RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie?

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 12:59:07 AM

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Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
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Sorry for the giant ass lettering, I'll probably be spanked by it, but I am getting beyond annoyed at all the straw dogs being thrown up that have nothing to do with the question at hand. Least I changed it from bright green neon huge letters to red huge letters/

(in reply to ElectraGlide)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 6:39:53 AM

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My responses are in red

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

quote:

He's not asking about lieing to someone who is a burgler an you're being asked if you're alone in the house, or is it ok to lie in extream situations he's asking about lieing in relationships.

lying to strangers, or lying to save your life is NO where near comparable to lying to someone you're in a relationship with.

I answered the OP's title question. Look above..it says "Is it ever acceptable to lie?". If you don't like what I have written, move on. You don't have to respond and you certainly do not have to defend the OP. He is quite capable of doing that himself. I know. YOU can not dictate or decide how MY responses will be on any thread that I respond on, you can only control your own responses.

quote:

Why are people trying to twist his question into some situation he wasn't talking about to justify ever having lied or being someone who may lie regularly . Throwing up all these senario's where lying is good and acceptable, even justifiable, ie a robber asking you something or a cop asking you something an you don't answer correctly or a stranger who doesn't deserve the answer, or you're lying to your mom to protect her feelings, is just a straw dog because it has NOTHING to do with the question, which was about lying in RELATIONSHIPS, not some random situation with a stranger or where your life is in danger or to your mom who couldn't handle the news of her sons death.

Don't you mean why am *I* doing this, sweetheart? No sense in including anyone else's posts, since you didn't quote anyone's but mine, I seem to be the only one "throwing out these scenero's" as you put it. Like I said, don't worry about how I or any other reacts to a thread. If the OP is offended, then I will apologize, but as for you, no. Go about your day and don't worry about the "straw dogs".
Oh and by the way, I do not lie on a regular basis nor do I need to justify any of my past lies. We all lie. If we didn't we wouldn't be on this earth, I can promise you that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

~FR~ But I want to address Lady Pact's words here..

quote:

I would also like to add that certain matters are not permissible to omit either. Some things are too important not to mention.

There ARE times that I feel one should lie. I will tell you why I believe this. I have never been one to join in this type of thread because to me, <snip>
quote:

Zooming in on BDSM, in the context of a BDSM relationship, will you accept and/or understand your partner lying to you in any fashion or is this an utterly reprehensible act for which there is no forgiveness? There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm curious as to people's thoughts.

edited to fix format

< Message edited by MistressOfGa -- 8/21/2008 6:42:43 AM >

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(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 7:33:32 AM

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Possibly because who you are sleeping with is not the only relationbship you have in your life? I have had a relationship with my kids, with my bosses, with my Master, my spouse, my parents (now deceased) and my friends. Not all of them were sexual, but THEY WERE STILL RELATIONSHIPS and if you will lie in one, what stops you from lieing in all or from them thinking you will? Apparently we have all formed enough of a relationship here that you feel it is alright to yell to get your point across. (Generally that is what all caps and enlarged type is considered).

Now, yes, he was speaking of a BDSM relationship, but that does not stop a topic/discussion from evolving to include more than the original postings direction. The question seems to have evolved to Where you draw the line, but the question I posted before the post you quoted was just as relevant to BDSM as to any other Sexual Relationship.

Poenkitten

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 8:11:18 AM

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quote:

he's talking about lies in a relationship

Can people finally stop twisting the question to be something it never was please!.

Do you think by standing in the middle of a room waving a red flag and screaming your point at the top of your lungs, you will have more people listen to you? This is the equivalent of what you are doing here. Calm down. You can't always lead the thread in which way you want it to go.Try to understand, that each of us read an OP, and interpret our own feelings about it. Like Poen said, there are many different relationships. I don't know if Elan was talking about a d/s or m/s or just relationships in general. I chose to use the OP as I saw fit. My choice. Stop stomping your feet and having a complete melt down over it. <Hands yhma a chill pill>

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(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 8:19:10 AM

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I am happy that that has worked for you and your UM. The spirit of Santa and his brethren have been around for a very long time and span countries, he was not just a fiction of the Merchants though his current image is. There are however a lot of fictions that your UM believes because he is taught them to be truths. Try American and World History, or for that matter the News.

You say you do not engage in lies and would rather be told and tell the truth.. then I ask you to look to your signature line
Sylverë (may or may not be your name, unknown so taken as fact as one you are known by just as I am known by my nick)
Sidhe who must be obeyed (Sidhe is another name for elves, which are to most people fictional. Are you saying that you are Sidhe, can you prove that through DNA? Truth or Fiction?)
Ninja Queen (Oddly enough the Ninja never had Queens according to historical records..so to claim to be such without consent from any and all Ninja's currently existing if any would be a lie)
Heck how many of us actually USE our real pictures on our accounts, so any depiction of someone other than ourselves (not just a floral or message image) would be in effect a lie as we don't look like that. Neither Phoenix or I have anything to hide and anyone who writes us soon learns our first names, so the picture you see is us, no one else.

We accept a large dose of fiction in our lives to make them enjoyable. We exercise our imaginations and tell tall tales to entertain, educate and express ourselves. Some of the hardest lies to face and tear apart are the ones we tell ourselves. We do tell them however, and it makes our world a lot easier to live in. We can be hypercritical of ourselves and still manage to avoid being brutally honest at the same time. We remember the good times, but bury many of the bad ones, and this allows us to continue to move forward and even try again in finding our ideal relationship. We heal from the pain and tell ourselves that yeah the sun will come out tomorrow (sitting under Tropical Storm Fay as I write this and facing another week of rain this is a fiction I would LOVE to continue to believe). We believe that the next person we elect as President will turn this country around and that we are going to pull out of the recession before it becomes a depression. We tell ourselves constantly that our representatives in Congress and the Senate are working for us and have our best interest in mind.

We live by the lies we tell ourselves and are told. We strive not to lie to those we love or that we are in relationships with BDSM or otherwise and do a pretty good job of it. But frankly anytime we stand to be whipped with a cane instead of a flogger and we are not in the right head space for the cane, but that is what Master/Mistress wants and so gets..is a lie. We swallow our needs and work with what we are given. The alternative is to tell them what they can and can't use on us that night because we are not in the mood for what they want. Not very submissive that. It's the rare Master or Mistress that walks in and says..so Lets Play tonight what instruments do you want me to use on you and what ones are going to keep you from enjoying yourself with me. We lie when we rise to the occasion when we are less than eager for it..but we do it because ultimately making our partner feel good, makes us feel better as well. We stroke egos, tell each other that things will get better, that somethings don't matter that do to keep relationships moving forward instead of stalled by constant fights just because of a bad day. We learn tact and how to discuss and argue without rancor, and practice that ultimate lie..Politeness when all we want to do is scream, kick, bite and punch or cry and walk away. We do this at work, in the store and at home because to do otherwise, to display such actions would be counter-productive no matter how much better we would feel if we just let loose.

We may want to be honest, and brutally so at that but I suspect far more of us are less honest than we like to believe. If not with others then with ourselves because no one is ever ALWAYS in the mood, all of us have bad days and yet, we strive not to let others we care about suffer through them and so we lie..we smile, we engage in conversation and play when all we want to do is hide in a closet and hammer a hole in the wall with a high heel. We put on a brave face and work to keep family/SO spirits high as we face surgery, medical tests, good and bad news and in doing so ..we begin to feel better and not in the grips of our fears. But when we are alone..when there is no one around, we scream and kick and let it out.

Of course this is only my opinion..but it is based on a lot of observation..

poenkitten
Edited for typos

< Message edited by BlackPhx -- 8/21/2008 8:28:40 AM >

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 8:47:14 AM

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From: Sacramento
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I'm sticking with the original question in your bdsm relationships is lying acceptible, for original replies, but true original questions can branch out.

so I'll branch my answer out, I don't say I never ever not in my life lie, because that's just not true if I said so, but I strive not lie to partners, and that's how it should be in my relationship.

Lies in general life might be nessisary but I don't believe they have any place in my relationships.

< Message edited by YourhandMyAss -- 8/21/2008 8:49:57 AM >

(in reply to BlackPhx)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 11:40:14 AM

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My mom decided to protect us from our father in not telling us what it was like to be near him and allowed us to believe he was the wonderful daddy he presented himself to be. (Isnt' that was is ordered in most divorce courts?) She didn't tell us of his jealousy or his rage or how he didn't pay to support us. That lie nearly cost me my life. I didn't have any warning about what was about to hit me when as a teen I thought I could get away with more with dear daddy and she couldn't convince me I shouldn't. Dear daddy... the man I loved so much and looked up to, turned out to be a monster mom never warned me about, so when I spoke honestly as I thought he was doing and he was saying something bad about my mom, I asked him what he meant. That was my first beating. I reminded him of my mother and yes, there was some sexual intensity there for him and since I was leaving his crazy ass and going home to mama, he was jealous and mad. I thank my step mother for saving my life that night, as I was passing out from his hand around my throat as I heard her yelling 'you're killing her'.

Two black eyes, a broken nose and hand prints around my throat later, mom said she was sorry for lying to me about my father. I learned that lies, even well intended lies can lead to trusting someone that is dangerous. I decided then and there, I would not lie to my um's. So, I never did tell them the fantasy of santa and the funny bunny. I did add joy and hope and excitement to my um's lives, but I used nature and reality and not false hope that a something wonderful would bring them wonderful things and they would be the same wonderful things it lovingly brought the neighbor um's. See... when one down the street gets a motorized car and one gets a plastic bucket with lots of green grass and some eggs or a stocking with fruit rather than toys... those dears who have been lied to think that santa and bunny like them less. So no, I didn't set my um's up for seeing the favortism. (My um's did have wonderful holidays but some, like during the divorce or when I got sick were lacking. Thank the powers that be, they didn't see that santa and the hoppy guy didn't like them.)

I have told lies and I actually told my um's two lie's. They were shocked and very angry and I am not sure they forgot them either. Maybe I set myself up for their judgment. Because I tried to live a high standard and when I did fail, I was harshly judged. In my mind, even though I was well intended, I had broken my own creed and crossed a line with them and it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't justified the lie.

Many have been challenged in their wanting to be honest. I can understand, but I do have to question. Like... if someone's feelings are so easily hurt or offended, could it be that that person might have some personal issues to refine and isn't our enabling them creating future lies that must be told to protect their fragle ego? If santa and the bunny are presented as so real they come bearing gifts... won't your um's wonder that if you lied about that, couldn't you lie about something else? I could go on, but won't.

Every one lies, that has been established, but what is the problem in wanting or needing to try to live with honesty in personal relationships and why the challenge to support a negative that we justify with a positive that might just be enabling someone who could grow and bloom into a much more secure person had we not lied. Why the justification of lying and why are those who wish to not lie found guilty of something?

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 12:56:26 PM

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I for one never said that those who do not lie or wish not to lie are guilty of anything. I can also understand (very much so) the danger and betrayal you experienced with your father, that is a danger that many can face when they don't know the truth, but at the same time, there are just as many parents who going through divorce poison their children against the other partner or try to play them off against them. It is a fine line to know what is the truth of the matter. Dad could have just as easily been the father you thought he was, that he was not was regrettable.

I encouraged my children to have a rich fantasy life, to use their imaginations and to explore worlds in books. I also encouraged them to look at the world straight on without rose colored glasses. They met people in all walks of life, of all types, religions even kinks and learned to evaluate them for the people they were, not for what they projected or others projected on them. They knew each and every one of them had faults, bad days and good, tempers etc. They believed in Santa Claus, not as a jolly man who slid down Chimneys and left coal or gifts, but as the spirit of giving and caring. Some years were better than others as far as gift giving, BUT, every year included someone who had no one to share the holiday with and they learned that no matter how little or much you have, there is always someone with less that you can share with. We also worked shelters and church food kitchen to help those who didn't have even as much as we did. They learned that Santa was within each of us and wasn't about gimmie.

Can I say I ever lied to them..Yes. when someone walked out of our lives without so much as a glance and a wave. When I was struggling to make ends meet and I told them I wasn't hungry and gave them all of the food we had for dinner. Did they know I lied? Probably, possibly, I don't know, but I do know that we survived it and we always had trust in each other.

I will strive to never lie to Master, but at the same time I see no need to forget tact when I tell him something. I can still be honest and not hurt his feelings or undermine his confidence in himself, as I would hope he can be with me.

Poenkitten

(in reply to Lockit)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 1:14:59 PM

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quote:

Two black eyes, a broken nose and hand prints around my throat later, mom said she was sorry for lying to me about my father. I learned that lies, even well intended lies can lead to trusting someone that is dangerous. I decided then and there, I would not lie to my um's. So, I never did tell them the fantasy of santa and the funny bunny. I did add joy and hope and excitement to my um's lives, but I used nature and reality and not false hope that a something wonderful would bring them wonderful things and they would be the same wonderful things it lovingly brought the neighbor um's. See... when one down the street gets a motorized car and one gets a plastic bucket with lots of green grass and some eggs or a stocking with fruit rather than toys... those dears who have been lied to think that santa and bunny like them less. So no, I didn't set my um's up for seeing the favortism. (My um's did have wonderful holidays but some, like during the divorce or when I got sick were lacking. Thank the powers that be, they didn't see that santa and the hoppy guy didn't like them.)

Lockit,
Thank you for sharing such a personal story with us. I love the human side of CM. You are fabulous, don't let anyone tell you differently.

_____________________________

(in reply to Lockit)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 2:02:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
Zooming in on BDSM, in the context of a BDSM relationship, will you accept and/or understand your partner lying to you in any fashion or is this an utterly reprehensible act for which there is no forgiveness? There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm curious as to people's thoughts.

As a person who has been in a number of long-term relationships and as someone who once believed in compete honesty, I can now attest that there are indeed times when it is appropriate not to tell your partner everything you are thinking. And yes, there are also times when it is appropriate to outright lie. While this may sound like a contradiction, I do believe that honesty is a cornerstone and an essential building block of any relationship. Perhaps I've already tainted the discussion by adding this precursor from my own experiences, but I hope not. :-)

Elan.

As often happens with threads of this nature, this one has gone down several paths. It's gone off course from the original question, and while I appreciate those who shared such personal stories, I think they are not the focus of the intent.

To date, I have never encountered any of the extreme examples that have been mentioned in this thread within the context of a BDSM dynamic. I have not dealt with Alzheimer's disease, nor have I had to lie to protect others in My household because a knife was at My throat and I was in mortal danger. While My heart goes out to those who have had to endure the situations that have been mentioned in this thread, I would hazard to guess that these are the exceptions, rather than the rule. In which case, I would have to say that My answer is unchanged.

Perhaps it is My way of doing things. I have yet to find the situation where I felt My submissive would be justified in lying to Me. Prior to collaring clip we discussed what that collar entailed. One of those items was full disclosure. Under no circumstances is he permitted to tell Me something that isn't true. In addition, he is not allowed to hide any information that he believes I would feel effects our dynamic. This was and is one of the terms for him to wear My collar. If it is broken, our bond has less value.

To keep things light, I will say that I don't put My boy into situations where he feels the need to lie to Me. I don't ask him questions about if I look fat in a certain outfit or what he bought Me for Christmas. I do give him the option of telling Me that he would prefer not to say if he has a surprise planned for Me or if he has not yet found the words to discuss something with Me. I'll even go so far as to tell others that if there is something you don't want Me to know, don't tell My boy. Another person in My life might get away with not telling Me everything, but My sub is honor bound to do so.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ElanSubdued)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 2:56:13 PM

SylvereApLeanan

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Your post contains a lot of eroneous assumptions about me. I decline to point out all of the fallacies. I just don't have time. Suffice it to say, you do not have sufficient experience with me to be able to say anything at all about my character or my actions.

I bring to your attention the following quote from my original response to this thread:

quote:

I won't say that I don't ever lie, but I work to tell as few as possible.

I would also like to point out the following quote from the OP:

quote:

Zooming in on BDSM, in the context of a BDSM relationship, will you accept and/or understand your partner lying to you in any fashion or is this an utterly reprehensible act for which there is no forgiveness?

Given the context, my statements remain accurate and consistent. You fail to make a valid point by the mere fact that you have not given adequate attention to what I have said. Rather, you introduce my signature file as "evidence" of what you believe to be true about me. This is a straw man argument and not worth consideration. In fact, you have committed a majority of the common errors of debate, thus rendering any argument you might have made null and void.

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl

"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

(in reply to BlackPhx)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 3:04:21 PM

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Lady Pact,
Fantastic post, as always. Yes, I must say that the examples I gave were the exception, not the rule. So on that note, I will try to answer the OP's question.

Under no situation, other than the extreme that I discussed would it be acceptable for my submissive to lie to me. Geoff told me today that he wasn't really looking at anything when I asked what he was looking at, well he was, but he said he felt it to insignificant to mention. I reminded him that *I* would be the one to decide what is important enough to discuss and what isn't. It wasn't a lie, as I know him to be brutally honest, so I didn't view it as such. The old saying goes "Pick your battles", comes to mind sometimes. Needless to say, he understood and we moved on. My last sub lied to me so many times I couldn't keep up with him. But then again, I didn't provide hiim a friendly truth telling environment. Why did I put up with it for so long? I loved him. That freaking emotion kills D/s relationships and ANY relationships a lot. My opinion, mind you. I'm just sayin..
Is it ever acceptable to lie? <Sigh> No. I hope that I do not make the same mistakes I have made in the past. I hope that geoff feels comfortable talking to me about anything and everything, so that the line of communication does not break. Communication baby, that's what it's all about.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 4:08:56 PM

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MoGA......

I do hear you. These matters are difficult, aren't they? It would be so easy if they were black and white. Yet, we have things to consider.

I have My eyes on a boy. If he can come forth and be completely honest, there might be a form of a collar for him. I cam not say. The decision is his.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MistressOfGa)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 4:24:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Yes, I have always been different.
This list included things like this:
You are the most beautiful woman in the world.
I will always love you.
You are the smartest and best woman I will ever meet.
Etc.
I always enjoyed hearing them say these things, even though I had to write down what their
dumb asses should say to me!
IF they went a long time without mentioning a few phrases, I would ask if they lost the "list".

Flattery appears to work even when the recipient knows the other person is just saying it. Oh, and it works on men too, flattery that is.

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 4:27:54 PM

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LadyPact, MoGa, Lockit, and everyone;

I appreciate everyone's contribution. The thread started to heat up a bit so I stepped back to observe as opposed to adding more fuel to the fire. This is a subject that brings with it many personal experiences for almost anyone who reads it. I think most of us aren't that far apart in our beliefs vis-a-vis lying versus keeping information to ourselves when it is appropriate and ethical to do so. Even still, just the notion of lying tends to bring great emotions with it.

Elan.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 4:29:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

Flattery appears to work even when the recipient knows the other person is just saying it. Oh, and it works on men too, flattery that is.

Even though I don't take the effusive flattery seriously when it comes from complete and virtual strangers, I don't begrudge them for making an effort.

_____________________________

~ Miss Marie

a.k.a. "mean Lady"

(in reply to Paulnz)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 4:32:51 PM

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Actually Sylverë I make no assumptions about you at all nor do I allude to any conclusions. I have indeed given full attention to what you have said in my answer to your post. Yes I did point to your signature line as an example of fiction not that it is a bad thing and that you should be casitgated for it, but that to protect your privacy you are potentially using a nick, and are not posting your actual picture. They are not the truth about you, merely protective lies until you get to know someone well enough to share the reality and truth with them, though not with everyone. This is commendable especially where their are Ums involved.

Conversely I have also never said that fiction is a bad thing, I rather enjoy it and have a library full of it ranging from Elves in Auto racing to Dragons on other worlds, as well as many other genre. I said that the claims you make in your signature could also be considered prevarications, or stretching of the truth.

I suspect that should we find a lost tribe in the Amazon who has never seen anyone outside his tribe, we would still find tellers of tall tales and liars/ people lie for many reasons, and the first of them is to protect themselves and their emotions.

As for what your Um's learn in school, unless they are home schooled they are learning the same things every other child is and sadly history is written by the victor and he rarely writes himself in a bad light. That truth tends to lie somewhere between what the victor says and what the loser says as both prefer to paint themselves in a better light.

poenkitten

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 4:37:52 PM

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Oddly enough sometimes having a complete and total stranger give a wolf whistle or say you looked FANTASTIC after I have danced under a whip at a club, seems a Lot more honest that flattery by friends and lovers. They rarely have anything to gain.

poenkitten (who worked on masochist one night at a party and got a lovely round of applause when she was finished.)
( I am a sado-masochistic slave)

(in reply to Misstoyou)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 4:50:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misstoyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulnz

Flattery appears to work even when the recipient knows the other person is just saying it. Oh, and it works on men too, flattery that is.

Even though I don't take the effusive flattery seriously when it comes from complete and virtual strangers, I don't begrudge them for making an effort.

Which reminds me that I like it when I go to the hairdresser and she tells me what nice hair I have.

(in reply to Misstoyou)

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 6:23:21 PM

Posts: 2929
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued

LadyPact, MoGa, Lockit, and everyone;

I appreciate everyone's contribution. The thread started to heat up a bit so I stepped back to observe as opposed to adding more fuel to the fire. This is a subject that brings with it many personal experiences for almost anyone who reads it. I think most of us aren't that far apart in our beliefs vis-a-vis lying versus keeping information to ourselves when it is appropriate and ethical to do so. Even still, just the notion of lying tends to bring great emotions with it.

Elan.

Elan,
I had wondered where you had scurried off to. I hope that I have not in any way offended you or made you feel uncomfortable within your own thread, if so, I apologize. You are right, it could be and was an emotional subject.

Hugs!

_____________________________

(in reply to ElanSubdued)

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