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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 9:57:32 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

missturbation,

So, to paraphrase, because I lied, everyone lied... yeah, I can see that.

Or, to put it in the venacular of those smarter than me... it's a Stockholm Syndrome environment. We learn to believe what gives the most safety and comfort in persistent adversity.

The thing that always bites me in the ass is that emotions trump logic when it comes to why we do things. We "do" out of emotions, although we may try to correct afterward, because of logic... if we are emotionally motivated to do so. ;-)

I have always appreciated your posts,

MH


Yes i lied and i was convinced everyone else was too. His logic convinced my logic that it was just a social taboo. Went on all the time but was not spoken of in public circles, a bit like bdsm lol.
I didn't exactly feel safe but i did take comfort in that whilst i was being / allowing myself to be treat badly, there was worse treatment going on out there. In a way i felt lucky that i was only getting black eyes, sore ribs etc whilst some out there were having limbs broken and far worse.
I agree on the emotions / logic thing but i think sometimes they get tangled up and you can't make out one for the other.
I have to remember when i look back on my first relationship and hope that others will too that i was 15 years old, far from emotionally developed, easily led, gullible. At 35 i would hope that i could not possibly be convinced of the things i was back then.
 
quote:

ERMMMMM 'Scuse me.... One point here.. Us  Bears DO NOT have bugs.. The occasional flea perhaps but no bugs.....................................


See i was kinda thinking i'd like to be a bug on a bear. Cuddled up all snug in the bears fur, always there ready to serve.
 
Agirl, hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say. Analysing past mistakes and learning from them so we hopefully (fingers crossed) don't repeat them is fantastic. I'm pretty sure that most here who have spoken of abusive relationships would say that in hindsight they 'wished they had never got involved with the person', 'wish they had got out sooner' etc etc. It really has no baring on this discussion though other than for you to hear some of these people say 'i made a mistake.' What is important is to look at people like juliet who are now holding down successful unabusive relationships, no matter how hard that may be for them and say thats cool. To recognise that breaking patterns of abuse and being in abusive relationships is not easy. To recognise that not taking past history into your next relationship, or finding ways to cope with past history and feelings popping up in new relationships is the important thing. What we do differently if we could do again has no consequence, its waht we do in the future that counts.

I see no point in addressing icarus to be honest. He is about as flexible in his thoughts as a steel rod. 



 

_____________________________

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(in reply to MasterHypnotist)
Profile   Post #: 381
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 10:05:33 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
No juliet, I am not judging anyone at all.


You and Icarys, in a disgusting and inappropriate interjection of balls that are way too big for your place, have chosen to scrutinize and second guess the history of missturbation and julietsierra by critiquing what they did and interjecting what the "right thing" they should have done, thus implying that what they did was wrong and therefore their history is their fault.

This, by definition, is judging someone and also incredibly insensitive and nonconstructive.

Your creditability might be improved if you would own up to this glaring contradiction instead of pretending to be understanding and sympathetic.

(Okay...moderators....I didn't call anyone any bad names in this one. I was a good boy)


To be fair MadRabbit, agirl specifically said she was unsympathetic. And Icaryus DID come back and say he could understand parts of what was being said, and .dark DID come back and apologize to both me and someone else for generalizing in his comments.

Yes, Icarys then did the whole second guessing thing, but personally, I look for glimmers of understanding. It's from those that knowledge or at least awareness and quite possibly then, empathy when it happens to people close to you grows. .dark had his own reasons for choosing to stay away from adding his own story to the mix, although, when he finally did, it made the point he was TRYING to make all along - to put the past in the past and move on in more healthy ways as best you can - much more clear. Although, to tell the truth, I'm very sorry he was driven to violate his own personal ethics to do so.

For my money (and I don't have much, so there you go) agirl is the only one who claims to be "different" and wants to prove it so much that she's willing to tear down others to get there. But hey, like she said, she can't help what I have inferred from her posts. Perhaps she really WAS just trying to be helpful. Cause beyond that, I have absolutely no idea why it's so darn important that we all acknowledge how much better she is than everyone else.

juliet


I've read through every one of my posts.

I've done exactly what other's have ........given my opinion, a few personal circumstances and thoughts. 

My outlook and thoughts are my own.  It's quite incredibly what people have taken note of and what they have chosen NOT to, where my words are concerned.

I haven't made one single comment on * what people should do* and made plenty saying that I *don't know* or * don't understand*.


QUOTE...but I haven't *been* everywhere other people have , so I *can't* understand* nor can I *know* what I'd do.


QUOTE.....I'm not immune to the type of *subtle abuse* that was mentioned in the OP... of course it's upsetting and as I said before.........a chap thumping the table isn't my idea of a fun friday evening.

QUOTE.......I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the type of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact.

QUOTE.... Whatever *rulebook* I've used to live my life is only applicable to me...just as I haven't a FULL understanding of people that succumb to insidious types of abuse....I'm sure that it may be just as inexplicable why I haven't or why other people haven't.


I made it quite clear that my comments are not made out of some perception of *strength*,or  being *better than*...........but perhaps *different than* yes. That part I can't help.

agirl




(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 382
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 10:17:52 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

I've read through every one of my posts.

I've done exactly what other's have ........given my opinion, a few personal circumstances and thoughts.

My outlook and thoughts are my own. It's quite incredibly what people have taken note of and what they have chosen NOT to, where my words are concerned.

I haven't made one single comment on * what people should do* and made plenty saying that I *don't know* or * don't understand*.


QUOTE...but I haven't *been* everywhere other people have , so I *can't* understand* nor can I *know* what I'd do.


QUOTE.....I'm not immune to the type of *subtle abuse* that was mentioned in the OP... of course it's upsetting and as I said before.........a chap thumping the table isn't my idea of a fun friday evening.

QUOTE.......I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the type of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact.

QUOTE.... Whatever *rulebook* I've used to live my life is only applicable to me...just as I haven't a FULL understanding of people that succumb to insidious types of abuse....I'm sure that it may be just as inexplicable why I haven't or why other people haven't.


I made it quite clear that my comments are not made out of some perception of *strength*,or being *better than*...........but perhaps *different than* yes. That part I can't help.

agirl


They're doing what most other people do and focusing on the perceived negative of what you said instead of looking at the whole picture.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 12/29/2008 10:49:07 AM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 383
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 10:29:53 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

dark had his own reasons for choosing to stay away from adding his own story to the mix, although, when he finally did, it made the point he was TRYING to make all along

What I'm seeing is because she told everyone some deeply painful stuff that now her point somehow became valid or clear in some way. Why do people think that you have to feel the same thing in order to understand. I haven't been through the exact same pain as you but I have had abuse in my life.. I just choose not to dwell on it in any way. I don't want to use it as a crutch or have anyone feel sympathy for me because of it. I don't look at myself as a victim..It's just the way my life has panned out.

I've dealt with it and moved on. I've also always been an independent person even as a child and when I came up against something troubling..I made my way through it on my own..Not that I didn't have help along the way..I mean internally.

So I guess to a degree it is hard for me to understand how someone could stay in a bad situation for an extended amount of time but in order to grasp it, all I have to do is look back at some of the females I've known throughout my life. It's not hard to put yourself in another's shoes.


The reason I called bullshit on "subtle abuse" was because of what Ironbear and dark said. We all do it to one another so you can't call foul to something your doing to another or you know damn well your gonna do. Sure, use it as a guide to continuing behavior if it escalates but come on, get over it already.(that last part wasn't directed towards you but everyone in general)


< Message edited by Icarys -- 12/29/2008 10:40:17 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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Profile   Post #: 384
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 10:30:33 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Against my own better judgment I'm going to try to reconstruct some of my thought from this morning....

I grew up in a rather idyllic setting. My childhood was picture perfect. My parents were loving but firm and brought me up instilling in me a strong moral code. I was taught from a young age that abusive behavior was wrong and should not be tolerated. I can't even begin to count all the times my Father spoke about men hitting women...and how despicable such an act was. I was taught to stand firm on my beliefs and to never let anyone put me down...and I was taught the skills to back that up.

I met my first Master at the tender age of 15. We had a three year relationship, one that was free of drama and fighting. While S&M came into my world, I never had any problem differentiating what he did to me in play or in sex from the proper way to interact in the rest of our relationship....with respect for one another. We parted ways, not because we didn't get along, but because he knew that he was not what I needed in the long term.

Soon after we split I met my husband. We were married 11 years. I can not remember one single conversation in that marriage that one could view as an argument. It had nothing to do with how "docile" I am, for anyone who knows me knows that the last word anyone would use to describe me would be "docile". We didn't fight and argue because we respected each other. There were no slamming doors, no plates being thrown, no drama or histrionics. We divorced very peacefully, using the same attorney and telling the Friend of the Court that they were not a part of our marriage therefore they would also not be a part of our divorce. We continued to raise our children as a cohesive unit and have two fine, well balanced adult males to show for it.

I was a counselor. I worked substance abuse and domestic violence...and all of my clients were women. I heard their stories, felt them....took them home with me and cried over them. I learned so much from those women. About fear, about courage, about grace. About the will to survive and what a person can truly endure.

A few months after our divorce I met my ex Master. He was a recovering alcoholic and I knew full well the possibilities. He had a good bit of sobriety under his belt and his head was definitely in the right place. But we all know that alcoholism isn't a disease one is ever recovered from. The risk was there...albeit it seemed small at the time...but there nonetheless.

The beginnings of our relationship were cautious. I was his submissive and he was a remarkable dominant. Over time we fell deeply in love...the kind of love that if one only gets one shot at it I thought surely that was it. About 3 years into it we realized that I had definitely made the transition from submissive to slave. He had more than earned every ounce of my trust. Again, there were no arguments, no slamming doors, no plates flying. We had 8 beautiful and wonderful years. We loved each other and laughed with each other and supported each other through all of life's turns.

When he began drinking again I must confess I didn't even realize what was happening. I know that sounds silly coming from someone with a background in substance abuse but it's true. Him drinking again was just absolutely the last thing I'd considered. To be very honest, I feared he was sick. Maybe diabetic or something. He smelled fruity sometimes. He had to pee a lot. He was sleeping a lot more and seemed moody and confused. I begged him to make an appointment to see the doctor.

Then I realized what was happening and it all started clicking. Now keep in mind that this man is the man that I loved with every breath I took. I adored him. When I realized he was drinking again the emotion that set in was panic. OMG he was sick and I had to help him. I went into overdrive, calling counselors and treatment centers. But it didn't help. He was on a downward spiral. Every day started to get a little bit tougher. Slowly. When he would do things that were abusive, of course there was this reaction in me that I should leave. But having the knowledge of alcoholism that I did I understood that the man before me wasn't a bad man....he was a sick man....and my leaving was not going to make him better. Would I leave him if he had cancer? This was very much like cancer, although it attacked his personality and not his body. So I began to look at each instance and hold it up against the entirety of the relationship. Was this so bad that I should throw away all these years? Then it became that I would hold up each instance and compare it to the others. Ok, I stayed through all of this...is this any worse? I kept hoping and praying that he would find his footing once again. That we were going to be able to "get back" all we once had. If I left, surely there was no chance of that. I felt like if anyone in the world could help this man...who better would there be than I who knew him like no other ever had. I who knew him even better than he knew himself at times. But it continued to get worse until it got to the point where I could no longer think rationally. I was hanging on by my fingernails, walking on egg shells and waiting for the earth to open up beneath my feet. I loved him so much that I had to do everything that was within my power....had to make sure I had given it my all.

The funny thing though, is that during it...I don't know that I really "felt" abused. I was in pain yes, but my pain seemed so small in comparison to his. He was twisted and contorted with his pain. His self hate. He knew full well what he had become and it ate at him...but he couldn't make himself stop. So what he was doing to me didn't really seem to compare to the torture he was inflicting upon himself. Until suddenly the day came when it became clear to me that I was not going to win that battle...and I was fairly certain he was going to lose it too, although I prayed he would find a way. But I knew that he would have to find that way without me. He never did and finally a few months ago came the day when he could no longer look at his face in that mirror any more. He went downstairs in his home, all 5ft 10 of him....and hung himself to death in a 5 foot basement.

Now the reason that I wanted to share this is because so many have expressed that they didn't know anything different. That they had come from a lifetime of abuse and had nothing to compare it to and knew no other way. Sometimes, people take comfort in that aspect because it makes them believe that they are likely immune because their reality has been different. I am living proof that it's simply not true. None of us are immune. Black, white, brown, big, small. Educated, uneducated. Those of us from fairytale backgrounds and those of us whose entire lives have been hell. Abuse is not prejudiced. Every one of us could find ourselves in an abusive situation. And when we do....we do the best we can with what we have to work with. We all have very different reasons why we stay when we do. While those reasons may seem invalid to some...or even to ourselves once we get clear of the wreckage......they are very valid to the person in the middle of it at the time.  




< Message edited by mistoferin -- 12/29/2008 10:37:38 AM >

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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Profile   Post #: 385
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 10:47:25 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

I was INTENTIONALLY abusive to someone on this thread. He came in baiting and dishing and I took the bait and dished it right back. Nope, doesn't make it right....or even good....but I wanted him to know that I, for one, was not going to just let it slide.

I love it when people see intent where there was none.

I didn't learn that particular thing from you..What I did learn is that your one of the abused that has become an abuser all the while going on  about how bad it is. That's also hypocritical.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 386
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 10:52:22 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		My husband ended his life the same way.

I think the reasons that people stay are indeed VERY valid because once they become invalid people tend to move on.

agirl





(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 387
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 11:21:06 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Well, unless Icaryus' still on hold comments warrant anything different, I'm done with this thread. lol... I should have been done with it before it began.

In the end, people will treat others the way they think they should and those folks will either accept it or not. I've shared my experiences and if you can draw something from them that will help you, you're more than welcome to the information. If you can't and simply want to use what I've said to further your own cause, then more power to you. Mistoferin, thanks for sharing that last piece. .dark, thanks for sharing something that was so very hard for you to share. agirl, thanks for reminding me how quickly I can fall right back into the same behavior patterns without even realizing what someone's doing. I'm also grateful I was able to see things more quickly thank I have in the past. That bodes well for me I think. I have you to thank for that. Missturbation, 15 is such a very young age. Doesn't it just make our mother's rules against dating so young make sense now that we're older? And Icarys, thanks for the one acknowledgement that you can see how some of this comes about. I know that admission doesn't come easily. Above all, you are definitely consistent and that's not an entirely bad thing either.

To those of you who've never experienced what we have, I think that's just absolutely wonderful. I hope you never ever become a member in this giant club I belong to. Membership kinda messes with your heads, y'know?

I hope ALL of you have a wonderful new year and that if you haven't been, that this year will see you safe. And if you've never had to feel unsafe, please don't make this the year to experience that. I wish you all love and laughter and light as we end 2008 and step into 2009.

We're going to need it.

I'm out.

juliet

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 11:33:28 AM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		agirl:

I can see form your post and adding your quotes and I will try to address them from my own POV and maybe, just maybe it'll cshed a light to your not understanding.

quote:


...but I haven't *been* everywhere other people have , so I *can't* understand* nor can I *know* what I'd do.


When the many posters and myself related a glimpse of what we went through, that is a way for us to help you understand the types of thinking and what we felt we had to do to survive  and then how we healed and moved forward in a way we believed was best for us. Each of us done this in our own unique way using techniques unique to the individual.


quote:


.......I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the type of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact.


I can not speak for mistoferin and I am speaking solely from my background and what I believe is to be accurate. When abuse happens at an early age, it strikes deep into a person's psyche, which was my situation. As a child, I held the illusion/belief that always being told "that's not good enough" or " "why can't I be better behaved" on a daily basis and then add to that having a severe stutter and every adult including parents correcting my speech and all my friends making fun of that resulted in me slowly believing I was imperfect/defective and useless. Picture this all through grade school then into high school. Now that is termed psychological abuse. I am now 48 yrs old and all that happened from 1965 -1978 approx.  Then from 1973-1975 I had a ,ale relative who got his jollies by fondling me, so when you add that into the mix  growing up for me was a living hell.
  Now, a child internalizes more then what adults believe and that is what I had done, I internalized all this and had self deluded myself into believing that no one will beleive me so why say anything. I felt I had no choice but to endure until I was legally old enough to leave home. My social skills were flawed, my self identity and self image was flawed and had no self confidence my abilities thus physically, spiritually and emotionally I was a defective human being.
   My mind was so accustomed to the childhood experiences that all it knew was how to exist in survivval mode. I made choices based upon what I believed was best for me according to what I felt was right. Many were poor choices solely because I didn't know any better. Fear for personal safety had me making choices which the average person wouldn't and shouldn't have to make, mine were made because I felt they were right for me and me only. And I said this earlier in this thread and I will say this again and it holds true for me. "I am now able to look in the mirror and like who I see."

I don't expose myself like this to gain sympathy because I do not need sympathy. My past was my trial by fire and it had only made me stronger as a person and that is all which matters to me.


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(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 389
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 11:34:47 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

In another thread, the discussion drifted toward the discussion of what is and is not abusive.  I am quite familiar with this subject for a variety of reasons, both personal and professional.

My personal reasons is that in the past, while I never physically hurt any of my partners I did use my anger to control them.  I didn't often break things but I did at time as well as the classic pounding fists onto and into things.  At my size, when I rage, it is a sight to behold and one my lovers who are tiny in comparison to learned not to ask certain questions...thus controlling them with fear.  I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.  You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.

I glanced around for a decent link to the DSM IV but couldn't find one but I am sure someone can post it.


This is Darcy

I've only just perused this thread after an interesting flag appeared in our in box, but it is a very interesting subject.

Personally, though I understand and have the capacity to feel rage and malice, I have never had to use such negative emotions in the attempts to control or try and impact the lives of anyone around me. I find that by simply exuding my natural dominance and using my charisma (something that not everyone possesses, but many wish they did) that I can engender respect and loyalty in those around me. Sure there are those who will find this arrogant, and perhaps even sickening, but hey, ce la vie, I have enough friends already and won't lose any sleep over it.
In a nutshell, if you like who I am, great! If you don't, well that's great too!

There is a fine line between feeling rage, and having the self-control to keep it in check, and I'm fortunate in that I rarely have to 'blow my top', but when I do (and it's usually at arrogant assholes, but I could care less about them) it's usually very brief and my life quickly moves on - it's too short to worry about those who aspire to the heights of greatness that I have achieved in my life (sarcasm? or arrogance? you decide  )

In short, control by respect rocks, control by fear is, at best, a hollow victory.

Darcy 

_____________________________
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Profile   Post #: 390
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 11:35:13 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline 		well said, Bear

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Profile   Post #: 391
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 11:49:38 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

Well, unless Icaryus' still on hold comments warrant anything different, I'm done with this thread. lol... I should have been done with it before it began.

In the end, people will treat others the way they think they should and those folks will either accept it or not. I've shared my experiences and if you can draw something from them that will help you, you're more than welcome to the information. If you can't and simply want to use what I've said to further your own cause, then more power to you. Mistoferin, thanks for sharing that last piece. .dark, thanks for sharing something that was so very hard for you to share. agirl, thanks for reminding me how quickly I can fall right back into the same behavior patterns without even realizing what someone's doing. I'm also grateful I was able to see things more quickly thank I have in the past. That bodes well for me I think. I have you to thank for that. Missturbation, 15 is such a very young age. Doesn't it just make our mother's rules against dating so young make sense now that we're older? And Icarys, thanks for the one acknowledgement that you can see how some of this comes about. I know that admission doesn't come easily. Above all, you are definitely consistent and that's not an entirely bad thing either.

To those of you who've never experienced what we have, I think that's just absolutely wonderful. I hope you never ever become a member in this giant club I belong to. Membership kinda messes with your heads, y'know?

I hope ALL of you have a wonderful new year and that if you haven't been, that this year will see you safe. And if you've never had to feel unsafe, please don't make this the year to experience that. I wish you all love and laughter and light as we end 2008 and step into 2009.

We're going to need it.

I'm out.

juliet


You're welcome to your perception of what you *think* I'm doing.

agirl



(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 392
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 12:20:09 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

agirl:

I can see form your post and adding your quotes and I will try to address them from my own POV and maybe, just maybe it'll cshed a light to your not understanding.

quote:


...but I haven't *been* everywhere other people have , so I *can't* understand* nor can I *know* what I'd do.


When the many posters and myself related a glimpse of what we went through, that is a way for us to help you understand the types of thinking and what we felt we had to do to survive  and then how we healed and moved forward in a way we believed was best for us. Each of us done this in our own unique way using techniques unique to the individual.


quote:


.......I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the type of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact.


I can not speak for mistoferin and I am speaking solely from my background and what I believe is to be accurate. When abuse happens at an early age, it strikes deep into a person's psyche, which was my situation. As a child, I held the illusion/belief that always being told "that's not good enough" or " "why can't I be better behaved" on a daily basis and then add to that having a severe stutter and every adult including parents correcting my speech and all my friends making fun of that resulted in me slowly believing I was imperfect/defective and useless. Picture this all through grade school then into high school. Now that is termed psychological abuse. I am now 48 yrs old and all that happened from 1965 -1978 approx.  Then from 1973-1975 I had a ,ale relative who got his jollies by fondling me, so when you add that into the mix  growing up for me was a living hell.
Now, a child internalizes more then what adults believe and that is what I had done, I internalized all this and had self deluded myself into believing that no one will beleive me so why say anything. I felt I had no choice but to endure until I was legally old enough to leave home. My social skills were flawed, my self identity and self image was flawed and had no self confidence my abilities thus physically, spiritually and emotionally I was a defective human being.
  My mind was so accustomed to the childhood experiences that all it knew was how to exist in survivval mode. I made choices based upon what I believed was best for me according to what I felt was right. Many were poor choices solely because I didn't know any better. Fear for personal safety had me making choices which the average person wouldn't and shouldn't have to make, mine were made because I felt they were right for me and me only. And I said this earlier in this thread and I will say this again and it holds true for me. "I am now able to look in the mirror and like who I see."

I don't expose myself like this to gain sympathy because I do not need sympathy. My past was my trial by fire and it had only made me stronger as a person and that is all which matters to me.



Bear....I didn't think for one moment that you were trying to elicit sympathy and strange as it may seem, I enjoyed reading your post.

One thing I'd like to clarify is that I will unlikely to ever fully understand abuse of this nature, for a few reasons.....one is, that I haven't *been there*...I can accept and understand that it's the case but I'm only ever going to be able to view it from the place that I'm standing.

Any right minded person can appreciate that this would be vile to have gone through but I'd be a total liar if I said I could understand how it felt for you.

I made the point that *I* haven't felt abused....even if someone else were to know my background and say * that's abuse!*...it wouldn't alter the fact that I didn't ever FEEL taken apart in the way that other's have.

I'm glad that you like who you see in the mirror, these days.

Regards, agirl






(in reply to beargonewild)
Profile   Post #: 393
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 3:00:18 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

. Very strange that I have yet to heard anyone suffering abuse when someone was not under the influence of something.
With the economy suffering, the bars and liquor distributors will be doing a lot more business, if they're not already.





my ex. was seldom the worse for wear. His abuse was done sober.

(in reply to Aszhrae)
Profile   Post #: 394
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 3:05:15 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		Its the general excuse for their actions that they were drunk at the time.

A sober abuser is probably the worst.

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 395
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 3:35:57 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Its the general excuse for their actions that they were drunk at the time.

A sober abuser is probably the worst.



Well, my ex. would have been horrified if i had pointed out that he was abusive - he was being- a. helpful, b. caring, c. a good husband - by pointing out my bad points, activities and deficiencies. Repeatedly, in less than pleasant terms.
He still thinks he was a stella husband and father, and the kids problems had nothing to do with him - even though one of them refused to see him for more than 3 years - after during a fight, he offered to divorce her - as in no contact - this with a 13 year old. Of course when she took him up on the offer  - he was shocked!

He was REALLY good at rewriting his personal history.

(in reply to Aszhrae)
Profile   Post #: 396
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 4:18:25 PM   
whiteslavebitch


Posts: 479
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Absolutely, at least in my case.  The difference for me and others I know is that while we saw there was a way of living that didn't include put downs, fear, and bullying, and while we even wanted it for ourselves, we didn't think it was attainable.  It was a self image thing.  I'm not worthy of being treated that well.   I need to be "better" so that I am worthy of it.  That's the kind of life other people have...not me.  And my upbringing, and my life partner have confirmed that.  So...ok, I'll stick with what I know - what I know how to deal with.  Because after awhile I sure didn't know how to deal with someone being nice to me.  I figured they just didn't know me well enough yet to realize I didn't deserve that.

It's really twisted! It's what I once referred to as "the comfortable cycle of dysfunction."  I wanted out, but (a) I didn't know how to get out (the world on the "outside" was terrifying), and (b) I didn't think I deserved "out."  For me it was really intense counseling (an inner survival instinct never let me give up trying) which opened my eyes to the truth.


This reminds me so much of how I felt in my marriage. Plus with 4 UMs to support, I didn't feel capable (brainwashing) of doing this on my own. Even though I did have an education, and steady employment. I never thought I would be able to manage without his support, so much so that I didn't leave until my youngest was almost 16. I had to leave her with her father, because he had her believing that the failure of the marriage was all my fault.

She would barely speak to me for almost a year, until she was the one on the receiving end of his "subtle" abuse. I regret having to leave her in that situation, but she would not come live with me no matter what. Thankfully, our relationship has normalized in the past 2 years.




_____________________________

MasterK's whiteslavebitch

formally collared 1/30/09

"I give to you my everything, you've given me these loving wings." - DMB

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 397
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 6:18:00 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
:: snipped post for brevity ::

That is all I can say on the subject to NV and erin because I know myself and right now I am angry at this situation and I know you both well enough to get that if I continued this would just end up as tit for tat - and quite honestly, I want to be a bigger person than that.  For the record - I DO find this thread heartbreaking - just maybe not for the reasons some of you are second guessing of me.  I'm not sorry.  I'm not sad at others reactions and I am disappointed, but only in myself for being part of this whole charade of 'subtle abuse'.

the.dark.


I want to try clear some things up here.  I know sometimes my passion for certain subjects has me coming across as a bull in a china shop.  It's a personality trait that I don't like about myself and that I am actively working on.  I have made a lot of effort to not come across that way here, but obviously I have failed greatly.   

.dark., if my words made you feel abused here, I apologize.  That was not my intention.  In fact, I had edited my post to specifically write your name in, because without doing so my post seemed to be passive-aggressively taking digs and that seemed subtly abusive to me.  So I wanted to be open and direct, instead, as it just seemed more honest that way. I don't do well with evasiveness and vagueness.  It obviously did not have a good affect, but I wanted you to know why I did that.  One of the things I struggle with is in disappointing those I care about and/or respect.  When I do, I often go into one of two modes - either I beat myself up awfully good and convince myself that my ex husband was right and I really am this horrible person who doesn't deserve good things, or I become really defensive and angry, because if I don't I start thinking I'm this big bad awful person again.  It's a residual affect from my own story of abuse, and one I continue to work on.  I'm only three years out of that situation, and while I have come a long way, I still have a road ahead of me to tackle.  I say this because I absolutely hate causing other people strife, and when I do I assure you it is purely by accident or by not being mindful or by failing at an otherwise well intended attempt at trying to communicate.

  That said, I want to clarify.  My only purpose in bringing your name in is because your words about people on this thread having a victim mentality, and in insisting (or seeming to from my perspective) that sharing our stories wouldn't help others find a way out, made me sad. You say you did not say one person had a victim mentality here, but in one of your first posts on this thread, you said victim mentality was right here in this thread.  I'm not seeing what you are seeing in this thread, and your posts were vague and that seemed passive aggressive to me.  I understand that may not have been your intention, just as it was not my intention to be abusive to you.  But that's how I received it. I would have much better handled you saying Hey NV, when you said such n such it seemed really abusive to me, than the vague remarks about "some" people being abusive here.."some" people having a victim mentality here..."some" people...  It's my own quirk.  I find remarks like that to be subtle digs and I can never bring myself to react well to them.  But I'm working on that.

  My point about not understanding what an abused person goes through was not directed toward your words but toward agirl's as she has repeated here that she does not understand.  There was no assumption on my part, particularly about whether or not you have suffered. It was clearly stated by agirl, and, I believe, a few others, that she could not understand how someone could be in such a situation. That this made me sad was not an attempt to make anyone feel badly; it was simply how I felt. You said how you feel, others have said how they feel.  I regret that you felt the need to cross your own boundary about sharing your story.  I've cross my boundaries on these boards before, and it never felt good.  I was not trying to prompt you to do so.  I have experienced some of the things you shared, and I understand such things cause much pain.  Believe it or not, there is a lot I have not shared about my past.  But I believe whether one shares or doesn't share is not indicative of a victim mentality.  I do not know if you feel differently.  

I, too, am disappointed.  I am disappointed that you believe me to be condescending.  That was never my objective, in fact I abhor that trait in people and it has given me pause to think I have displayed that here.  It makes me understand just how right Bita was, in saying any one of us is capable of being abusive without even realizing it.  My only real "agenda" (for lack of a better word here) was to try to present the idea that none of us can decide what is or is not abusive for another individual.  None of us can decide what should or should not cause someone else to feel safe or unsafe.  Several people professed to not understand that, or to say that they indeed could decide for other people.  I tried to address that.  Perhaps I did not do so well.  I do not begin to believe I am the spokesperson for the issue of abuse.  But it is a subject that has compelled me, for reasons I do not even understand myself, to be very active in this thread.   

In any case, I will continue to think about how I say things, so as not to be offensive. Since more than one person in this thread has said that I have been, it's something I will be looking at. 


This is not an attempt at, as you said "tit for tat."  Just an explanation as to where I'm coming from, for whatever it is worth. 


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 6:20:43 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		For some, you can not tell them what is wrong until they have experienced it for themselves first hand. You try to save them from the experience but you just have to let them be.
I always enjoy it when someone comes along, that has never experienced any form of abuse in their lives but they are an authority on the subject of abuse, because they have studied it in college or university. Much the same as child psychologists that tell someone how to raise their child, when they themselves have never raised a child.

(in reply to whiteslavebitch)
Profile   Post #: 399
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 6:50:55 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Could it be that we all have been abused in some way, shape or form, and that some choose to recognise the abuse for what it was , and others do not, perspectives I suppose. Some have been abused subtly, others have been abused not so subtly, but the abuse felt at the time was for each of us a harrowing time.

Given that we, or most of us have felt it, can we just recognise it for what it was, and try to move on, yeah fine, the memories, I know, but I am trying to put the past behind me and move forward into the future, the future is what matters to us more now, so perhaps moving forward is the best option for all of us.

Perhaps words worth remembering, treat others how you would be happy to be treated yourselves, on a reality basis.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Aszhrae)
Profile   Post #: 400
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