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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:33:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I mean did i really really see someone ignorantly spout off that thsi type of relationship involved isolation, intimidation an TORTURE?

No, you did not see that.... you did see people pointing out the problem of distinguishing real abuse that is masquerading as this type of relationship.

But thanks for the straw.

Yes, it was in post #58.

That's not what I said at all. You need to reread and understand the context.

I was saying that the extreme end result depicted on the website and used in the context here of someone mentally incapable of leaving a relationship they were in with an abusive and harmful Owner would probably require isolation, torture, and intimidation.

The processes listed on the IE webpage don't involve those kind of things so therefore the examples being used by HeavensKeeper to declare such relationships as unethical are naive, inaccurate, and lacking of any understanding behind what exactly an IE relationship consists of.

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(in reply to sujuguete)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:33:51 PM

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Laughs at the drama coursing through this thread....It's not enslavement people.

It's the key snapping to position in the lock-and turning.

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:34:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
That means the inability for a slave to leave the relationship stems from the slave herself and doesn't stem from a Master actively forcing her to stay.

Bingo bingo bingo

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:41:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I mean did i really really see someone ignorantly spout off that thsi type of relationship involved isolation, intimidation an TORTURE?

No, you did not see that.... you did see people pointing out the problem of distinguishing real abuse that is masquerading as this type of relationship.

But thanks for the straw.

Yes, it was in post #58.

And we also saw people pointing out that BDSM relationships such as the ones aspired to by the majority of users of this site are also seen as abusive by society at large.

And your point is. . .?

That you've misstated what someone else has said, which makes your manufactured outrage irrelevant..

(in reply to sujuguete)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:41:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
That means the inability for a slave to leave the relationship stems from the slave herself and doesn't stem from a Master actively forcing her to stay.

Bingo bingo bingo

The paradox is that it is more about what is freed-than anything else.

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:47:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

And for the record since people seems so caught up on the concept of she can't leave. A woman who is enslaved and mastered by the Man is HELD in such a relationship because HIS mastery of her and hold on her fulfills quite awesomely her needs. So when there are days that she in her very conscious and stable and fully comprehending mind says fuck this i am out of here. She is and does WALK toward the door as the Man simply watches her and he says she is free to go. BUT what no one has taken the time to recognize in their self-righteous appaulled concept of this life of woman, is with each step she takes her needs sing out to her and she knows she has a choice -- to break free of the mastery and live in misery trying to be something she is not -- free...... OR she recognizes that while she may be having a fuck off to him day, she doesn't WANT to live without his hold, his mastery, his enslavement because that is what compels her to her knees before him. So this concept of can't leave is NOT the BIG BAD MAN not letting her leave, its a woman knowing when her needs are met even if her mind may be having a fuck off day. Think of it as a safeguard for a woman, she may do something stupid on a whim and say i am outta here, but instead his hold on her stops her from harming herself by actuallly leaving the one thing she needs in her life.

IE slaves are NOT ultra submissives, they are NOT women who CANNOT regroup if the relationship ends. They are NOT women who cannot exist without a Man's mastery though to be honest it sucks to have too and she doesn't want too. And show me ONE woman in any D/s or M/s relationship that doesn't have to regroup and get her bearings when she is suddenly set free from the dynamic -- so why use that against women in IE relationships. These women are simply very lucky women who are able to live out their lives in a concept that fulfills a biting, aching and painful need because a Man has choosen and determined her existance in his life and he is capable of holding her within same. Believe me, without that from a Man, it sucks and you never ever stop seeking it because your needs ache for it.

Thank you for posting this, angel.

I imagine there are women out there with so little self-worth that they will do just about anything to hang on to "their man," but that has nothing to do with IE or slavery at all. These are the women who have a harder time regrouping when a relationship fails, and who will probably cling to the first man they can find to have their fragile self-esteem boosted, even if the man wants nothing more than a sex toy to use at his whim.

As you so eloquently put it, women who need the mastery of a confident, powerful man (not just any man) will regroup after a failed relationship and will wait for the right man to come along, if he ever does. They will not fall for the first man who claims to be a master, because his actions over time will prove whether he is or is not capable of mastering a slave.

Those who abuse others are weak in spirit, and one who is weak will not be successful in accomplishing IE in a slave. Trying to use bullying and intimidation only breeds fear and contempt in a slave, not a desire to serve. It takes self-confidence and strength of character to be successful in enslaving another, along with self-sacrifice on the part of the master.

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(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:49:38 PM

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From: DC metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
That you've misstated what someone else has said, which makes your manufactured outrage irrelevant..

I believe I used direct quotes, so I'm not sure how I "misstated" anything. Please enlighten me.

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 7:52:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
That you've misstated what someone else has said, which makes your manufactured outrage irrelevant..

I believe I used direct quotes, so I'm not sure how I "misstated" anything. Please enlighten me.

I just did in post 81. If your going to ignore it and continue on, then the problem is you wanting to read what you want to read.

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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to sujuguete)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:00:00 PM

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okay before this gets out of hand, i know who said what when and where and in what context. Take it or leave it i don't care. I stand by my comment made and the subsequent sentences thereafter.

BTW to all who have commented with thank you - your welcome and thank you for your words also. :-)

angel

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:02:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

okay before this gets out of hand, i know who said what when and where and in what context.

Nope, you don't

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Advice for New Dominants
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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:09:03 PM

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Joined: 7/3/2008
From: DC metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I just did in post 81. If your going to ignore it and continue on, then the problem is you wanting to read what you want to read.

Patience, dear rabbit. It takes me a while to compose these posts!

From post #58:

quote:

I think that getting the extreme end result as suggested by the website would require a lot more than what they depicted and probably involve intimidation, extreme isolation, and probably psychological torture.

Yes, in the above post you actually did say that this type of relationship (albeit in the extreme) probably involves isolation, intimidation and torture.

After Alumbrado denied that anyone had said that, and I countered with your post number, you clarified what you meant in your earlier post:

From post #81:

quote:

I was saying that the extreme end result depicted on the website and used in the context here of someone mentally incapable of leaving a relationship they were in with an abusive and harmful Owner would probably require isolation, torture, and intimidation.

I don't believe I misstated what you said, only took it at face value instead of deciphering the meaning you intended.

As I understand you now, you are saying that isolation, torture and intimidation would be tools used by an "abusive and harmful" owner, not necessarily by a benevolent and caring master. I can certainly agree with that.

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:13:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

"You think selling you for sex is abusive when you consider it a limit, and now you're pissy because you have herpes and I won't touch you?"
"Yes... I'd like to leave, Sir."
"You're free."
"... But I have no idea how... I have no money, no friends, no contacts, no where to go..."
"Get out."

Sounds like healthy power exchange to me.

That's a pretty one sided theoretical example and the harsh judgment that stems from such an example is nothing sort of myopic. While something like this could happen, it's also equally plausible that two responsible, ethical adults can take the creation of such an environment to such an extreme level and have it be healthy.

I agree with the Mad Rabbit!

to simplify what I see Heavanskeeper as saying.....

"None of us should ever cross the road... because we "could" get hit by the car" Fact is.. there are ways to cross the road .. some alot risker than others..... Responsible people can make responsible choices... and sometimes the most responsible and reward for them is to be authentic to their inner selves.

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:16:28 PM

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quote:

I don't believe I misstated what you said, only took it at face value instead of deciphering the meaning you intended

'Face value' involves editing the actual words and assigning contrary meanings ?... Riiiiiight...no misstatement there...

(in reply to sujuguete)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:22:47 PM

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Okay i am editing this because in the end -- its honestly not worth my time.

But you guy can continue to fight it out.

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/22/2008 8:26:43 PM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:28:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper
I don't believe people should consent to putting themselves in a position to where they will not have the faculties to consent. Assuming this works, it would be very dangerous if the slave's owner were not a top notch guy.
Yes, this is the quandary I face. And it's even worse than you described. Even if we assume that I am currently a "top notch guy" and assume further that I will never lose my mind somehow, I still have to consider what the effects of my training are on the woman I love AFTER I die or we separate. Will the next guy be a "top notch guy" also?

simple solution to the Quandary.... Do not teach your girl to depend on you to a point that she needs you to catch fish.... Teach her to know she can survive without... but wants to live with you!... she and you both make the choice to want each... as compared to Needing each other. It is the difference between Inter-dependence as compared to Co-dependence. In the Inter-dependent relationship... everyone knows how to sail the ship.. but their is only one captain. In the co-dependent relationship.. only one knows how to sail the ship and hopefully they are the captain.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:31:02 PM

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Who can argue with such a mature, factual, and well thought out rational discourse as that?

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:47:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete

Yes, in the above post you actually did say that this type of relationship (albeit in the extreme) probably involves isolation, intimidation and torture.

Nope. I had stated in earlier posts that an IE relationship consisted of an entirely different type of process and therefore I wasn't talking about an IE relationship here.

The constant context that has been held here is that someone in an abusive relationship couldn't escape because of the IE training.

I think it's complete hogwash to think that such an extreme result like that could be achieved via the Process of Enslavement and such an extreme result would require more intense and powerful psychological tactics beyond restricting bathroom privacy.

Thus, such a literal definition as presented by the website (and used to declare IE unethical in this discussion) of a "mindless zombie" who can't escape their enslavement, no matter how bad and miserable they were is not possible and bullshit.

But just because I think the extreme depiction is bullshit doesn't equate to me decreeing that IE relationships that use the theories presented here involve psychological torture, intimidation, and isolation.

That's disingenuous at best.

Now please stop putting words in my mouth and interpreting my quotes for me.

Edited to Add : You know...I am noticing I have to repeat myself a lot in this thread.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 7/22/2008 8:53:05 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 8:55:53 PM

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You mean...???

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 9:02:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

I submit that a person always has the right to consent or not consent as aspects change. If you disagree with that premise, we have found the problem.

I agree a person always has the right to consent or not consent... However... having the right and having the ability do so are two completely different things.

Secondly... anyone that believes the submissive person who gives themselves into slavery will maintain the Ability to exercise the right of consent is showing a complete lack of understand of the slave mindset. This website that spawn this thread has been around. But the thing people need to realize is that a person doesn't need to go through all those fancy flower bullshit that the web site is promoting. Many slaves already have that internal mindset of slavery.. they only but need for the door to be opened so they can feel free to be who they are in the relationship. Sometimes things happen without realization of the people involved.... It flows very easily and naturally because the individuals are acting upon their own intrinsic motivations that are compatiable with their given partner or partners.

In my experience.. very few individuals have that instrinsic mindset for slavery. This is not about them being individuals seeking co-dependency.. thou such individuals can and do indeed enter into co-dependency situations. Wise Master understand what is co-dependency and the do not encourage or foster a co-denpendency relationship. A wise master seeks to maintain and teach if necessary a slave's ability to fish and not depend on the Master for the fish. Co-dependency does often result in a person's inability to exercise consent and that is the big risk for M/s relationships. However, an Inter-dependent M/s relationship can and does maintain the slaves Right and ability to consent.

Lastly, a person is fooling themselves if they think that a slave who is deeply committed to a relationship will ever think there is attractive alternatives outside of the relationship... if their was.. mostly like they wouldn't be in the relationship in the first place. In a Healthy M/s relationship... there is no attractive alternatives.. there are only lesser alternatives or no alternatives that all. To choose any alternative beyond submissive to their master is as much if not more a denial of who they are to themselves than it is disobedience to the Master.

There is a pyschological position that the more a person becomes manifests outwardly their inner selves the greater happiness and over all well being they will enjoy. The opposite, is that the more a person denys the manifestation of their inner desires the more they will reduce their happiness and well-being. For a person that commits themselves to internal slavement they have reach a point of bliss. Their inner self has been completely manifest outward..... to deny it at this point can be extremely damaging to themselves. It is also important that Masters understand this ideal.. for when they take such a person into their lives... they in a very real way... have the power to permenantly harm the very core of the person.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

RE: Internal Enslavement - 7/22/2008 9:12:22 PM

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Edit to add: This post was written by HeavansKeeper. Slavegirl and I share the computer and she leaves her account signed in. And then she complains about me leaving the toilet seat up! Women!

<QR>

I don't have the time today, or likely tomorrow, to answer posts directly, but I will say this.

I admit I was too harsh when I said "I'm against it", in such a blanket statement. What I am against is the possible outcome, which is unlikely, but would violate my principles.

The ONLY thing I'm against is leaving someone in a state where they cannot give consent as situations (that involve them) change.

These are my principles. If you do not agree with one, say so cleary.

1) Consent must be given from all involved parties to ensure an act is right.
2) Consent may never be forced.
3) Consent may never be coerced.
4) Consent is only valid if it is imformed.
5) When the situation originally consented to changes, original consent is no longer applicable.
6) Consent may be withdrawn at any time.

I will say it again, in no uncertain terms. I am prying on the one and rare situation which could arise from IE's goal: A slave could be trained to feel they have no right to consent or not.

I am completely ignoring when IE's teachings go right. I am completely ignoring when IE's teachings do not reach the above goal. (I am completely ignoring 99.9% of IE styled relationships, only a very rare hypothetical situation)

The only question of interest: Can someone consent to everything? I submit no. A person can only consent to what they can understand and be aware of, what they are informed of. Can they consent to things that are unknown? Not ethically.

Barelynangel, I said nothing about torture, and your post makes me think you haven't read my words carefully enough. I'm only applying the six principles above. Do you disagree with any of them?

>>IF<< the principles are true (they could potentially be false) then being a real IE slave* is wrong.

Post #58:
Are you for or against people having the right to leave whenever they choose?
Do you think a slave can be trained never to leave?
Are you for or against the concept of “freedom to rescind initial consent?”

If you answer “For”, “Yes”, and “For” then you are against the biggest goals of IE, to make the mind a slave.

I refuse to hide behind "These are the subjective rules I live my life by." I feel the principles I choose to believe, IN THE PERFECT WORLD, would extend to everyone, and make the world a better place. People can violate these principles, no one can stop them. We don't live in the perfect world.

I'll be back in a pair of days to respond, but again, if you want to reply to me I respectfully request you do two things.
1) Answer the three italicized questions.
2) Check off which of the six principles you agree with.

*slave as defined by "feeling as if one's own consent doesn't matter"

< Message edited by HisHeavan -- 7/22/2008 9:16:54 PM >

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