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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 6:54:05 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

I did point to your signature line as an example of fiction not that it is a bad thing and that you should be casitgated for it, but that to protect your privacy you are potentially using a nick, and are not posting your actual picture. They are not the truth about you, merely protective lies until you get to know someone well enough to share the reality and truth with them, though not with everyone. This is commendable especially where their are Ums involved.


These are examples of your mistaken assumptions.  In fact, there is truth in my signature file and icon if one knows how to read them.  There are no lies.
 
Sylverë -- this is one of my names.  It isn't my only name, but it is the name under which my essays have been published and the one my friends call me in my day-to-day life.
 
Sidhe -- this one has two truths in it.  The first is that some scholars believe the legends of the Fae were inspired by the Picts.  If those scholars are correct, then yes, I am Sidhe.  The second is that the Leanan Sidhe is a spiritual archetype with which I identify.  Think of it as similar to the Native American animal totem.  The archetype explains how I interact with the spiritual realm.  Again, I am Sidhe.
 
Ninja Queen -- my fiance has a black belt in ninjitsu and high ranking belts in several other martial arts.  In my household, I am queen to his king.  It might be more accurate to write it as "Ninja's Queen" but it is still true as it is.
 
The vampire icon -- while those aren't my lips, the vampire icon represents one of my primary kinks.  It's one of the "must haves" when I'm considering a partner.  I won't accept a partner who has this as a hard or soft limit.  Lots of truth there.  As for my picture, I have several available on my profile on the other side.  They show my face clearly for anyone to see.  Using the icon doesn't protect privacy, it reveals more about me than my photo.
 
You'll notice I don't have any trouble explaining my sig file and icon on a public message board.  They are not prevarications or protective lies, but they are heavy on symbolism.  Your allusion to fiction as acceptable entertainment fails.  Fiction does not pretend to be fact and fiction writers do not proclaim they are speaking truth.  There is a world of difference between fiction as entertainment and a lie.  You cannot compare blood and bananas and expect to base a successful argument on the comparison.
 
As for the rest of my posts, at no time have I said I never lie.  Quite the opposite.  I have lied and I would lie again in a heartbeat, with no remorse, if it meant protecting the life of someone I love.  However, the OP did not ask about extreme circumstances such as facing down an intruder or providing comfort for a dying relative. 
 
The OP asked about BDSM relationships and when or if we consider it acceptable to lie to our partners in that context.  My answer is and shall remain emphatically NO.  Nor will I tolerate a partner who proves to be a liar.  Hard. Limit.  I will also work my ass off to make sure I don't lie to my partner.  I may say something that later proves to be inaccurate, but I will not intentionally make a false statement.
 
This is how I choose to live my life and how I expect my intimate partners to live theirs for the duration of our relationship.  Frankly, I find it offensive that so many people think it's perfectly fine to lie to their partners (or anyone) and assume that I do the same just because they do.  That disgusts me.  I cannot fathom why anyone would find this acceptable and the rampant rationalization of "it's okay as long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings" earns my contempt for those individuals.  The lack of integrity such behavior displays is something I want no part of.

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 9:30:45 PM   
Briena


Posts: 196
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		WOW!  Didnt you get your panties all up in a bunch!  How sad, you cant even have a conversation without getting on the defensive.  Sorry about the wedgie, maybe you should reach up and pull your panties outta your ass crack and get a sense of humor.  The whole thing about pregnant chicks was suppose to be silly, but youre obviously too dense to see it.  Sorry.  You must be god like and never told a lie in your life.  I guess youre the exception to humanity on that one, because last I heard everyone has lied and will lie again sometime in their life.  I have no intentions of involving myself with a woman who has shit out her sense of humor when she had her first period.  I hope your fiance enjoys your PMS attitude, I find it pathetic. 

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 9:45:41 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline 		Thank you for proving my point regarding lack of integrity.  You've also demonstrated intellectual bankruptcy by resorting to ad hominem attacks.  Feel free to continue.

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

(in reply to Briena)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 9:51:14 PM   
Briena


Posts: 196
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

 cannot fathom why anyone would find this acceptable and the rampant rationalization of "it's okay as long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings" earns my contempt for those individuals.  The lack of integrity such behavior displays is something I want no part of.


I love how you quote me there, but you failed to include the rest... Interesting.  As I said before, I have had unattractive, physically ugly friends, and when asked "Do I look ok in this outfit"  I am not going to respond, "No, youre ugly so no matter what you wear youre still going to be ugly."  Instead I will tell her/him that they look good in the outfit and it suits them, or that the outfit doesnt suit them but I am not going to be hurtful and tell them how I feel about their looks.  I see nothing wrong with boosting someones self esteem by telling them that they are beautiful even if I dont think they are.  That is what I meant when I said that it was ok to lie as long as it doesnt hurt anyones feelings.  I dont think lying to give someone a little extra confidance falls into the same ball park as lying about somones behavior to keep them from believing bad things about that person.  Next time try to quote me correctly and dont cherry pick to validate your points.   

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 9:56:01 PM   
Briena


Posts: 196
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		Awww look at you prancing around on your high horse of superiority.  I think the lack of oxygen has gotten to you, maybe you should step off it and take a breather.  Your better than thou attitude makes it seem like youre lacking in some areas in your life so you need to prove how much better than me you are.  Its ok, they have therapists that can help you with that.  Try the yellow pages. 

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 10:25:06 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline 		You are not the only person to say s/he thinks it's okay to lie as long as no one gets hurt by it.  I was not quoting you specifically so get over yourself.  Rather, I was using the quotation marks to indicate the general sentiment.  I don't really care why you think it's okay to lie.  Your reasons do not matter to me in the least.  In my view, it is never acceptable to lie to someone with whom I have an intimate relationship or for that person to lie to me.  Period.  Deal with it or don't, but stop trying to make yourself look better than you are by resorting to pitiful attempts at rationalization.  While you're at it, stop trying to make me out to be the Demon Bitch Queen of Hell because I strive for a higher ethical standard and expect my partners to do likewise.  I am a bitch but not for that reason.
 
And, yes, my fiance loves my attitude on this subject since it's nearly identical to his.  It's one of the reasons we're so good together.

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

(in reply to Briena)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 10:47:19 PM   
Briena


Posts: 196
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		I dont try to make you out to be anything.  Your comments do that for you.  If you dont like how you are portrayed then fix it.  I cannot make you out to be anything other then what you actually are.  If you are being portrayed as a "Demon Bitch Queen of Hell" then you do that on your own.  Stop projecting blame onto others for your lack of self image.     Own up to your own self image issues and deal with them.  I cant fix them for you, sorry, Im not a therapist.  Like I said, try the yellow pages. 

< Message edited by Briena -- 8/21/2008 10:49:44 PM >

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 10:54:38 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline 		You're absolutely right.  You are nothing to me and you have no power in my life.  I'm done with you.
 
 

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

(in reply to Briena)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 10:57:47 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline 		Jerry's on! <Passes the popcorn to Bear and Raymond, as I know they will be joining us shortly>

_____________________________





(in reply to Briena)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 10:59:38 PM   
phoenixinchains


Posts: 2534
Joined: 4/5/2007
From: i live here
Status: offline 		Lies lead to a lack of trust, why would anyone want to open that door?

_____________________________

OWNED BY CHAOSFORGE.
purrfectly happy slave of Chaosforge.


http://www.myspace.com/phoenixofchaosforge
devotee of CM gods and mods

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 11:22:34 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		LOL Isn't that the truth, I have over the years expesially with the last two partners , found myself putting up with crap that was never part of the deal, and why? Because I let loving them rule my higher judgement. And I was not willing to throw the relationship out over the issues, because, again I loved them.

However that is how my last x became an x though cause I said fuck this it's not worth putting up with love you or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

Why did I put up with it for so long? I loved him. That freaking emotion kills D/s relationships and ANY relationships a lot. My opinion, mind you. I'm just sayin..

(in reply to MistressOfGa)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 11:42:30 PM   
Briena


Posts: 196
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		That was fun... Whats next?

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/21/2008 11:45:54 PM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Interesting topic to google. 

I really like this article - it sums up my own thoughts exactly:

http://innerself.ca/Reflections/lying.htm

Of course no-one likes knowingly being lied to.  False flattery is humiliating.  Constantly wondering if you are being told the truth or lies by a loved one can send you around the bend.  Live long enough with a habitual liar and you lose confidence that you can discern reality from fiction any more.  Liars can make you eventually question your own sanity.  It is a horrible form of abuse.

However, before the holier-than-thou  "I never lie" camp congratulate themselves too much, remember that sometimes telling the truth is also a form of emotional abuse.  There is no need to be cruel and then excuse yourself along the lines "but I am just being honest!!"

Like my Nanna always said: if you are not going to say something nice, don't say anything at all. 

She also believed you can always find an honest truth to pay compliments.  She suggested to us kids that if someone at church looked awful, comment what nice teeth they have

Mind you, my Nanna was  a bit barmy.  I think everyone in the parish wondered why she was so fixated on their teeth.


_____________________________

<----- Corset, mask and collar designed and manufactured by metalsmith Karl H, chromed and lined in black suede. Masks and collars available from http://www.lucreziadesade.com.au/default.html. Corsets custom made only

(in reply to phoenixinchains)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/22/2008 8:57:29 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Briena

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

 cannot fathom why anyone would find this acceptable and the rampant rationalization of "it's okay as long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings" earns my contempt for those individuals.  The lack of integrity such behavior displays is something I want no part of.



Briena...not my quote :)

poenkitten

(in reply to Briena)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/22/2008 9:55:04 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Fast reply not directed at any one persons post...

I don't think I shall ever tell someone I am intimate with the following:
1 You suck as a cocksman, take lessons or get out of my bed
2 I hate the way you kiss
3 You smell and need to bathe

Instead I MAY say
1. It feels good when you do this, lets try that next time
2 I really like it when you kiss me this way...(and then demonstrate) 
3. Care to join me in the shower?

If it is a slave I own or a Dominant I am with, or just a plain ol vanilla relationship  I see no reason to destroy an ego in pursuit of the truth. You can tell the truth and still display tact, diplomacy and consideration of the other persons feelings.

Would I dismiss someone for lying to me? It depends on the lie, the reason behind it and the outcome of it. If they lie about cheating or collecting pictures of UMs in sexual situations..they are out of my life as fast as I can put their clothes out. However, please note, the marriage between Master and I is an open one as long as either of us who is considering another introduces that person to the other and nothing is hidden we do not consider it cheating. If they lie to me about committing a crime, or having a STD..again gone ( I want to see proof that you are HIV , Herpes, etc. free before anything is done unwrapped ..If they lie about having a beer or jacking off..the punishment will fit the crime.

The truth will always out, lies are rarely sustainable, but, rarely does one person hold all of the truth, it usually lies between all sides of the story.

Poenkitten

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/22/2008 12:51:24 PM   
Briena


Posts: 196
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Briena

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

 cannot fathom why anyone would find this acceptable and the rampant rationalization of "it's okay as long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings" earns my contempt for those individuals.  The lack of integrity such behavior displays is something I want no part of.



Briena...not my quote :)

poenkitten


Oh I didnt think it was you who quoted me lol.  I like you, I like your views on here its good stuff to read. :)

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/22/2008 1:03:35 PM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you, I do read before I post and take time to consider my answers. If I find myself responding from anger I walk away and cool off first.  Sometimes I will take a tangent or a less than popular direction but it is never without consideration that there is more than one side to anything save a Mobius strip http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Mobius.html or Klein bottle http://www.kleinbottle.com/ and that everyone has their own view that is just as valid.

Poenkitten

(in reply to Briena)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/22/2008 1:58:51 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

Interesting topic to google. 

I really like this article - it sums up my own thoughts exactly:

http://innerself.ca/Reflections/lying.htm

Of course no-one likes knowingly being lied to.  False flattery is humiliating.  Constantly wondering if you are being told the truth or lies by a loved one can send you around the bend.  Live long enough with a habitual liar and you lose confidence that you can discern reality from fiction any more.  Liars can make you eventually question your own sanity.  It is a horrible form of abuse.

However, before the holier-than-thou  "I never lie" camp congratulate themselves too much, remember that sometimes telling the truth is also a form of emotional abuse.  There is no need to be cruel and then excuse yourself along the lines "but I am just being honest!!"

Like my Nanna always said: if you are not going to say something nice, don't say anything at all. 

She also believed you can always find an honest truth to pay compliments.  She suggested to us kids that if someone at church looked awful, comment what nice teeth they have

Mind you, my Nanna was  a bit barmy.  I think everyone in the parish wondered why she was so fixated on their teeth.


I had to quote this because this is so very much how I see it.  The thing is, just because you take a stance of not lying to someone, doesn't mean that you have to be brutally honest about anything and everything.  I'm not saying that anyone should just let loose with any thought that might happen to come into their head.  There is still a thing such as tact, you know.  Both really can co-exist.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/22/2008 2:30:25 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

Of course no-one likes knowingly being lied to.  False flattery is humiliating.  Constantly wondering if you are being told the truth or lies by a loved one can send you around the bend.  Live long enough with a habitual liar and you lose confidence that you can discern reality from fiction any more.  Liars can make you eventually question your own sanity.  It is a horrible form of abuse.


Abuse is exactly how I see it.  Lies do hurt someone.  All of them.  I work REALLY DAMN FUCKING HARD not to lie.  Like my namesake the Sidhe, I can talk until you're sure the sky is green and the sun rises in the west...but I generally don't.  I write fiction and have a background in theater, so I could be a highly skilled liar if I chose.  I choose honesty.  If I lie, it may not hurt the person I lie to in that moment, but it hurts my integrity.   

quote:

However, before the holier-than-thou  "I never lie" camp congratulate themselves too much, remember that sometimes telling the truth is also a form of emotional abuse.  There is no need to be cruel and then excuse yourself along the lines "but I am just being honest!!"


I agree.  Truth can be cruel, depending on how it is expressed.  I try to phrase it gently without sacrificing my integrity.  It is possible to be both truthful and tactful. 

It is not always easy to choose honesty over the small, quick lie.  Especially when it seems so harmless.  I have sacrificed to uphold the standard I set.  I may not live up to my standard of honesty every minute of every day, but I work toward it.  My committment to doing that work makes me a better person.  I will not become a liar just to make someone feel better about herself.  I will not let anyone tear me down because he wants me to wallow in the same filthy lies as he does.  Does that mean I think I'm better than everyone else?  Not really.  Even if it did, I am better than that.  I don't view it as a negative. 
 
Neither do the people who matter.

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/22/2008 2:32:21 PM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		(I'm still around after all! First time I've had a chance to visit in a while, though...busy, busy!)

In an intimate relationship, I don't lie and I don't accept lying. That doesn't mean I don't tell the truth gently and kindly, but I do still tell the truth and expect and even demand the same in return. The less close someone is to me, the more likely I am to tell white lies/lies of convenience (never with malicious intent, in other words), though, generally, I'm far more honest than most people and work to be so.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 140
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