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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 9:37:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisHeavan
I'll be back in a pair of days to respond, but again, if you want to reply to me I respectfully request you do two things.
1) Answer the three italicized questions.
2) Check off which of the six principles you agree with.

*slave as defined by "feeling as if one's own consent doesn't matter"

Since you have ignored 60% of what I have said at your convience, I don't feel any need to do such a thing.

Continueing to ignore arguments and rehash the same defeated opinions isn't anymore impressive when you grandstand as some great moral hero.

It made me chuckle a bit though and as much as I hate to say it, it is really a representation of lack of life experience.

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(in reply to HisHeavan)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 9:53:16 PM

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~FR~

I must be a barbarian because a lot of this sounds like societal human rights bullshit. If someone chooses to be a slave, they are fucking meat. That is the life they have chosen. barring breaking any laws, do what the fuck you want to with them. There are many who wear the slave label and very few who are. I can see from many of the comments that most commenting (most means not all) have never come into contact with a slave, only those that play at it. There are no safe words, and I am the one that determines what is safe and sane. As far as consent, that was given when the property begs my collar. My way and there is no highway.

The website in questions offers some very good ways to assist in bringing about internal enslavement in those that already have the predisposition to be a slave. The process is a thing, neither good nor bad, the outcome depends upon the person, just like about everything in life.

BTW, angel knows more about slavery than most here know of the english language. I may not like her very much, but she knows her shit as far as being enslaved.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 11:29:15 PM

zenny

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We live in a world of opposites. The only exception being that change is inevitable. As such how can a person give consent when they can no longer not consent?

My and I think most peoples concern is not for the people who genuinely enjoy and find themselves in a good situation aligned with their previous desires but for those who don't. This is especially concerning in something which by nature conditions someone to no longer recognize their ultimate choice in the matter.

< Message edited by zenny -- 7/22/2008 11:30:07 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 5:05:29 AM

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is it the three month rule of thumb?...after three months you can tell if they are naturla or playing at it...someone mentioned that once...being that its too hard to keep up a facade for longer then that.....this slave thought they where joking...
it would be hard to "play" at 24/7 M/s with a strict Master.....**shivers at the thought***

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yep. Those that it is not part of their nature to be a slave, but they still pretend or play at it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pettingdragons

Are their un natural slaves?

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pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 5:21:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: monywildcat

Perhaps one can find un-natural slaves in the same aisle as the silk flowers and fake baby's breath at Garden Ridge. Look on the top shelf, that's where they hide the good stuff. lol

As for that site, there was too much psycho-babble for me to focus on at this point in time. I think after a few more beers and a nap I may be able to make sense of it all.

Bottoms up!

yippy!!! psycho-babble in full force!!! Oh yes they would be under the silk flowers....on the top shelf...if you can reach it dont ask for help....just a broom and knock it down....just be sure it doesnt fall on your head!! LOL

_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to monywildcat)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 11:36:01 AM

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Madrabbit, understand that my delay and inability to keep up with you stems from traveling and wanting to send the last 3 days I had with My Pet, not debating online. Yes, I have not done your arguments justice. Please make a post with any direct questions you want answered. While you may see my stance as a lack of experience I see your last response to me as childish. I'm trying to keep posts and ideas clear. Please make a list of questions you want answered. If you haven't edited them out of other posts it will be a simple c/p for you.

Responded at my convenience, via iPhone.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to pettingdragons)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 5:31:20 PM

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From: Louisville, KY
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quote:

I don't believe people should consent to putting themselves in a position to where they will not have the faculties to consent. Assuming this works, it would be very dangerous if the slave's owner were not a top notch guy.

Well, my owner happens to be a top-notch guy.
There is a separate and active corner of the lifestyle dedicated to this type of slavery, to which Master and I actively participate. I belong to a mailing list exclusively for slaves who have made this choice, (and, as much as it pains me to add this part - do not send me collarme mail wanting info on this wonderful list, unless you are able to read my profile to the bottom and follow the directions therein, because I am an active participant in collarmes current tech glitch, and am unable to send out collarme mail to answer your questions), and we drive 2 hours every month to attend a munch where almost every other female slave in attendance is also a member of that group.
More on point than the fact that Master, and all the other men there at that munch, of course, are, indeed, top-notch guys, is a more basic fact - i really couldn't give two cents rather or not you think my lifestyle choices are 'wise' or not. I don't care if you don't like permanent, non-revokable, lifetime consent. I don't care that you may not like consensual non-consent. I really don't care what you like. You don't get my 'rights' to hold for my 'protection' just because you do not like my chioces.
I get that you think that this is all together unwise. Trust me when I tell you that this country is full of people who think that the choices that you, or those who would be willing to enter into power exchange with you, are 'unwise.' I belonged to a church one time that was struggling with Poly issues. That was a classic argument - women that consented to be in poly relationships were not really consenting, because, since someone disagreed with them strongly, their consent did not count. They were, in the words of one dissenting church member, ' A bunch or desperate, brainwashed women with eating disorders trying to find a man to follow into the wood to drink the magic koolaid for him.' Your dismissive attitude of me and my decisions does not strike me as fundamentally different.

quote:

Let me clarify your analogy.

1) Wife who believes marriage is consenting to always having sex = slave who consents to be a slave with 0 rights.
2) You having sex with said wife = Slave being used in "appropriate" matters.
3) Wife not wanting to have sex = Slave not liking the situation.

No where in this analogy does either party want out. So no, it's not spousal rape. Lots of women begrudgingly have sex to get their man to stop poking them at 4:29 in the morning. If premise 3 were to say "Wife not wanting to have sex = Slave wanting to leave" then things would be different. A power exchange relationship is perfectly accepting of a slave not enjoying the dynamic. The question is the power to leave.

Here's what you don't seem to be getting - the slaves in these situations do not want to leave. your problem is that the slaves say that they are no longer capable of leaving. I am in such a situation, so i am not talking out of the side of my mouth.
So here are some things you should understand and consider:
1. I am not yet incapable of wanting to leave, no matter what. Slaves do NOT just decide to enter IE slavery. And by that, I do not just mean that the decision is not taken lightly - which it is NOT. I also mean that IE slavery is a slow road of growth that takes months and years. For literally months, usually years, a slave actively consents, over and over, to continuing the path towards IE. mail lists and groups dedicated to IE talk a LOT about how to achieve IE, how to deepen it, ect. These people are not using hypnotism, they are concisely deciding to progress towards the person they want to be and the mindset they want to achieve. It is not much different than a member of any religion choosing to study their religion and become more the persons, inside of that religions ideas, that they wish to be.
2. Please consider what the human mind is like, and what these changes probably are, really. I know slaves on my IE groups who have had to leave IE relationships. Most were released, but a few have chosen to leave. IE is a continuum, just like being the perfect wife or the perfect Christian or the perfect Budist. Somewhere, something is too much, and can break through the level which you have achieved. If you violate my trust to that level - a level that moves as I grow, but, unless I am claiming to be perfect, never achieves totality - if you violate past that point, i will walk. Can I imagine that happening with Him? No, absolutely not. Can I come up with some examples that would do it? Yes, rather they apply to Him, me, us, ect, or not, I can come up with some that would do it for me, that I don't believe I can grow enough, ever, that it wouldn't trip what I sometimes refer to as 'the big red internal NO button'. An example - a long time ago, in a different relationship, that former Master was speaking to an unowned sub. She had left her former Master because an nonnegotiable point for him was, he demanded the right to begin the 'training' of her 2 year old daughter into a proper slave. I don't think I can 'grow' into deep enough submission that I would not walk.
Are there consequences, in these extreme cases, to what I choose to do. You betcha. I have some unowned slaves on my group. Rather released or finding that they have to walk. coming back to self-claiming, after having been in a reasonably deep IE relationship, is hard and painful. I am aware of that cost, and I find this type of relationship rewarding enough that I am willing to bear that cost. Another cost is, it will take a lot for me to be the one who acknowledges that I need to walk - and, as the relationship grows deeper, the definition of 'A LOT', grows, too. But how is this different from women in some traditional relationships who do not believe (often upon pain of their imortal soul) that a wife should ever leave? Many conservative Christians do not believe that active alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling, child or spousal abuse are 'Biblical' reasons for leaving. Some conservative Muslims do not even believe a woman is free from her husband at his death, those women vow to never remarry. Are you willing to judge thousands of womens marriages as 'non-consensual' because you don't agree with their beliefs or their choices? When you start narrowing the definition of 'consensual' to something YOU can be more comfortable with, those are the consequences - most of all, the possibility that if it happened, this narrowing of 'consensual' to mean only people who make decisions you agree are wise, please be aware, someday they might kick you out of the descion making throne, and the next king might have a definition of consensual that does not include you or yours.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 6:22:16 PM

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Tsatske,

Your post was well written and speaks from experience. But I don't think we're arguing anything here. I think we both agree on all accounts.

First let me say I'm very happy that you and your master have a healthy powerful IE relationship in the works. It is a growing process and you two seem to be doing just fine.

Secondly, I'd like to say that your "consensual non-consent" is, in my eyes, just consent. That you feel free to leave, anytime you wish but choose not to means you consent to staying and all it entails.

If you understood me to be against IE, then you understood wrong. That said, my very first sentence in this thread was something to the tune of "I'm against it." which I did apologize and correct to be more specific. I'm not against power exchange, not even to the n'th degree. All I'm saying is that consent, by any decent definition of consent, must be present. For you, and the people of your group, it seems to be.

Many people are proud of their non-consent. Personally, I don't think such a thing exists. Either you consent or object. (For the record, not objecting and not consenting is still making a choice, though a poorly verbalized choice.)

I feel the principles I agree to concerning consent are generalizable to the public and impeccable. I'm not just some dude saying "this is right and this is wrong lol im funny!!" Those principles take time and effort to ensure that they are infallible. If you can shake my principles, I will gladly change my views to ensure they're upheld.

What is right or wrong is not up to me. It's up to principles that are fair for everyone. Some topics take more readily to this idea. Consent is one that eats up a generalized "right". Other issues, like abortion, gun control, whether there is a total universal ethics, limited freedom of speech, etc. are much harder to debate. I'm not dealing with those now. So like I said, we're in total agreement, save for the fact that you call it "a deep trust and respect for my master's wishes, which I would follow to the ends of the world, but if it REALLY (and I mean REALLY) got out of hand, I'd leave" and I call it "consent".

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to tsatske)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 6:23:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisHeavan
I'll be back in a pair of days to respond, but again, if you want to reply to me I respectfully request you do two things.
1) Answer the three italicized questions.
2) Check off which of the six principles you agree with.

*slave as defined by "feeling as if one's own consent doesn't matter"

Since you have ignored 60% of what I have said at your convience, I don't feel any need to do such a thing.

Continueing to ignore arguments and rehash the same defeated opinions isn't anymore impressive when you grandstand as some great moral hero.

It made me chuckle a bit though and as much as I hate to say it, it is really a representation of lack of life experience.

I'm home now. I miss My Pet, but that's another post. I'm ready for your list of clear and concise questions or theories. They will each be answered. Please do not edit the list after posting.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 6:30:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I must be a barbarian because a lot of this sounds like societal human rights bullshit. If someone chooses to be a slave, they are fucking meat. That is the life they have chosen. barring breaking any laws, do what the fuck you want to with them. There are many who wear the slave label and very few who are. I can see from many of the comments that most commenting (most means not all) have never come into contact with a slave, only those that play at it. There are no safe words, and I am the one that determines what is safe and sane. As far as consent, that was given when the property begs my collar. My way and there is no highway.

The website in questions offers some very good ways to assist in bringing about internal enslavement in those that already have the predisposition to be a slave. The process is a thing, neither good nor bad, the outcome depends upon the person, just like about everything in life.

BTW, angel knows more about slavery than most here know of the english language. I may not like her very much, but she knows her shit as far as being enslaved.

If you think that issues like consent are "societal human rights bullshit" then you are a barbarian. While one could play by the animal rules, I hold humans to a higher standard. You clearly do not. I haven't spent the time to think about how I feel about that in its entirety. Which laws of man are you "barring [the] breaking of laws"? The laws that make slavery, when the slavery is chattel (or meat, as you put it) illegal? Or the laws against sodomy? I've said, repeatedly, that I feel the "true slaves" (as you would call them) desired to be made from IE are rare but possible. Even these people have their human rights protected (assuming they live in a civilized nation) and hence are "playing at" being slaves... They're just REALLY good at it.

"My way and there is no highway"

If you choose to respond, answer this direct question: If your slave truly wanted to leave, would you let her?

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 6:41:15 PM

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Young man,you are slowly gaining my respect in the midst of the other posturing and nit picking that is going on in this thread. I like your ability to focus without letting your ego take away your ability to reason.

I do feel that in IE the performance of the owner is as important-if not more so, than that of the owned. And if the owner has not the ability to adjust in the face of changes-or holds to a strictly fantasy construct that does not mesh with reality-the end result will often be tragedy and abuse.

Which is where the merits of compassion and humility enter in.

One can be a man, or a caricature of one.

It's important to have the ability to know which you are at any given moment.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 7/23/2008 6:42:07 PM >

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 7:20:33 PM

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Over all I think that site DRASTICALLY under estimates the complexity of the human mind.

Breaking and rebuilding a slave: Why on Earth would a person get involved with another person if they didn't like them the way they were?

In the end I will say this: If the only reason your slave is staying with you and obeying your orders is because he/she has been mentally conditioned to do so, then I feel very sorry for you. My girl stays with me because she loves me, and obeys my orders because she respects me and wants to please me. How could I ever believe that love and respect were real if I had mentally conditioned her to be unable to leave me or disobey me. The simple fact that she can leave or disobey any time she wants, and doesn't is part of what makes the relationship special. In the site they talk about counseling, to me anyone that wants to own another to the point where they don't have the right to leave when they choose is the person that needs some counseling, because they obviously have some abandonment issues.

_____________________________

Sincerely
WhiteFox77
Learn more about us at http://SexySubmissive.RedFoxDen.net

(in reply to meticulousgirl)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 7:25:12 PM

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 7:39:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteFox77

Over all I think that site DRASTICALLY under estimates the complexity of the human mind.

Breaking and rebuilding a slave: Why on Earth would a person get involved with another person if they didn't like them the way they were?

In the end I will say this: If the only reason your slave is staying with you and obeying your orders is because he/she has been mentally conditioned to do so, then I feel very sorry for you. My girl stays with me because she loves me, and obeys my orders because she respects me and wants to please me. How could I ever believe that love and respect were real if I had mentally conditioned her to be unable to leave me or disobey me. The simple fact that she can leave or disobey any time she wants, and doesn't is part of what makes the relationship special. In the site they talk about counseling, to me anyone that wants to own another to the point where they don't have the right to leave when they choose is the person that needs some counseling, because they obviously have some abandonment issues.

Q. Why would you get involved with a person you really didn't like, that you wanted to change?

A. For the same reason that people go to school-to increase thier worth and potential. Owners are like hobbyists, always looking to make thier prized possessions better ones.

Call it pride, convenience,or simply because they have the option open. Unlike those who refuse to change at all-which is like owning something locked in a glass case,and you with no key to that case. Frustrating.

Q. Why would you want to condition someone to not want to leave, or even be able to think of it?

A. Because that is what they wanted, why they found you, tested your abilities-looked over how you lived...and decided that you fullfilled a deep need that they had, and always wanted to have met. When you meet that need,it comes as a natural consequence of that.

It's not abusive, nor is it rocket science.

The abusse lies more in the insecure feelings arising in YOUR insecurites-than theirs.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 8:21:25 PM

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The one thing most of you that are supporting this are missing is this: According to the definitions of the site, if a owner were to become abusive, or was to stop fulfilling the slaves needs, the slave would STILL be unable to leave on their own. This is not my definition or interpretation, it is what the site says. It says (speaking of the slaves bond to her master) "she can no longer break it herself", it does not say "she can no longer break it herself, so long as she isn't abused and her needs are fulfilled." That is where I have a problem.

In my not so humble opinion, any time a person can't leave an abusive relationship there is a serious problem. If a master/owner purposefully creates a situation where their slaves dependence on them is so high that the slave is unable to leave or to consider leaving as an option, even if the master becomes abusive or stops fulfilling the slaves needs, then I believe the owner is acting in an immoral way, as I see that kind of dependence as being destructive to the slave. As to a whether the slave wants it or not, a person who has self-destructive desires needs treatment, not encouragement.

_____________________________

Sincerely
WhiteFox77
Learn more about us at http://SexySubmissive.RedFoxDen.net

(in reply to Leatherist)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 8:23:55 PM

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You keep setting up this straw man of "abuse".

Thus far, you show no concrete examples, except for an overactive paranoid imagination.

Danger, will robinson, danger, will robinson!!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 8:40:27 PM

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Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

You keep setting up this straw man of "abuse".

Thus far, you show no concrete examples, except for an overactive paranoid imagination.

Danger, will robinson, danger, will robinson!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you trying to say that abuse within an IE relationship is impossible?

_____________________________

Sincerely
WhiteFox77
Learn more about us at http://SexySubmissive.RedFoxDen.net

(in reply to Leatherist)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 8:41:20 PM

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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quote:

The one thing most of you that are supporting this are missing is this: According to the definitions of the site, if a owner were to become abusive, or was to stop fulfilling the slaves needs, the slave would STILL be unable to leave on their own. This is not my definition or interpretation, it is what the site says. It says (speaking of the slaves bond to her master) "she can no longer break it herself", it does not say "she can no longer break it herself, so long as she isn't abused and her needs are fulfilled." That is where I have a problem. In my not so humble opinion, any time a person can't leave an abusive relationship there is a serious problem. If a master/owner purposefully creates a situation where their slaves dependence on them is so high that the slave is unable to leave or to consider leaving as an option, even if the master becomes abusive or stops fulfilling the slaves needs, then I believe the owner is acting in an immoral way, as I see that kind of dependence as being destructive to the slave. As to a whether the slave wants it or not, a person who has self-destructive desires needs treatment, not encouragement.

I'm hardly breaking any news to anyone here that regularly reads my very verbose posts, I'm pretty out of the closet, so, I'll tell you a few things about myself.
I am a mentally ill person. I have a fine theripist. He is aware of my relationship. He is also aware that my symptoms are under VERY good control, thanks to the parameters of my relationship. So, I have treatment, and the treatment approves.
There are a LOT of people in this great nation who very firmly believe that if you hit your wife, tie her up, ect, ect - regardless of rather she wants it or not - that is just wrong, and immoral.
On to the most important objection you make:

quote:

The one thing most of you that are supporting this are missing is this: According to the definitions of the site, if a owner were to become abusive, or was to stop fulfilling the slaves needs, the slave would STILL be unable to leave on their own. This is not my definition or interpretation, it is what the site says. It says (speaking of the slaves bond to her master) "she can no longer break it herself", it does not say "she can no longer break it herself, so long as she isn't abused and her needs are fulfilled."

Here is what I said that you seem not to have understood: The description above is the description of perfection, what many IE slaves hang on the wall of their mind and aim for. It is not what is managed. Some people may get close, but that takes a LONG time and a lot of work. They are consenting - not just on day one, but for several years as they do, over and over, what they think they must do to create that kind of bond.
these relationships do still come apart - just like good conservative christian marrages sometimes come apart, for all their assurance that they will never do so. I am not making things up, by the way - read the website. It talks about an attempt to 'create' that situation which you are quoting.
creating that situation does not take away consent. It simply means I have consented to something that you would not. I really am entitled to do that. Would I stay if He no longer met my needs? Yes. Would I stay if He no longer actively Mastered me? This is the wording used recently when that very question was discussed on the mailing list for TPE/IE slaves that I belong to. The general concensus answer was (although I think for me, the answer is simply, yes, I would), most of the slaves felt that, the longer they went without the interaction of being 'Actively Mastered', the more the I.E. would slip, until, finally, they wanted to leave, and, then, finally, they could, and, until, at last, they couldn't NOT leave. Just like the rest of the world - only maybe it takes a little longer.
Someone said about abused spouses, the vast majority of them do make the decision to stay - as was said, not blaming the victim, just a fact. A very small minority are actually held in true inescapable imprisonment or rational fear of death or death to loved ones. A few, but not many. Most have many impediments to leave - but they CAN leave. And many eventually do. What is the difference? For so long they don't - then finally they do. Why?
Becuase their resistance to leave was broken down by the reality of their life, though slowly. The same thing is going to happen to even a deeply I.E. slave, if their needs are completely unmet and their 'big red internal NO button' is tripped too hard, too many times. That is just the reality of the human mind and human condition.
I do have one friend online who's former Master gave her to another Master. If that Master had not been patient in her grieving the loss of a relationship, if he had not been a good match and a good Master, if He had not been willing to work with her in transfering her I.E. to Himself - let's face it, eventually, she would have overcome her feelings of devotion and her ethics about her slavery, and what she believed her slavery to mean - eventually, she would have left, though it would have taken a while.
My contract holds Master to the same standard. If he choses to release me, for any reason other than dishonorable behavoir on my part - he must release me TO someone. Is he likely to do so? No, He is not (although my friend sets a good example that it IS a possibility). But, I was unwilling to belong to someone who was unwilling to accept that responsbility.
I do not go around advocating that people choose an I.E. lifestyle. This either speaks to you so deeply that you can't choose anything else - or it does not. But most of the couples I know in this choice - actually, all the ones I know, though i have no doubt there are exceptions - are stable, very happy couples.
I have lived the other type of M/s relationship, and it does not fill my needs. I need more daily slavery in my life. and, on top of it, I have to say this - compared to former M/s relationships - i am betting I get laid more and beaten more than the vast majority of slaves on this site. My needs are the formost concern of my Masters, at all times, and I always know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I am his most valued possesion, and that is not just lip service. I feel it. As my profile says - I live the fairy tale, everyday; though Master does tell me that, by most peoples standards, it is a very skewered fairy tale. I'm okay with that.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to WhiteFox77)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 8:42:06 PM

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Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

This is like watching a dog chasing it's tail. A lot of sound and fury, going no place fast.

You cannot prove it will ALWAYS happen, and I cannot prove it never will.

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(in reply to WhiteFox77)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/23/2008 8:46:20 PM

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Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist
This is like watching a dog chasing it's tail.

It's usually fun for me up until page 4-5.

Or until my Netflix movies come in the mail.

Whichever one happens first.

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(in reply to Leatherist)

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