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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:26:25 PM   
Joenextdoor


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On the 12 ga. shotgun shell choice, I said EITHER a slug, or buckshot.  Buckshot is devastating.  Its a definite fight stopper, but have you seen what the wound channel looks like when a deer has been hit by a slug?  I could put my fist through the hole.  Either way, dead is dead.  In a home situation, I would rather have the buckshot as far as limiting pass through. 

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:28:32 PM   
Joenextdoor


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No law, no matter how well intentioned, will stop someone determined to get a gun.  The only thing you can do is make punishment so harsh and , well, draconian, that people will chose other forms of weapons to commit crimes with. 

I am still waiting on just how you go about legislating guns away from criminals....

< Message edited by Joenextdoor -- 11/13/2008 4:30:51 PM >

(in reply to HunterS)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:29:20 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor
If you think that I have been watching too many Hollywood movies, then maybe I think that you should wake up from your utopian dream.


A utopian dream  ? I wish. It's all about reality: and the facts are that I'd rather live in the real world, and not imagine that Hollywood is going to knock at my front door every minute of the day. I suppose living in the safest state in the country helps. It also helps that I come from a place where owning a gun isn't a sacred right. Hence my (amused) detachment.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 11/13/2008 4:30:36 PM >


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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:34:45 PM   
Joenextdoor


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I do not sit in my house "waiting "for the door frame to crunch.  I was simply saying I would rather have a chance to defend myself than be defenseless.  Again, you are welcome to never have a gun on your home, and i won't ridicule you for your choice, and I ask that you not ridicule anyone else for wanting to have a gun in their home. As for a reality, if all the guns in the world disappeared overnight, I can assure you, crime would not

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:36:22 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Hence my (amused) detachment.


Detachment? You involve yourself in every single gun thread that pops up and question why Americans feel so strongly about their 2nd Amendment rights. You poke fun and ridicule. I might suggest that as many people have now put a lot of effort into attempting to explain it in a way that you might understand it....maybe the fact that you are not an American precludes you from understanding it in the same way we do. I'm not saying you don't have just as much right to state your opinions as anyone else here. But I will say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. At this point I just can't see any desire for any real understanding on your part and it would seem that your only purpose for involvement is to stir this particular pot.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 11/13/2008 4:37:47 PM >


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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

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(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:38:10 PM   
xBullx


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-fast reply-

I guess I'm an old fashion American, I don't vote party lines, in fact I have over the past several years realized even insisting a party affiliation clouds a person's mindset and unbiased viewpoint. Their challenge becomes construed with simply the proclamation of victory and sacrifices the concept of the greater good.

That being said I believe that those that do not believe they must be prepared for any possibility and succumb to the idea that the Government will take better care of us than we can is applying the morality of the slave to their way of thinking. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not for me. Remember this though, there will always be those applying the master's morality as well and if the "good and law abiding" masterly types do not have the ability to defend their "place" then only those dreadful masters that are cold, ruthless and without compassion for the human condition will remain with the hand on the leash.

Yes I believe in hand guns and assault weapons. I would be just as happy with a sword though. It is the advent of technology that has made the gun my weapon of choice. Forced my hand so to speak. I also believe in the disciplines of use and the brands of morals that inspire free men.

I am the man/the master of Schloss Krieger, it is my responsibility to see to it's survival and I assure you that I will.

The interesting thing about a thread like this is that is is almost always those that would benefit from a world of castrated men that sue for "fairness", disarmament and equality. In the end though it is the very same victims that would scream where have all the men/warriors gone.

If you don't want a gun, fine by me, learn to kneel and serve well. I'm sure that will find you a sense of security so long as your master finds you pleasing.

"Livin', lovin', killin' and dyin'; all parts of the human condition....which part(s) will consume you?" A quote made by yours truly once upon a time on a drop zone far, far away...

< Message edited by xBullx -- 11/13/2008 4:45:23 PM >


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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:38:57 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Since so much of gun violence surrounds drugs, I think we should make drugs illegal, perhaps that would be more effective?

Either that, or imagine what NY would be like if they gave citizens the right to own guns?  Pretty bloody for a few months but after that?  Makes one wonder.

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:39:51 PM   
kittinSol


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That's all cool, fine and dandy, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the OP was trying to imply that his rights were about to be taken away from him when, clearly, and after all the evidence has been considered... they were not. It's all hysteria, and soon you will have to accept that you knee-jerked over something without considering the facts.

Your guns are safe: enjoy them.

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:41:13 PM   
IAMChristine


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hey joe (said in my best...nm).  anyhoo, don't worry if they want to take our guns away even though the criminal element will still find a way to have them.  just keep a stock of rolling pins handy.  they are quite effective when used against skulls or shins, (depending on your stature at any given moment).  they make quite the effective projectile missiles, especially with those nice pointy handles.  but sssshhh, let's keep this our little secret, as soon as they figure out rolling pins can be weapons, they'll be trying to close down every cullinary shop in town.

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yes i'm pro gun...i'm not going to sit around with a fucking rolling pin and hope for the best.







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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:44:52 PM   
Joenextdoor


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I will keep it to myself about those rolling pins!  If guns and bullets are whats responsible for murders, then I guess cars and booze are to blame for drunk driving.  Silly really, when all along I thought that people were responsible for their actions.

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:44:53 PM   
MadRabbit


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Clearly, like all of politics with the polarization of the issues, there is no middle ground. It apparently it's just one extreme or the other.

It's like a game of tug of war where people pretend to be working towards a middle ground only so that when it's reached, they can keep pulling little bit by little bit until the flag on the rope is all the way on the other side.

We reached the middle ground with automatic weapons. Now the new middle ground is "assault rifles" or handguns while leaving shotguns available.

We unban automatic weapons and then next people will push for Anthrax.

Obviously, if we are allowed to arm ourselves, then we are without a doubt going to try and arm children so that has to be stopped.

Obviously, since we banned automatic weapons, then we are without a doubt going to go after the rest so that has to be stopped.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:47:08 PM   
HunterS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

No law, no matter how well intentioned, will stop someone determined to get a gun.  The only thing you can do is make punishment so harsh and , well, draconian, that people will chose other forms of weapons to commit crimes with. 

I am still waiting on just how you go about legislating guns away from criminals....



Please show me where I have said anything even remotely related to your question.  You keep trying to make an argument that does not exist.
 
H.
 

(in reply to Joenextdoor)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:49:22 PM   
Kailen


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I may be missing the point entirely here, but honestly (and no offense to anyone) I've got better things to do with my time than read through 20 pages of this. That said, seems to me if you make guns illegal, then only a criminal will own a gun.

Personally I don't much like guns, I'd be much more at home with a bladed weapon of some sort. But the principal is the same...make weapons illegal, only criminals will own weapons.

Does anyone else see a problem with that?

(in reply to Evility)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:51:44 PM   
Joenextdoor


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Hey MadRabbit....thats always been my belief.  The gun control groups will never stop until they get full disarmament.  When the the "Brady bunch" got the Brady Bill passed, they did not fold up shop and go home.  They continued pushing for further "sensible" gun control measures.  People complain that gun groups like the NRA don't want to ever give an inch....and there's a reason for that!!  The gun banners won't ever just take a victory and quit the fight.  They keep going and going, so groups like the NRA understand that you have to dig your heels in and not give an inch.  While you might believe that victory in the recent heller case would end this gun control nonsense, the truth is, the new tactic now will be taxing guns and ammo to the point of unattainability by the vast majority of the public.  The battle is not over, and I don't see an end in sight.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:52:55 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

maybe the fact that you are not an American precludes you from understanding it in the same way we do.


Very true: I do not understand the sanctification of gun ownership. The more I read about it, the more it seems to me like the attachment to this 'right' necessitates for one to be an American to understand it. Although I have met a few Americans,. born and bred, who do not agree with your philosophy of gun ownership.

Perhaps it's not very clear from what I posted, so I'll reiterate: I am not nearly as anti-guns as I used to be. I have spoken with very good people who believe in their guns and their ownership of weapons, and it has mellowed my point of view considerably. Obviously, I will never see eye to eye with you (unless it's down a barrel :-). This doesn't mean that I judge you in any way. Please, mellow out: god knows, I've had to, big time.

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:54:32 PM   
xBullx


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Hi there pretty kittin,

I'll tell you why I've been cleanin', oilin' and counting rounds....

I'm afraid some fuckin idiot obessed enough with racial paranoia will be inspired to or easily framed as a man willing to kill the man of the hour and the rest of the closet rasict on every side will be fighting in the streets...

Ponder the opportunities abound to inact marshal law at that point...

It's not the common citizens that have my brow furrowed, it's the suspicions of things yet to be considered.

I suspect we all have our paranoid delusions and conspiracy theories.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

That's all cool, fine and dandy, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the OP was trying to imply that his rights were about to be taken away from him when, clearly, and after all the evidence has been considered... they were not. It's all hysteria, and soon you will have to accept that you knee-jerked over something without considering the facts.

Your guns are safe: enjoy them.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:56:12 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
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Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.  I am simply saying that pie in the sky thoughts like "armed robbers shouldn't be allowed to have guns" really will never get one gun away from a criminal.  Laws are written in a much more complicated fashion.  I want to know what law could possibly be written that would take a gun out of the hands of a criminal, without impacting my right to own them?   

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:56:57 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

Hey MadRabbit....thats always been my belief.  The gun control groups will never stop until they get full disarmament.  When the the "Brady bunch" got the Brady Bill passed, they did not fold up shop and go home.  They continued pushing for further "sensible" gun control measures.  People complain that gun groups like the NRA don't want to ever give an inch....and there's a reason for that!!  The gun banners won't ever just take a victory and quit the fight.  They keep going and going, so groups like the NRA understand that you have to dig your heels in and not give an inch.  While you might believe that victory in the recent heller case would end this gun control nonsense, the truth is, the new tactic now will be taxing guns and ammo to the point of unattainability by the vast majority of the public.  The battle is not over, and I don't see an end in sight.


Of course not...until we reach the utopian's of either...

A country where only criminals can obtain guns through illegal means leaving the responsible citizens to wait 10 minutes until the cops show up.

or

My drunk next door neighbor plays a game of "Let's balance the bottle of Anthrax on the end of a broom stick" while waiting for the revolution to start.

Both sound like such wonderful places to live in...

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/13/2008 4:57:46 PM >


_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:58:15 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

You neglect to point out that sawing down a rifle destroys its accuracy.  A sawed off shotgun becomes a close in weapon as its patterning capabilities drop amazingly at what used to be short range for the weapon.  In short, the hacksaw kills the range on rifles and shotguns.


And your point? 

quote:

  
I can barely even begin to address your statement that modern hunting rifles are more dangerous than military sniper rifled.  To actually make that statement accurate would involve comparing weapons from like times throughout history. 


Outside of the Marines, most sniper rifles sucked compared to your average hunting rifles, it wasn't until the Vietnam war that real attention was paid to creating sniper rifles that were even AS accurate as your average joe sixpack's huntin iron.  Even the No 4T's that were hand selected by Holland and Holland were not capable of minute of angle accuracy and the scopes sucked.  The creation of the modern sniper rifle really came about in the last 20 years and for both power and accuracy, civilian guns easily match them.   Some of the larger military special ops snipers using the .338 Lapua round were again created from standard civilian parts.  Sorry but you are SO very very wrong here.

quote:

  I highly doubt that many hunting weapons compare to the .50 caliber sniper rifles used throughout the militaries of the world today.


The .50 caliber sniper rifles the military used were INVENTED for the civilian market and in general the military ones lag behind the civilian market in accuracy. 

quote:

  To say that assault weapon ammo is too weak for deer is both inaccurate and silly.  If an AK47 could not bring down a deer, then it would not bring down a human.  Since that weapon has been the backbone of the majority of rebel fighters and all communist armies for well over 50 years, numbers don't agree with your statement. 


As others have so eloquently pointed out, you are talking about things you know nothing about.  Deer are FAR harder to kill than a human being so in some cases, my point is silly except to point out that assault weapons are LESS POWERFUL not more powerful as the silly anti gun people love to pretend.  Oh and it wasn't the backbone of all communist armies, Kalashnikov (who's hand I have shaken) didn't get that weapon into the field until the 1950s and it wasn't until the 1960s that other countries began manufacturing it and many stayed with the SKS until way late.  In addition, Czechoslovakia didn't use the AK, they used the CZ58 that kept the appearance of the AK but was functionally completely different using a falling block rather than a rotating block  as a locking system.  There were other differences but you get the point I hope.

quote:

  Even a .22 long rifle can bring down a deer with one well placed shot and it is far weaker than any "assault rifle." 


Everybody gets something right and here is your one correct statement

quote:

  You might also want to take into consideration old, surplus ammo versus new ammo manufactured for the weapons.  HUGE power difference. 


You ever actually seen any of this stuff or do you get all your information off the internet?  There is plenty of ammunition made three centuries ago that is still just as powerful as the day it left the factory.  The only problem ammo tends to have is either bad storage in which case it makes the ammo MORE hot, not less, and bad primers, a common problem with European ammo from the late 1940s and 1950s as the new non corrosive priming compounds had short shelf life. 

quote:

  It truly doesn't matter what you get shot with if the guy on the other end knows where to put the round.


Okay, 2nd right thing, nothing is more deadly than someone who can shoot.


(in reply to Irishknight)
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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 4:58:32 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
You involve yourself in every single gun thread that pops up and question why Americans feel so strongly about their 2nd Amendment rights.


Incidentally, erin... that's because I live here: I have the right to. Will you remember what this thread was about? It wasn't a 'for/against guns' kind of affair. It implied the new president was going to take away your rights. When clearly, he won't.

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