacking. One can also not discount the number of emails perhaps received by the submissive, in response to her posting of stimulating photos, and her subsequent mindset when she responded to the concerns expressed by the original poster.

Yep, and there's the difference.

From what I'm understanding from the OP, this wasn't an issue that was brought to the boards because either of the people in the actual dynamic had a problem with it. The deal was that the OP had a problem with it, based on his (and his submissive's) prior experience. His opinion wasn't asked for, so he really didn't have the right to intrude.

These boards are wonderful for getting practical advice from people who have been there and done that. Bringing a question to the boards, and people having input on them, is something much different than seeking someone out on the other side to impose a person's view of a "danger" in a dynamic.

_____________________________

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(in reply to stjoedom)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 11:23:04 AM

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In my world, the only folks I don't mind meddling are my folks, my sister, and my UM's. Definitely NOT from a stranger.

My kink is no one's business. If I were in mortal danger, please pull me from in front of the bus. If My Man ordered me to give him head under the table, a stranger dropping by with "well-meant advice" that this could be bad if I got caught, well, you can imagine how that would be met. It's exactly the same. Unless someone is in mortal danger, MYOB.

_____________________________

Congratulate me...I'm a missus!!

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RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 3:02:34 PM

MasterDragon1963

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This is going to be one of those paradoxs were the fox eludes the hound. One of the founding concepts the lifestyle functions under is that just because one persons kink isnt another persons kink doesn't make it good or bad, only that it isnt theirs. Different strokes for different folks. Even the aspect of consent is up for argument, depending on the dynamics. Who has what to say about who and under what and when conditions. Not to mention the "newbie shock factor". Finding a "line" upon the sand that determines what is and isnt "too far" is quite elusive. Most people have the "shut the fuck up and stay out" approach. And for good reason. many things that appear "too far" are not, and who is it to judge if it is. Yet it is safe to say that there is a certain element of preditors and "evil doers" who do beat and abuse, who cross the line into forbidden waters, and who use that very "shut the fuck up and stay out" sign as a means of hiding their crimes. If you want an example, look at the tokyo subways. Young girls raped in broad daylight in front of dozens of people, she wont scream from fear of shame, and the others wont interfere from "its not their business", and this element allows the rapist to to continue to stalk. I do find one aspect in the lifestyle that stands apart, when the victem asks for help. I quess the question would be, would an honorable Dom be right in giving aid to a slave who is begging for protection from their abusive Dom? Let that one roll around in the grinder for a minute and see what comes out.

Master Dragon

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RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 3:14:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

In my world, the only folks I don't mind meddling are my folks, my sister, and my UM's. Definitely NOT from a stranger.

My kink is no one's business. If I were in mortal danger, please pull me from in front of the bus. If My Man ordered me to give him head under the table, a stranger dropping by with "well-meant advice" that this could be bad if I got caught, well, you can imagine how that would be met. It's exactly the same. Unless someone is in mortal danger, MYOB.

Not that I am disagreeing, but a friendly "You might want to move the table cloth a bit, so that restaurant management and children can't see you as well" might be warranted.

Just sayin,
Thadius

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to StormsSlave)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 5:09:33 PM

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~Fast Reply~

Reading through this thread has made me wonder... how would I feel if a neighbor, having seen bruises or heard Val and I scening, decided she couldn't mind her own business anymore and reported Valyraen for domestic abuse?

Sometimes you just need to have all the details or MYOB.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 5:42:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper
1) I don't see morality as a subjective thing. Subjective morals allow for all sorts of crimes to be "moral." While there might be a blindingly powerful social exception for what couples do, I think it is objectively right to pay mind to what others are doing.

Wow. The false and completely unsubstantiated and unproven concept of "objective morals" has probably caused far more atrocities and harm in this world then the nihilistic idea of "subjective morality". A couple thousand years of Christian history with the hundreds of different prophets who have all had a direct link to the Originator of this objective morality provides enough proof of this.

How about the Crusades? All those paladins raping, murdering and pillaging in the Name of God.

I'm pretty sure at one point burning witches was the right to do according to the just and absolute objective morality of the time.

More modern times perhaps? Can't forget about all those saints wearing crosses bombing abortion clinics...

Or the objective morality presented to us by the Leviathan that keeps the immoral homosexuals out of wedlock (Need something to replace the lack of a logical argument).

I'm not against standing up for what you believe in, but I just hope your really really sure before taking action, because the road to hell is paved with good intentions as proved over and over again in history. It can't be a coincidence either that a lot of the people walking it are doing so because of "THE right thing" as opposed to what they "THINK the right thing is".

Such zealous behavior seems to be more the result of a egocentric "I know what's best for everyone" attitude and less the product of virtue.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 7/14/2008 5:46:01 PM >

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(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 6:07:33 PM

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Joined: 1/20/2007
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My sisters ex husband had taken pictures of her and showed them to the guys at work... I found it rather disgusting and distasteful for him to parade my sister around like a piece of meat, comparing her to other women deciding who was better looking and who had the nicest tits or whatever; she on the other hand, liked it. She liked the attention, granted my sister is a pathetic attention whore who would do anything for a few glances, but still she was into it. You should have talked to the master, or brought it up in a more curious manner and not a this is a bad idea kinda way. To each their own I say. Plus this is CM and you cant really play captain save a ho online unless you somewhat know the person on the other end of the screen. You said your thoughts and she said hers, leave it at that. Atleast you know in your heart you did what you felt was best, thats all that matters.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 10:38:19 PM

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you cant really play captain save a ho online unless you somewhat know the person on the other end of the screen.

and by the same token, you can't play "i'm a ho", putting photos up on a public website, and not expect people to respond.

solo digo,
sunshine

edited for grammar .. and to change english to spanish.

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 7/14/2008 10:39:27 PM >

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RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 10:45:42 PM

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Joined: 1/20/2007
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But that was the whole point of her posting them was for the responses. Wasnt that what was said? It was done for the humiliation so the responses were what was wanted... I dont think posting naked, "explicit" pictures of yourself makes you a ho... I was just using the phrase, I was not emplying that the girl was a ho. I dont think any woman is a "ho", no matter what she does. Not even if she spreads her legs for money. We all spread our legs for something, money is just another thing. Her posting her pictures for the responses to see what is going to be said for her master is hers and his business. You leave your comment about them, say your peace, and move on. If you dislike it, and you dont agree with the posting of the pictures then move on to another profile. No one is forcing anyone to look at them. That being said, the whole point of her posting them was for the attention.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Protecting your submissive - 7/14/2008 11:29:13 PM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDragon1963

This is going to be one of those paradoxs were the fox eludes the hound. One of the founding concepts the lifestyle functions under is that just because one persons kink isnt another persons kink doesn't make it good or bad, only that it isnt theirs. Different strokes for different folks. Even the aspect of consent is up for argument, depending on the dynamics. Who has what to say about who and under what and when conditions. Not to mention the "newbie shock factor". Finding a "line" upon the sand that determines what is and isnt "too far" is quite elusive. Most people have the "shut the fuck up and stay out" approach. And for good reason. many things that appear "too far" are not, and who is it to judge if it is. Yet it is safe to say that there is a certain element of preditors and "evil doers" who do beat and abuse, who cross the line into forbidden waters, and who use that very "shut the fuck up and stay out" sign as a means of hiding their crimes. If you want an example, look at the tokyo subways. Young girls raped in broad daylight in front of dozens of people, she wont scream from fear of shame, and the others wont interfere from "its not their business", and this element allows the rapist to to continue to stalk. I do find one aspect in the lifestyle that stands apart, when the victem asks for help. I quess the question would be, would an honorable Dom be right in giving aid to a slave who is begging for protection from their abusive Dom? Let that one roll around in the grinder for a minute and see what comes out.

Master Dragon

Honorable or not, if someone's sub actually came to me for help, I feel I would have no choice but to give it, in any way I could. But that's just who I am. If someone needs help, and asks it, I will do all I can. In general, unless it's obvious someone needs help, I'll not interfere until they ask... in general. Of course, if some little old lady in the market drops her items, I'll not hesitate to help, just out of, you know, not being a dick. So, for me, yeah, I guess, outside of being asked for help though, it would certainly depend on the circumstance.

(in reply to MasterDragon1963)

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