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in it for what they can get out of it and out of it as ... - 8/6/2008 3:53:24 AM

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Thanks lally for the quote above which i changed the words of slightly BUT....
why is the collar offerred so freely and then taken so lightly?
what do some think it takes to FULLY submit?
it's easily placed around a neck, and then taken for granted.....
please don't flame...ok reply by saying a collar is easily placed around the neck of someone who easily accepts it ok ok....
but WHAT does a collar mean these days...a bit of velcro???
or
locked and then you have to phone the owner to ask for the keys?
or you have to ask on your public profile because he refuses all contact?
or refuses to accept you just want to take the damn thing off because it was meaningless in the first place once they got the sex????
or they thought they had collared you for life and therefore you would take any sadistic crap?

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/6/2008 3:58:28 AM >

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:01:01 AM

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A collar is just as easily accepted as it is given. The submissive bears as much responsibility in receiving it as the dominant does in giving it. It's just easier to blame the dominant for things not working out. Some people spend months and months together before even bringing up a collar; others spend years. If a dominant were to offer me a collar in days or weeks I would be likely to think he was a fly-by-night dom and not take it seriously.

The question is, why receive a collar so quickly and freely?

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:09:14 AM

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i think it makes more sense if you step back and view how the human race is being trained: short attention spans..... expected to switch jobs and careers several times over a life span.... bombarded with new information around the clock... no corporate loyalty toward employees.... no security of any kind. people now - especially the younger ones - find it very easy to just move on to the next best thing not even considering > long term.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:18:45 AM

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I have to echo the same sentiments as NuevaVida.

Prin, I think you are probably a fantastic woman. I believe you are probably quite intelligent. However you seem, based upon your posting history, to make terrible horrible relationship decisions. If I were you, or if you one of my friends, I would think an absence of such for a period of time might be beneficial. A time of reflection as to why you constantly feel the need to jump into these doomed partnerings.

I only suggest this because it really is becoming a pattern, and one you've continued to deny, all while moving on to the next cycle of the same thing.

Until you admit it is what it is, your going to keep accepting these velcro collars and lamenting their lack of value. It is obvious that at some level you do not see the value in yourself, therefor choose men of little value that place zero value on you and the collar they offer.........beyond getting laid.

Now, if you want to continue being an easy fuck for a series of shitheads, by all means continue as you are. BUT, if somewhere in your heart you really do want something more substancial, you are going to have to place that value upon yourself. You can argue the point all you want, if this is what you choose to do, but from where I am sitting with your past words, both recent and less so.........it is all quite obvious to those of us on the outside of this melodrama (thank you Stella for that lightbulb).

I only wish you the very best Prin, start acting as though you deserve it. Start demanding it for yourself.

LeeAnn

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:23:43 AM

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I tend to be too blunt, so ditto what LaT said.

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:26:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mefisto69

i think it makes more sense if you step back and view how the human race is being trained: short attention spans.....

Not so much Zen and the Art of Collaring but

ADD and the Art of Collaring (no offense to those with ADD or ADHD inteneded...but i also feel the western world is suffering from attention deficit.......

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:28:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I only wish you the very best Prin, start acting as though you deserve it. Start demanding it for yourself.

LeeAnn

oh you assumed it was personal?

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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
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To my stalker:
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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:28:58 AM

divi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I have to echo the same sentiments as NuevaVida.

Prin, I think you are probably a fantastic woman. I believe you are probably quite intelligent. However you seem, based upon your posting history, to make terrible horrible relationship decisions. If I were you, or if you one of my friends, I would think an absence of such for a period of time might be beneficial. A time of reflection as to why you constantly feel the need to jump into these doomed partnerings.

I only suggest this because it really is becoming a pattern, and one you've continued to deny, all while moving on to the next cycle of the same thing.

Until you admit it is what it is, your going to keep accepting these velcro collars and lamenting their lack of value. It is obvious that at some level you do not see the value in yourself, therefor choose men of little value that place zero value on you and the collar they offer.........beyond getting laid.

Now, if you want to continue being an easy fuck for a series of shitheads, by all means continue as you are. BUT, if somewhere in your heart you really do want something more substancial, you are going to have to place that value upon yourself. You can argue the point all you want, if this is what you choose to do, but from where I am sitting with your past words, both recent and less so.........it is all quite obvious to those of us on the outside of this melodrama (thank you Stella for that lightbulb).

I only wish you the very best Prin, start acting as though you deserve it. Start demanding it for yourself.

LeeAnn

ditto

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:41:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I only wish you the very best Prin, start acting as though you deserve it. Start demanding it for yourself.

LeeAnn

oh you assumed it was personal?

I just snorted coffee out of my nose.

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:57:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I only wish you the very best Prin, start acting as though you deserve it. Start demanding it for yourself.

LeeAnn

oh you assumed it was personal?

I just snorted coffee out of my nose.

i don't snort coffee......

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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
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To my stalker:
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(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 5:40:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

<snip>but WHAT does a collar mean these days...a bit of velcro???
or
locked and then you have to phone the owner to ask for the keys?
or you have to ask on your public profile because he refuses all contact?
or refuses to accept you just want to take the damn thing off because it was meaningless in the first place once they got the sex????
or they thought they had collared you for life and therefore you would take any sadistic crap?

Easy answer? Too many people too anxious to "join the club". "Subsusie was collared yesterday, why aren't I?" "LordLonely collared his second last week, what's wrong with me?" And so on go the collars, with the following day's reaction being "What the frak did I do and why did I do it???!!!"

More complicated answer? Because too many folks believe the crap they read on line. Because too many folks think that talking timidly to "a dom" (as if that's a 'one-size-fits-all' personality) is required. Because too many folks believe that domlydoms thump their chests and strut their egos and demand all that "stuff" they've been led to believe they're entitled to from Castlerealm and other such malarky.

And too, there are a lot of folks who say they're looking but aren't really available to look - married, commited, out of work, afraid of their own shadows, pretenders, posers. Like dogs chasing cars, they have no idea what to do when they actually catch someone. And it happens on the other side of the whip too, the "sub" who hasn't a clue how difficult submission is when the chains come off and it's Monday morning and you actually have submitted to the authority of someone else.

It takes hard work, due diligence as equals prior to offering or accepting a collar.

It would help, in my opinion, if "dominant" and "submissive" returned to their adjectival meaning, and people then determined for themselves whether the other person was, in their perception, dominant or submissive to them.

But then, we wouldn't have these threads, would we?

D.
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it.”
- George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 6:00:27 AM

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giving and taking back collars in a blink is all part of the syndrome i think. of wanting something sooo much and then finding it toooo much.

i have learnt my lesson, not to be so gullable, not to be so quick to trust -

it is an equal responsibility to give and to accept a collar - the word responsibility being the key word here. i myself had no problem wearing his collar because i had no doubts, therefore i took the responsibility willingly, happily and in the full knowledge of my committment to it and him. sadly the gesture from his stand point clearly had less poignancy and his understanding of a collar, in the end, was clearly not my own.

im with kyst, from another thread, that a collar is now a limit for me, unless in time, after a lot of time, i will wear one if it means that much to him, but for no other reason.

but it goes way deeper than that - its the whole emotional and psychological thing of submission and to be made to feel so wanted and precious that they want to clap you in irons and make them theirs - its that part we have to protect ourselves from until enough time has lapsed that we really can see it in their eyes and feel it tangibly.

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 6:24:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

giving and taking back collars in a blink is all part of the syndrome i think. of wanting something sooo much and then finding it toooo much.

<snip>

im with kyst, from another thread, that a collar is now a limit for me, unless in time, after a lot of time, i will wear one if it means that much to him, but for no other reason.

but it goes way deeper than that - its the whole emotional and psychological thing of submission and to be made to feel so wanted and precious that they want to clap you in irons and make them theirs - its that part we have to protect ourselves from until enough time has lapsed that we really can see it in their eyes and feel it tangibly.

Couple of points here: Somewhere along the line, the focus turned from finding a compatible partner to finding someone to collar. I suspect when the D/s crowd collided with the Castlerealm folks at the Gor convention, that romanticized image of domly doms and flowing silks made the accoutrements more precious than the people involved. I mean, think about it: Do vanilla folks focus on the wedding band or the person? Yet the talk is of collars and their removal, not exploring the person.

You speak, rightly and accurately, about the emotional and psychological weight of submitting to another person. Believe me, from my vantage point, it's a damned heavy weight to carry from the d-types perspective as well. But neither can carry that weight if the urge for the dynamic outweighs the urge to discover just who the other person is.

Not every broken dynamic is the result of not doing due diligence. Often, one person tires of another, or is tempted by someone else, or burns out. If they're honest and mature, tthey try and work things out, work through their own feelings, perhaps explain to their collared parnter and try to come to some place of reconciliation or redefining of the relationship. Otherwise, they sit the other person down and say "Hey, listen, it's not working for me because of X, Y, and Z. I know we made commitments to each other and we tried to work on it, but I have to move on." Oh, yeah, the hurt's still there, but at least it's not "NOT ACCEPTING EMAILS" or just getting the voicemail. And there was an attempt to honestly work it out.

But the others? Dropping someone like a stone is just cold. And cowardly. And there's no defense for it because there's no defense offered. Why do people do it? Myriad reasons: Wife found out, some new pussy caught his attention, some new domly type IM'd her, Mom caught him at the computer...

But most often (not always), the underlying reason is not enough time was taken on discovery. We need to stop worrying about "the collar". If the person is right, the collar won't matter. And if the person is wrong, all the collars in the world won't fix it.

D.
"All of life’s big problems include the words 'indictment' or 'inoperable'. Everything else is small stuff."
- Alton Brown

(in reply to lally3)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 6:28:23 AM

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quote:

{Melo}drama is "why does this ALWAYS happen to ME" over and over and over and over and over again...

In my short time in the scene, a bit over a decade, I have collared exactly one woman despite having had a number of quite wonderful and dedicated women in my life. BSB thinks collars are silly and since our relationship is on hold at the moment, it doesn't appear as if I am going to be having another one made any time soon. So yes, for many of us collars are quite significant and not offered lightly.

Stop spreading your legs to get love and make your partner EARN your trust rather than selling yourself so fucking quickly and cheaply.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 8/6/2008 6:29:36 AM >

(in reply to lally3)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 6:54:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I only wish you the very best Prin, start acting as though you deserve it. Start demanding it for yourself.

LeeAnn

oh you assumed it was personal?

Prin, come on now...... I am not blind nor am I stupid.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 7:00:51 AM

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hey again david,

its an odd fact and im just as guilty as some others - that you kind of lose all emotional intelligence in the face of something you crave (now i dont crave it - not any more, moved on from there now, cooled and steady i am) but there was a time when i did and just that little bit of intoxicating control swept me off my feet.

not so easy now - smile)), and i agree - the fun of the chase, the goal of a collar, that first meet leading to a promise of play some time soon - isnt the stuff of lasting real time.

as my ex twice removed said, there are no guarantees in a relationship - a bit of a cop out, and it was a truism he enjoyed proving to me on more than one occasion, but.. people change, things alter, things end, not always anyones fault.

but it would be nice to think, wouldnt it, that if someone says they are D/s its because they have absorbed the premis - they might not be BIGBADDOM, they might in their own way be honestly looking - so fine - look, dont dabble, dont dabble and dom and for gods sake dont dabble at doming and then ditch!

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 7:21:45 AM

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why is the collar offerred so freely and then taken so lightly? for the same reason some people say the words " I love you" and mean something strong, committed, internal and valuable....and others can say the same words lightly and conveniently and without intent or integrity, and without regard to the feelings they conjure up in the receipient of the declaration.

For some people declarations of love....or a collar...or a promise are like pie-crusts ( easily made n easily broken) and used as a means to an agenda rather than a commitment.

it's easily placed around a neck, and then taken for granted.....   we teach people how to treat us. I am completely responsible for communicating what I value and expect in a relationship ( ds or otherwise ) and in a collar and/or ring....or even a promise. I am NOT responsible for that other persons actions or reactions to my level of commitment about the same....nor can I change theirs that is their work not mine.. But I am responsible for making sure what I hear, feel, see and trust is genuine and real....real meaning exists because it does, not because I want it to. And is compatible with my expectations, needs and level of commitment ( or lack there of).
Just because my interpretation of giving and receiving a collar might mean love and commitment and monogomy> does NOT mean the other person feels the same.   there are some Ds or bdsm relationships that are more casual and have different dynamics and commitments than my definition. That does not make theirs wrong and mine right or vicaversa. just different.
There are emotionally immature, mentally dysfunctioning human-being out there everywhere who wouldn't know a "commitment" if it hit them upside the head...giving out ( and accepting) "collars" like cracker crumbs to pigeons.                                                                                              Its my responsibility to> give myself time and patience, keep a clear and level head, mind and heart & determine that before I accept that collar.

but WHAT does a collar mean these days...a bit of velcro???

Its a symbol.. a representation of what is emotionally. I don't care if it locks or not or is made of cement> it is only as permanent and strong as is the emotions, integrity, commitment and intentions of the one who placed it there and the one who accepted it.

But, it is not a guarantee that those intents or levels of commitment MATCH.

A collar will not make something there that isn't there.
A collar will not make someone something ( to someone else) they are not. The collar is the symbol of what already exists emotionally and mentally.

just like:
The words "I love you" will not make you love me. Nor can you saying you love me> make me love you. ( and if it does? its time for some serious pause and reflection).

just like:
Me getting pregnant will not make you stay(emotionally) or be committed(genuinely). >>( substitute "a collar" for word pregnant)

a collaring  will not either. The collar ALONE does not make me submissive or slave and does not make him/her a master or mistress.

My collar does not go around my neck. It doesnt even have " a lock and key"   ..   It is there and where it is because he put it there, and it stays not because I cant take it off, but because our commitment lives and binds.

edited to add : " ( and accepting) " don't want to be guilty of sexism errrr whatever ya get my drift..

< Message edited by TysGalilah -- 8/6/2008 7:38:43 AM >

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 7:24:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

<snip>
but it would be nice to think, wouldnt it, that if someone says they are D/s its because they have absorbed the premis - they might not be BIGBADDOM, they might in their own way be honestly looking - so fine - look, dont dabble, dont dabble and dom and for gods sake dont dabble at doming and then ditch!

Hey Lally,

It would be nice if folks actually walked the walk. Y'know, many, many years ago in an early edition of "Mother Night", Vonnegutt made a wonderful observation. For those who haven't read it, it deals with an American in deep cover in Nazi Germany who winds up being a respected Nazi propagandist, while his broadcasts are actually coded messages to the Allies. And Kurt observed, "You are who you pretend to be. So be very careful who you pretend to be."

You mentioned the emotional excitement s-types experience. D-types get it too. And especially for males, after 40 years of feminism, imagine discovering "D/s" - "I am Dom, hear me roar! I get what I want when I want it!" Problem is, it's that old dog chasing the car thing again - what do you do with it when you get it. You actually have to have an idea of what the dynamic needs to be, and both people need to have signed off on that idea.

I call it "ethical commonality" because it covers a lot more. It obviates negotiation, because you're all at the same place ethically. You don't have to tell him "no chainsaws" because he's not a chainsaw kinda guy. But it also means you're both seeking the same emotional dynamic. And it needn't be love. It can be compatibity or consistency of attention or a certain sadomasochistic interaction - or simply sex. The point is, the people involved have done the work before commitment to know they're both (or all) after the same thing.

Someone earlier made the comment that offering the collar is similar to "Yeah, baby, I love you" - a shortcut to orgasm. It's a shame that in this day and age, decades after the Summer of Love and sexual exploration and Free Love and available birth control and condoms, we still feel the need to barter underhandedly for sex, to offer something we don't really intend to give for a quick blow job or horizontal mambo.

I have nothing against anonymous, spontaneous sport f**king. I have nothing against sex for the hell of it. But if someone wants to serve me, they'd damned better want to *serve me*. Because I'm going to put a lot of time and effort into the dynamic. But before that happens, we're all gonna be spending a helluva lot of time making sure we're all on the same page.

Am I "in it for whatever I get out of it?" Absolutely! I'm a selfish SOB. And I expect anyone in service to me to be in it for whatever *they* get out of it. 'Cuz if they ain't getting anything out of it, ain't gonna work, is it?

But hit 'em and hit the road? That's teenage crap.

D., realizing he's talking way too much this morning...
"I've always basically been a life support system for a mouth."
- Col. Jack Jacobs (Ret.)

(in reply to lally3)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 8:26:42 AM

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, "You are who you pretend to be. So be very careful who you pretend to be."

smile... you know what im going to say dont you...

if youre being covert then yes, be very careful, particularly if it means a firing squad at dawn if youre not. being covert in order to get your jollies or cut your teeth on someone elses parade has an entirely different outcome. but again im not necessarily saying that certain people are being overly covert, i believe in alot of cases they honestly believe its for them, until they have a go. but having a go isnt on, if youre having a go with someone who is clearly giving their best, without conditions, not one of those subs who says, yes but only if, and no cos i dont want to submit myself to that. having a go, making promises, going 7 yards down the optional 9 and then pulling out because theyve decided that actually its all a little bit too much effort after all - stinks.

You mentioned the emotional excitement s-types experience. D-types get it too. And especially for males, after 40 years of feminism, imagine discovering "D/s" - "I am Dom, hear me roar! I get what I want when I want it!" Problem is, it's that old dog chasing the car thing again - what do you do with it when you get it. You actually have to have an idea of what the dynamic needs to be, and both people need to have signed off on that idea.

absolutely - the premis of D/s is a symbiosis that is a) hard to find and b) hard to keep. half the battle therefore is knowing from the outset that what you have found is rare and worth working at. if a person hasnt yet discovered how difficult it is to find someone who clicks chemically, physically, mentally, psychologically, sexually, kinkally and if they havent yet learnt that that doesnt come along every day then, in my view, they havent yet caught on to the premis of D/s or worse, they never actually meant to.

what to do with it when youve got it is absolutely true - i really think that is often the stumbling block - its also chase over - and eek, horror of horrors - no excuses left to do a bunk - so maybe much easier not to look for that submission in your sub, much easier to have your fun and move on before it all gets committed and messy. no, im not bitter, really, im smiling as i write this - irony amuses me.

I call it "ethical commonality" because it covers a lot more. It obviates negotiation, because you're all at the same place ethically. You don't have to tell him "no chainsaws" because he's not a chainsaw kinda guy. But it also means you're both seeking the same emotional dynamic. And it needn't be love. It can be compatibity or consistency of attention or a certain sadomasochistic interaction - or simply sex. The point is, the people involved have done the work before commitment to know they're both (or all) after the same thing.

yes - i live in hope.. smile))

Someone earlier made the comment that offering the collar is similar to "Yeah, baby, I love you" - a shortcut to orgasm. It's a shame that in this day and age, decades after the Summer of Love and sexual exploration and Free Love and available birth control and condoms, we still feel the need to barter underhandedly for sex, to offer something we don't really intend to give for a quick blow job or horizontal mambo.

you see, i think everyone knows that is what this is about - infact, its part of why the whole sexual thing leaps out far too quickly sometimes. the whole topic is sexually charged and its quite difficult to keep it from being anything else sometimes. particularly if vanilla isnt an option and you havent had any for months.. lol.

I have nothing against anonymous, spontaneous sport f**king. I have nothing against sex for the hell of it. But if someone wants to serve me, they'd damned better want to *serve me*. Because I'm going to put a lot of time and effort into the dynamic. But before that happens, we're all gonna be spending a helluva lot of time making sure we're all on the same page.

and the opposite applied in context here - subs who have submitted - if someone wants to master me, theyd damned better want to *master me*. because im going to put a lot of time and effort into the dynamic. but from now on im going to spend so much fucking time getting to know them and make sure we are on the same page.

Am I "in it for whatever I get out of it?" Absolutely! I'm a selfish SOB. And I expect anyone in service to me to be in it for whatever *they* get out of it. 'Cuz if they ain't getting anything out of it, ain't gonna work, is it?

i dont think thats being selfish, i think thats how it is - as an M you dont want to be pouring yourself into someone who isnt enjoying themselves and vice versa

But hit 'em and hit the road? That's teenage crap.

isnt it, and wouldnt you think that guys after a certain age should know better, it was my hope anyway. but ive learnt alot about myself and all of this through talking this out through this thread and the 'detached' thread. its made me realise that i have taken too much on trust and not enough on hard evidence. so a real learning curve for me. thanks.

D., realizing he's talking way too much this morning...
"I've always basically been a life support system for a mouth."
- Col. Jack Jacobs (Ret.)

[/quote]

_____________________________

even doves have pride (Prince)

(in reply to DavidS8ist)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 9:12:01 AM

Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline

People don't run around chasing after wedding bands? What? What the hell is the deal with all of these reality shows? And the divorce rate? Hell, I've been proposed to in every relationship I've been in except this one!

People want love, the ultimate experience, the knight on the white charger, the woman of their dreams. People are desperate to be accepted, wanted, needed, loved. I doubt attention span has anything to do with it. I've been guilty, and attention span had nothing to do with it.

I've promised myself that, when My Lord is gone, I'm spending at least a year alone. I'm going to explore loneliness for a while, or maybe aloneness would be better, and see if I've learned to like my own company yet.

Blame the media, or fickle doms, velcro collars, blah blah blah. The truth is that all of us want to be loved and accepted. When someone comes along and tells us we are unique, that we are loved, that we are wanted, it's easy to believe that we are unique enough for it to be different for us.

But haste is not always waste: my folks met on a blind date, married a month later, and are still married six grown kids and 49 years later. You never can tell.

_____________________________

Congratulate me...I'm a missus!!

--nobody's resident anything.

(in reply to lally3)

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