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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 6:15:33 PM

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From: Phx AZ
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does this dress look good on me ? I get asked that as i do sell fetish wear and leather garments etc .If i lie and say ooh yeah it looks great to just make a quick sale when in fact a garbage bag looks about the same on you , then that person is going to leave and tell people right where she got the outfit she looks so bad in and also tell people i said yeah i said it looked great on her . So if it looks like crap i say so , though i do it in a respectful manner at times just shake my head and say umm nope lets try this instead ahhh yes thats soo much better VS OMG are you wearing a dead elephants skin ?
Its also how i try and live my daily life , redirection and conversation is better than lies and deception .
So No i dont lie and at times i am brutally honest with out being hurtful .

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 8:30:19 PM

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I am thinking about the lies I have already told this week, including some honkers to a quasi-friend. I will lie to avoid sharing my emotions with someone who I don't feel is entitled to them. I will lie to avoid hurting someone needlessly. I will lie to smooth over a bad situation. I will lie to make things easier. I think that many of us do, at least to the point of "redirection better than deception" as Az described. I am absolutely in agreement with Elan--there are times when your partner does NOT need to know what is on your mind. Are lies told to protect yourself or someone else better or different than lies told to manipulate or harm? That's more midnight philosophy than I can handle!

That said, I am pretty harsh with men who lie to me. Why? Because in my experience, men are great at really huge lies. They lie about marital status, age, jobs, what they did recently, who they slept with, whether they have children, whether they paid their bills, a whole host of things. Honestly, if you ever run into my ex, and he tells you that the sun rises in the east? Get up early to check...

A person who is in the early stages of a relationship with me who lies is in serious trouble, because if you can't at least *begin* by being honest, then how can I establish any kind of baseline for trust? If a man comes out with a monster piece of intel about himself a week into discussion, I have to wonder what ELSE is in the closet bursting to come out.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 2:07:16 AM

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Q) Is deception ever justified?

A) I believe the answer depends upon the outcomes.

A specific example; at work there is an overweight colleague. When me or others make his cup of tea, he insists on us putting two teaspoons of sugar in it. We only put one into it, but we lie and tell him there is two. The extra teaspoon of sugar doesn't make the tea any more sweeter, so he doesn't notice.

Hence he doesn't continue to get as fat he would otherwise, which is better for his health and a better outcome than had we been truthful.

Only a single case is required to validate the hypotheses is deception ever justified? I believe this example validates the hypotheses.

Though others with a differing world-view from mine may of course beg to differ.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 2:20:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
I don't deal well with lies, even "white" ones. The fastest way to earn yourself an express ticket out of my life, with extreme prejudice, is to lie to me. Omission counts. In my case, it is never acceptable to lie to me. I would rather hear unpleasant truth. I also do my best not to lie to others. I won't say I don't ever lie, but I work to tell as few as possible.

With respect; isn't such an attitude too inflexible for an uncertain world and future? Who knows what's around the next corner? You may run into a situation where telling the truth could lead to less pleasant circumstances than lying would.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 4:57:50 AM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rookey

Q) Is deception ever justified?

A) I believe the answer depends upon the outcomes.

A specific example; at work there is an overweight colleague. When me or others make his cup of tea, he insists on us putting two teaspoons of sugar in it. We only put one into it, but we lie and tell him there is two. The extra teaspoon of sugar doesn't make the tea any more sweeter, so he doesn't notice.

Hence he doesn't continue to get as fat he would otherwise, which is better for his health and a better outcome than had we been truthful.

Only a single case is required to validate the hypotheses is deception ever justified? I believe this example validates the hypotheses.

Though others with a differing world-view from mine may of course beg to differ.

Great example, I like you rookey and can respect this.
I was thinking about all the people that state they hate liars, and they never lie.
That shit is not true.
When I leave the house in a few minutes, If someone asks me how am I doing, and
I am stressed out and I say "Oh, just fine!".
That is a white lie.

It comes down to morals and values.
But those that say "Oh I never lie!", makes those that say it ....full of crapola.
I doubt few humans on the earth never told a single lie, and I doubt the few that never
did are on this website.
The REAL question is: "What lies are acceptable and what lies are not? "

If most of us always said what we really thought, we would usually not even have a job.
Get over yourself, if you think you never "lie".

I think lying to yourself is the biggest lie of all.
...walks away shaking her head wondering what adults over 18 think they never lie ?
Namaste

< Message edited by MzMia -- 8/19/2008 5:19:21 AM >

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 10:06:43 AM

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From: Phx AZ
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I must be very rare then Mia , cuz if some random person askes how r you ? and i am having a crap day i say so not a standard "fine" .Like if the cashier who askes everyone the same thing , Did you find everything ok ? No as a matter a fact i did not but i looked and you dont have this or that .If i said yes and lied i would not get help in finding that thing i wanted in the first place .Sure in my past i have lied and its even tougher than the truth , lies breed a snowball effect , you then have to keep thinking of another and another to cover your tracks from the first one .The next thing you know people are keeping track and your busted .I also try not to use absolutes , never always everyone etc .I am far from perfect i just try and be the best honest me i can be .

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 10:12:45 AM

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I may lie to a police officer or a doctors office or a non personal someone, if I lie, but I am not going to lie or leave anything out in a personal relationship. If someone can be hurt by a lie or a relationship damaged, I don't think a lie is the thing to do.

(in reply to azropedntied)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 10:40:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

I don't deal well with lies, even "white" ones. The fastest way to earn yourself an express ticket out of my life, with extreme prejudice, is to lie to me. Omission counts. In my case, it is never acceptable to lie to me. I would rather hear unpleasant truth. I also do my best not to lie to others. I won't say I don't ever lie, but I work to tell as few as possible.

This sums it up 100% for me as well

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 10:46:20 AM

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lol Ms Lockit, guess You found the one area i'm not quite so *honest about*...

Officer: do you know why I pulled you over?

me: umm nope, sure dont! (even though i KNOW i was speeding)

Officer: well you were going a little fast back there...

me: umm, don't think so officer......

Nope, not going to admit it... LOL

You got me! but in personal relationships, friends, family..... it's 100% honesty at all times or i'm so outta there! Guess it comes from being told at age 18 that i was adopted. Nothing like feeling like your life has been one big lie to promote a zero tolerance for ANY dishonesty.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 11:50:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: rookey

Q) Is deception ever justified?

A) I believe the answer depends upon the outcomes.

A specific example; at work there is an overweight colleague. When me or others make his cup of tea, he insists on us putting two teaspoons of sugar in it. We only put one into it, but we lie and tell him there is two. The extra teaspoon of sugar doesn't make the tea any more sweeter, so he doesn't notice.

Hence he doesn't continue to get as fat he would otherwise, which is better for his health and a better outcome than had we been truthful.

Only a single case is required to validate the hypotheses is deception ever justified? I believe this example validates the hypotheses.

Though others with a differing world-view from mine may of course beg to differ.

Great example, I like you rookey and can respect this.

Gee thanks MzMia

You're pretty swell yourself.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 12:28:26 PM

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HeavansKeeper,

I gotta' say, I really enjoy and learn a lot from your posts. You're full of wonderful insight.

quote:

Deception is different. When she spends the day buying materials to make cookies for me, and answers "What'd you do today?" with "I went shopping - got new panties for you, Master." That is, technically, a lie. I see it as deceit. So I am in favor of lying to preserve a nice surprise.

This is part of what I meant when I wrote in Akasha's thread that "it depends on the intent of the lie and my investment in the person". I love the example you've given here because rather then it being self focused (as in a person avoiding confrontation, etc.) this lie is aimed at benefiting the receiver. It's not often we think of lying as something done for the receiver's benefit, although sometimes we do, and certainly not, as is the case here, as an act of affection and love.

When my grandfather died, my grandmother was already suffering from advanced Alzheimer's disease. As a consequence, she kept forgetting that her husband had died. Thus, for a while, we kept telling her what had happened and she would re-live the initial pain all over again. Eventually, we started saying "he's at the store". An hour later she had forgotten what she had asked and where her husband was so she'd ask again. For the rest of her life her husband was perennially "out shopping".

quote:

If anyone expects and desires pure honesty from their submissive, they must provide a truth-friendly environment.

This is so significant that I just had to quote it. In my profession, I must often counsel senior managers in how to "receive bad or unexpected news gracefully". Managers are often astounded to learn that staff lie to them and yet these same managers frequently reprimand staff for telling the truth. It's a vicious catch twenty-two because the truth eventually comes out and the manger will say something like "why didn't you tell me about this before when I could have done something about it... it's too late now". You can't manage a job (or a submissive, for that matter) without correct information, but you'll never get correct information if people are fearful of telling it to you. Therefore, I second your notion that to get honesty one must foster a truth-friendly environment.

Elan.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 12:48:45 PM

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Of course it is....especially when answering dangerous questions like, "Do these pants make my butt look big?"

Tasha

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 12:53:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tasha_tart

Of course it is....especially when answering dangerous questions like, "Do these pants make my butt look big?"

And blurting out "Don't blame the pants!!" is never, ever a good idea...

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 1:04:23 PM

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quote:

Sindel:
At times I believe there are instances that it is ok to tell white lies. When your Mistress may be bloated and asks if she looks fat, certainly to spare her feelings you would tell her that she does not look fat, and in fact looks radiant!

Sometimes telling the truth is complex and requires empathy and finesse. For example, in the case Sindel has given, were my partner and I at home and it only effected me, I'd probably say something like "I love you no matter what you're wearing or what you look like... you always look radiant to me and you look so incredibly beautiful right now". However, were we going out and it really mattered to my partner, given that her outfit highlighted her bloated-ness, I might say something like "I think *this* outfit may go better with my suit, what do you think"? If she persisted in her choice of outfits, I'd kiss her and say "you are a tad bloated my love, can I help you pick something out that will work better for you right now"?

Let's take the same question, but significantly rewire the circumstances. Suppose my partner and I were working out together with each of us wanting to burn off fat. If my partner asked me "am I putting on flab" and she was, I'd say "yes, I think we need to adjust our eating and workout habits again".

Now don't get me wrong in thinking I'm advocating lying, I'm not. However, I do think the way we choose to deliver a message is vitally important to how the message is received. Likewise, context and intent are very important, and thus, for various reasons, people may omit or change the presentation of information for different receivers. Indeed, this is a critical skill in our society.

Here's another example. With one boss I had, if I took the time necessary to communicate all details so as to give the exact truth, he stopped listening and went on to other things. No matter how critical the information I was communicating, if the conversation lasted too long, he filtered out the entire thing. Thus, I learned how to communicate the most critical aspects as quickly as possible, even if this sometimes meant leaving out other, important details. My choice was to get some of the message across or none at all, so I opted for some rather than none.

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 8/19/2008 1:07:30 PM >

(in reply to Sindel)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 1:12:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sindel

At times I believe there are instances that it is ok to tell white lies. When your Mistress may be bloated and asks if she looks fat, certianly to spare her feelings you would tell her that she does not look fat, and in fact looks radiant!

It's a trick question; Mistresses don't bloat.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 1:18:51 PM

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Cloudboy posted some excellent thoughts on the complexity in the way people communicate information. This is from Akasha's thread, but I've added it here because I think it's very pertinent to the discussion.

quote:

Cloudboy:
Relationships are not about being "submissive" or "dominant." I think its an error to use BDSM as a prism for character assessments or expectations.

Next, I'm stunned that people don't like liars and always prefer honesty. I'm bowled over by this.

Me, if I like/love/or get off on another person --- that fundamental thing includes all that they do. I don't really expect someone else to be an honesty machine, and frankly I might even view that as a character flaw.

I like to think more about how **I** make others feel --- and how that plays a role in how I am treated. Lying is not a strict external phenomenon, aka something someone else does to innocent others. No, lying is often connected to the complex environment of people. So, rather than blame others for being liars, I put my efforts into making others feel safe.

(snip)

Hell, the uncovered "lie" is often a great opportunity for connection.

(in reply to ElanSubdued)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 1:33:20 PM

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I guess I have a character flaw... I never felt safe with a man who lied to me and I never was safe with one, as their lies seemed to really get in the way. I guess it would depend on the lie, but as a hard and fast rule in my life and a choice, I chose to not be with a liar. I don't see it as degree's of lying or clasifications. When I have to go through the... what does this mean... are there other lies... when is he real... when is he just human and flawed... it is far too much drama, truama and bs. I like to know where I stand and with someone who plays with words, intentions, manipulation, etc. I am standing on shaky ground. I am too old and cranky to play the game.

There are honest people out there that want what I want and will be thankful that I want honesty and offer honesty and if that is a flaw... I am okay with that.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 1:39:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper
Lying takes many forms. While I would never accept a brazen lie, I understand when deceit must be used. I feel confident saying every response here will say "I don't want to be lied to" because no one does. Deception is different. When she spends the day buying materials to make cookies for me, and answers "What'd you do today?" with "I went shopping - got new panties for you, Master." That is, technically, a lie. I see it as deceit.
So I am in favor of lying to preserve a nice surprise.

While I agree in principle that lying to facilitate a pleasant surprise may be acceptable, I still prefer lies to be kept to a minimum even under such circumstances. For example, in the particular situation you describe, I would prefer my slave to say something along the lines of "I'd rather not tell you just now."

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper
If anyone expects and desires pure honesty from their submissive, they must provide a truth-friendly environment..

Absolutely.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 2:45:36 PM

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I strive to be brutally honest. I wouldent bother if I didnt care.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/19/2008 3:37:14 PM

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Well...there is lying...and there is LYING!... I learned a long time ago that when a woman asks me what I think
of something she is wearing, a new perfume,or her new hair style (assuming I notice, since men don't sometimes)
I think it is just a matter of self preservation for me to say...."that looks great hun"...or..wow, fantastic smell..hard
choice between X (which I really like) and the new one Y...that I might not care for.... But all these things are
superficial, material things...don't really count.

LYING...well..that's another story. Yes, men..(and women too) lie a lot about extra-curricular activites, profiles
online (half the woman are men I think)...etc. etc. Those lies are not acceptable..."unless"...and the "unless" is really
a private matter... Seriously, there is just too much at risk in this lifestyle for a subbie and Domme to have a relationship based on lies and falsehoods. I have been more open and truthful with a Domme than with most anyone else in my life. Would expect the same from her.

(in reply to youngsubgeoff)

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