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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Geisha girls, trained for years to be submissive, but artfully submissive - that's what finally prompts this question.  I don't want to push the comparison between geisha girls and male subs too far because that would be too, well, weird.  But:

I keep seeing comments from Dommes along the lines of "It's really simple.  The sub that I want is one who obeys and wants to do just that".  Yet, there's a mass of contradictions involved, as far as I can see - and they have to be absorbed before the point when a sub even begins to write his profile.  'Make it clear you're a sub', I was told, 'but do not list your likes and dislikes.  A Domme will see the 'likes' as a list of demands and she'll place you in the category of "one those standard, tiresome kink-fans who wants to control from underneath"'.  Yet, how else do you express your need to be a sub otherwise?  I'm pretty damned  proficient at writing ( though I say it myself) but I found it hard.  What about other men who can't write as well?  More fundamentally: how does a man have a long-term desire to be submissive without that desire 'fixing' on certain fantasies?

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Then I read of Dommes who want to find 'real men who are subs'.  That is, Dommes who don't want wimps.  Fine - but are such Dommes aware of just how much of a contradiction they're asking for in such a man?  I mean, it's such an enormous paradox.  You, the sub, have succeeded in a male culture that demands that you compete and win yet, somehow, you have to reconcile that with submitting to your female partner.  How could that be anything but difficult for any human mind?

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OK, assume you've found such a sub anyway, and now he's your partner.  Or one of your partners.  You don't want him to be an automaton - if you did, you'd be happy with a blow-up doll.  You want him to have his own brain and his own desires.  But he's got to want them just so much, but no more.  The level of his desires has to be perfectly tuned - too much, and he's dominating you; too little, and he's a bore and you might as well stick with your vibe. 

The clincher for me re that is that enormous and still-growing thread on hetero men sucking cock.  I've seen the same answer, time and again, from Dommes - just as I've had it from past vanilla girlfriends: "I want to see you aroused, but against your will".  How the fack does that work, exactly?

As far as I can see, it works by means of the sub being able to put up with two entirely contradictory demands on his emotions and his libido in particular.  He's supposed to love it and hate it at the same time.  That's what gets his Domme off.  In fact, that's what always seems really to get a Domme off - her sub loving and hating a thing at the same time.   But if I'm right in that, then being a sub is no straightforward thing at all - it's a complicated and subtle task.  No wonder so many 'potential subs' don't 'make the grade' for Dommes.

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It might all be a lot easier for we male subs, I have to say, if we had the psychology, culture and history behind us of geisha girls.  But we haven't - we're just men, brought up as 'men should be brought up', after all . . . .

I apologise for the rambling and I do appreciate that I probably 'think too much'.  (I get that all the time.)

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ORIGINAL: Wickad

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

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ORIGINAL: Wickad

Good points.

Cheers,

Sea

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Geisha girls, trained for years to be submissive, but artfully submissive - that's what finally prompts this question.  I don't want to push the comparison between geisha girls and male subs too far because that would be too, well, weird. 

quote:

But:

I keep seeing comments from Dommes along the lines of "It's really simple.  The sub that I want is one who obeys and wants to do just that".  Yet, there's a mass of contradictions involved, as far as I can see - and they have to be absorbed before the point when a sub even begins to write his profile.  'Make it clear you're a sub', I was told, 'but do not list your likes and dislikes.  A Domme will see the 'likes' as a list of demands and she'll place you in the category of "one those standard, tiresome kink-fans who wants to control from underneath"'.  Yet, how else do you express your need to be a sub otherwise?  I'm pretty damned  proficient at writing ( though I say it myself) but I found it hard.  What about other men who can't write as well?  More fundamentally: how does a man have a long-term desire to be submissive without that desire 'fixing' on certain fantasies?

quote:

Then I read of Dommes who want to find 'real men who are subs'.  That is, Dommes who don't want wimps.  Fine - but are such Dommes aware of just how much of a contradiction they're asking for in such a man?  I mean, it's such an enormous paradox.  You, the sub, have succeeded in a male culture that demands that you compete and win yet, somehow, you have to reconcile that with submitting to your female partner.  How could that be anything but difficult for any human mind?

quote:

OK, assume you've found such a sub anyway, and now he's your partner.  Or one of your partners.  You don't want him to be an automaton - if you did, you'd be happy with a blow-up doll.  You want him to have his own brain and his own desires.  But he's got to want them just so much, but no more.  The level of his desires has to be perfectly tuned - too much, and he's dominating you; too little, and he's a bore and you might as well stick with your vibe.

quote:

The clincher for me re that is that enormous and still-growing thread on hetero men sucking cock.  I've seen the same answer, time and again, from Dommes - just as I've had it from past vanilla girlfriends: "I want to see you aroused, but against your will".  How the fack does that work, exactly? 

quote:

It might all be a lot easier for we male subs, I have to say, if we had the psychology, culture and history behind us of geisha girls.  But we haven't - we're just men, brought up as 'men should be brought up', after all . . . .

I apologise for the rambling and I do appreciate that I probably 'think too much'.  (I get that all the time.)

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Many (most?) Dommes want to see male subs doing something the subs don't want to do, but want the subs to simply enjoy the fact that it is making the Domme excited.  They often seem to feel that if it is something the sub would have done willingly then it is not submission at all.
 
I've learnt that much, ATS.  That is, at least enough to know how to keep my trap shut a lot of the time.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

In practice, sub males compete against people of both sexes in many, perhaps most, walks of life - and the only situation in which he lets go of all that and submits is with his Domme. 

That's quite a contradiction, I'd have thought.  Aren't there going to be practical, day-to-day consequences, to be worked through?  More fundamentally, isn't there a bundle of psychological contradictions that needs to be resolved?