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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/20/2008 9:19:42 PM

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This is complete bullshit.

Fat people should not have any extra "rights" than anyone else. Theirs is a lifestyle choice. I'm not letting them got off the hook and avoid responsibility by claiming it's a disease. No, it's not a disease. It is a conscious decision, now take responsibility for it. Can't fit into an airline seat? That's your own fat-assed problem to deal with, not anyone else's.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/20/2008 9:48:20 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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Human nature is such a funny creature..So many times when an issue affects a person directly, they cry foul..and when it has no direct effect upon the individual personally they can be so righteously indignant of any favoratism being shown..in such situations there is no win....human nature, at times ,can be such a bitch..Tempting

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/20/2008 10:34:07 PM

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I don't have that problem, I watch what I eat and take a 2-3 mile walk everyday.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/20/2008 11:00:42 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I don't have that problem, I watch what I eat and take a 2-3 mile walk everyday.

The question, however, is, Popeye, will you have a problem when you have to pay more for your airline ticket because a High Court ruled that a private industry needs to provide 2 seats at the same price for a person who does not, perhaps, watch what they eat and take a 2-3 mile walk every day?
Or are you okay with this?

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/20/2008 11:24:44 PM

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Ah,....no.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/20/2008 11:34:12 PM

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I think I should have to pay for half a seat because I eat healthy, have a job that involves physical labor, and maintain an active lifestyle, particularly during the summer.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/20/2008 11:45:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I think I should have to pay for half a seat because I eat healthy, have a job that involves physical labor, and maintain an active lifestyle, particularly during the summer.

Now there's an idea. How about we create incentives to pursue a healthy lifestyle, instead of rewarding failure and making new excuses for obesity?

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 12:08:02 AM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Ah,....no.

"No", you will not have a problem paying more?
Or, "No", you are not okay with this?

Honest question

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They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 12:25:00 AM

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Nevermind charging for two seats, I think that some obese people need to be denied carriage all together because they pose a safety hazard. FAR 121.311 says that each person must occupy "a seat", not multiple seats. The same FAR also mandates that the aisles be kept clear. The FAA by regulation says that during the summer "a passenger" should be 200 pounds if male and 179 poinds if female - with both of these weights factoring in 16 pounds of carry on. (the amounts increase in the winter by five pounds for each gender).

Not to be mean but fat people are more than an inconvenience on an airplane they are a danger. Since people aren't weighed in at the time of boarding, the numbers above are how the pilots do the weight and balance calculations. Many large jets have strain gauges on the gear that gives a very accurate take off weight - but in 2003 a US Airways Express commumuter plane went down after take off in Charlotte. Twenty-one people died because there were too many fat people in the back, making the center of gravity too far aft causing the plane to be uncontrollable. If the center of gravity is too far aft the stall speed increases, the plane becomes less stable, and in really bad cases - as happened in Charlotte - there may not be enough elevator authority to bring the nose down...

Look in the back of an airliner and think about the fact that each man was calculated at 200/205 pounds and each woman at 179/184 including their carry on baggage. If they are beyond that, the weight and balance calculations the dispatcher and pilot did are worthless. The question beomes, is there enough obesity on this plane to make it unstable? It was in Charlotte North Carolina...

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 12:51:42 AM

ArizonaSunSwitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasFlyer

Nevermind charging for two seats, I think that some obese people need to be denied carriage all together because they pose a safety hazard. FAR 121.311 says that each person must occupy "a seat", not multiple seats. The same FAR also mandates that the aisles be kept clear. The FAA by regulation says that during the summer "a passenger" should be 200 pounds if male and 179 poinds if female - with both of these weights factoring in 16 pounds of carry on. (the amounts increase in the winter by five pounds for each gender).

Not to be mean but fat people are more than an inconvenience on an airplane they are a danger. Since people aren't weighed in at the time of boarding, the numbers above are how the pilots do the weight and balance calculations. Many large jets have strain gauges on the gear that gives a very accurate take off weight - but in 2003 a US Airways Express commumuter plane went down after take off in Charlotte. Twenty-one people died because there were too many fat people in the back, making the center of gravity too far aft causing the plane to be uncontrollable. If the center of gravity is too far aft the stall speed increases, the plane becomes less stable, and in really bad cases - as happened in Charlotte - there may not be enough elevator authority to bring the nose down...

Look in the back of an airliner and think about the fact that each man was calculated at 200/205 pounds and each woman at 179/184 including their carry on baggage. If they are beyond that, the weight and balance calculations the dispatcher and pilot did are worthless. The question beomes, is there enough obesity on this plane to make it unstable? It was in Charlotte North Carolina...

Oh give me a break. If the plane crashed from a rear CG the error is the flight crew's fault, not the paying customer. Considering the penalty for this mistake can be a spectacular death by blunt force trauma 99.9999 percent of pilots take it seriously. The plane's dispatcher should be forced to help collect body parts in this situation.

The weight sensors exist to cover the possibility of a bunch of non-evenly distributed lard asses as well as mis loaded baggage or improper fueling. It's amazing Canadian based airlines have managed to run two jets out of fuel midair in the past 3 decades with multiple fuel system and weight and balance safeguard systems in place (google "gimli glider").

People that overflow the standard seat should have to pay for two so no poor sap has to sit next to them in an uncomfortable position for 6 hours, that's the one and only reason. If they want to play games, pay for one seat and hope the plane is empty enough to accommodate everyone comfortably they should be escorted off the plane if there aren't any side by side empty seats available.

The weight numbers you cite in the FAR's are a useful average to use in aircraft with a large number of seats. That's their *only* purpose. And if you think there's an alternative to using averages i'm guessing you have never asked a woman you don't know to step on a scale for you. In my experience, the typical woman tends to be annoyed by this request.

(in reply to TexasFlyer)

RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 12:52:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

The question, however, is, Popeye, will you have a problem when you have to pay more for your airline ticket because a High Court ruled that a private industry needs to provide 2 seats at the same price for a person who does not, perhaps, watch what they eat and take a 2-3 mile walk every day?
Or are you okay with this?

No one cares if you agree with Obama's tax plan. Try a different thread.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 12:55:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasFlyer

Nevermind charging for two seats, I think that some obese people need to be denied carriage all together because they pose a safety hazard. FAR 121.311 says that each person must occupy "a seat", not multiple seats. The same FAR also mandates that the aisles be kept clear. The FAA by regulation says that during the summer "a passenger" should be 200 pounds if male and 179 poinds if female - with both of these weights factoring in 16 pounds of carry on. (the amounts increase in the winter by five pounds for each gender).

Not to be mean but fat people are more than an inconvenience on an airplane they are a danger. Since people aren't weighed in at the time of boarding, the numbers above are how the pilots do the weight and balance calculations. Many large jets have strain gauges on the gear that gives a very accurate take off weight - but in 2003 a US Airways Express commumuter plane went down after take off in Charlotte. Twenty-one people died because there were too many fat people in the back, making the center of gravity too far aft causing the plane to be uncontrollable. If the center of gravity is too far aft the stall speed increases, the plane becomes less stable, and in really bad cases - as happened in Charlotte - there may not be enough elevator authority to bring the nose down...

Look in the back of an airliner and think about the fact that each man was calculated at 200/205 pounds and each woman at 179/184 including their carry on baggage. If they are beyond that, the weight and balance calculations the dispatcher and pilot did are worthless. The question beomes, is there enough obesity on this plane to make it unstable? It was in Charlotte North Carolina...

This is interesting, but alternately couldn't having obese people spread through the cabin on an undersold flight be beneficial? Also, doesn't baggage play a part in that? I know nothing of the mechanics of planes haha, I'm just curious.

(in reply to TexasFlyer)

RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:14:40 AM

hlen5

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Texas Flyer - Could you please cite a source for your assertion? I tried finding it and found that there was a maintenance issue (turnbuckles improperly set on the cables for the elevators{elevators being flaps on the wings??}) aside from the possibility of overload.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:23:01 AM

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Good thing they havent been granted two in-flight meals too.

E

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:29:42 AM

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This is fascinating. I'm fat, for G-d's sake, but, really - how many things do you people want to legislate? I honestly feel the same about those who think fat people SHOULD pay for two seats, as I do about those who think fat people are ENTITLED to another seat - no matter which side your opinion falls on, it boils down to the same thing- let's all get together and make a decision and legislate it so it is nice and uniform and always the same. Society will be safer for all that way.

C'mon, people - this is NOT necessary. This is a free market issue - the Airlines, just like everyone else, are entitled to charge whatever they want to try to charge, in whatever configuratin they wish to design their charges. One flat fee that makes sense or surcharges for everything from your weight to the color of your coat. If they want to do that, let them.

Because flying is NOT a benifical monopoly. First off, it isn't a necesity. Yes, there are a few people who do HAVE to fly, but they aren't the majority of the customer base, so the airline is not insulated from market pressure by having a product people can't figure out how to do without. It's really not about 'does someone HAVE to use the product', but, 'Does the product have an entire trapped customer base big enough to support the industry, thus insulating it from market presure.' Second, they are FAR from being without competition.

Southwest's advertising campaign is based on offering cheaper pricing, simple pricing that makes sense, and bigger seats - and arriving on time. Virgin charges more, but their market focus is bigger seats and more all around comfort and luxery.

We don't need a LAW telling us not to let the airlines charge me for two seats. The airlines are more than welcome to charge me for two seats if it turns out to be something that the market will bear.

And to the Einstien who wants to make is illegeal for anyone to fly over the legeally mandated FAA 'average' weight - the 'average' is for the purpose of MATH, it is doing the math right that keeps us safe. If the average is wrong, change the average. That is a safety issue, so I am okay with you legislating THAT. But, srrsly, do not let obese people fly at all?

My issue with this isn't 'discrimination', and the only 'people' i'm worrying about your brilliant idea being 'unfair' to aren't even 'people', other than the country as a whole and tax payers - it's the industry your idea is 'unfair' to. Over half of the adults in this country are morbidly obese. Yea, I get it - you don't like that and you are going to do some nice, legislative arm twisting to change it. In the meantime, however, with a potentail customer base (everyone in the country, minus the people far enough down on the economic scale that they NEVER fly, minus the HUGE portion of the population that is, well, huge) of maybe 20% of the population - the airlines are either going out of buisness, or they are going to have to become taxpayer supported. (and how popular do you think taxpayer support is going to be for a 'service' that can't hold it's head up in the free market becuase it only serves 20% of the population? Although, it might be able to serve 40% of the population with taxpayer support, maybe flights will be a free service, albiet one only avialable to skinny people)

You see, people, when you decide to legislate something - let's just imagine, whatever YOUR view is on how something should oughta be, that's the view that goes through. That's what we legislate into nice, homogenous existance. Understand, you have now made this - whatever it is, airline flights in this case - an object of legislating to popular opinion. That part won't easily go away - but the HOW of that legislation is subject to very fluid public opinion. So, even though something comes under regulation with just exactly the regulations you think make for a perfect and happy little eutopia - next decade, the regulations might well be oposite of that.

How hard is this to understand? Regulation erodes freedom. The free market can and will and does handle the vast majority of these issues, just fine.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:30:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Texas Flyer - Could you please cite a source for your assertion? I tried finding it and found that there was a maintenance issue (turnbuckles improperly set on the cables for the elevators{elevators being flaps on the wings??}) aside from the possibility of overload.

The source is the NTSB report, I did a search for year 2003 accidents involving Beech 1900's... (Sorry I cannot link it but the database doesnt return usable URLs you need to search them.) The NTSB found the weights were off by over 20 pounds per passenger, the plane 600 pounds beyond maximum take off weight, and the CG was 5% aft of allowable limits. Yes, there was a rigging error on the turbuckles, but that wasnt the cause by itself the NTSB also cited the overweight passengers and suggested that airlines be required to use actual weights... (Which hasn't happened.) Also - FYI elvators arent "flaps" flaps are devices on the wing used to change the wing camber so as to lower stall speed and increase lift. Elevators are the control surfaces on the horizonta part of the tail and they control pitch - nose up and nose down.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:34:38 AM

hlen5

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Lady Ellen - I was reading another thread and saw your meal comment scroll by. I burst out laughing!!

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:42:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

Well, isn't this interesting!
We have had 12 responses and only one thinks that we should share the wealth (or share the space) since the misfortune of another human being is not anything they can help. But I also read that the airlines are making plenty of money so they can afford it. hmmmmmm....
Here is My vote...
Any airline passenger who is making more than $250,000 per year will pay an extra surcharge to the airline and then that money will be put into a pot and the obese people who need an extra seat will have one without penalizing any of the people who are making less than that. Sound fair?
I find it amazing that when it is something that potentially affects most people in the pocketbook (as in lots of people have the experience of purchasing or needing to purchase an airline ticket on occasion) it becomes so much more personal, and the thinking completely changes.

just wondering if im understanding this right?

your suggesting that people with decent jobs reguardless of their weight.. pay into a comunal fund used to subsidise the tickets of obese passangers in the future? that someone would pay extra on their ticket because of their career to cover the extra seat for someone who either doesnt want to or cant afford to pay for the seat space they need

when i fly i need a seat on the plane... i pay for said seat and i get to fly

an obese person... whether it be because of illness lack of self control , mnetal issues or whatever reason folks want to give for obesity should have to fly by the same rules dont you think?

there is a fine line between fair taxation etc and penalising the rich in a very socialist way

if you look behind you its that blurry red thing about 40 miles back

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:46:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BbwCanaDomme

This is interesting, but alternately couldn't having obese people spread through the cabin on an undersold flight be beneficial? Also, doesn't baggage play a part in that? I know nothing of the mechanics of planes haha, I'm just curious.

In theory it would be beneficial but the seats weren't designed for them. The seats on an airliner are currently designed and tested to meeting 9g;s (nine times the force of gravity) That is being raised to 16 g next year but remember that those weights are calculated using FAA "standard people" who weigh what I described earlier. For the sake of argument lets say someone is 400 pounds instead of 200. They will exert the same strain on the seats at 4.5 g that a standard weight person would experince at 9 g's. They will cause the new seats to fail at 8 g rather than 16 meaning that even under the new standards they will fail at less than whats currently required. This might sound implausible but the failure of seats is a real consideration, it is not at all uncommon for seats to tear loose and pile up in the front of the aircraft with fatal results during an otherwise survivable accident. So that obese person 10 rows back may very plausibly become a seatbelted bulldozer tearing through the cabin during severe turbulence, an impact, or rapid decelleration. Im not trying to pick on the obese but they are a danger to flight safety. Just as an aside Im 230 so I too am above the average used in the calculation but fortunately Im as far forward as ya can get so I don't contribute to an aft cg.

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RE: Obese has right to 2 airline seats- - 11/21/2008 1:47:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch
. And if you think there's an alternative to using averages i'm guessing you have never asked a woman you don't know to step on a scale for you. In my experience, the typical woman tends to be annoyed by this request.

had a sudden image of flight attendants/ ticket agents at airports demanding women step on a sclaes right after security

your average woman will accept anything short of a full cavity search as part of the post 9/11 world

try convincing her she cant fly without getting on the scales your likely to need the new emergency dental clinc the airport installed in the depatures terminal

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