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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 7:13:40 PM

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I agree that there are many forms of abuse-mental,verbal,physical and NONE are acceptable in any form.If you even think you are being abused run..do not walk...out the nearest door.

< Message edited by BondageBarbieX -- 12/29/2008 7:14:06 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/29/2008 8:20:07 PM

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For me, it's not such a blurry boundary. I consider abuse to be about the effect it has on the person abused. Slavery/subbishness/what have you should raise you up, make you happy, make you secure and confident and able- at the very least it should be fun. Abuse, even subtly, will slowly accumulate the opposite effect. It can be hard to see when it's going on but hindsight being 20/20 it's easy enough to say 'oh NOW I know what that looks like'.

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 5:50:32 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

My point about not understanding what an abused person goes through was not directed toward your words but toward agirl's as she has repeated here that she does not understand. There was no assumption on my part, particularly about whether or not you have suffered. It was clearly stated by agirl, and, I believe, a few others, that she could not understand how someone could be in such a situation. That this made me sad was not an attempt to make anyone feel badly; it was simply how I felt.

No, actually I said .....

. I don't know, and I CAN'T know what happens between having bliss and being taken apart piece by piece in THAT way......because there is something, and I cannot say WHAT that something is, that doesn't go beyond a certain point, no matter how subtle.

and....

I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the TYPE of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact.

and...

I'm a VERY selfish person.....I can put up with an awful lot IF it's within the realms of not making me TOO hideously trauma-bound.
I haven't *easily walked away from* any relationship that mattered..My point of *that's far enough* isn't the same as anyone elses....and why SHOULD it be?

and...

I'm not immune to the type of *subtle abuse* that was mentioned in the OP... of course it's upsetting and as I said before.........a chap thumping the table isn't my idea of a fun friday evening.

How much of that we each take on board and internalise is going to differ hugely.

Yes, I think she very much IS judging those of us who didn't do as she'd do. I also think she's getting off on watching us attempt to explain the inexplicable. Crazy-making behavior creates crazy-making mindsets, and when you live with someone who engages in crazy-making behavior, you tend to react in less than rational ways as well.

I think the best any of us who have stayed in situations like this can do is attempt to explain where we were at that time. Chances are we'd do things vastly differently now, but at the time, we did what we thought was right - dysfunctionally since we were immersed in a very dysfunctional situation. But pointing out how SHE would have done things differently does not change the fact that we did things to the best of our abilities at the time given the circumstances we were in. Pointing out how SHE would have done things in those situations, having never been in those situations is akin to the judgmental views of the childless on how THEY would have done things differently if it'd have been THEIR child.

I haven't said what I'd do, I've said what I've done.

You and Icarys, in a disgusting and inappropriate interjection of balls that are way too big for your place, have chosen to scrutinize and second guess the history of missturbation and julietsierra by critiquing what they did and interjecting what the "right thing" they should have done, thus implying that what they did was wrong and therefore their history is their fault.

This, by definition, is judging someone and also incredibly insensitive and nonconstructive.

Your creditability might be improved if you would own up to this glaring contradiction instead of pretending to be understanding and sympathetic.

I haven't at any time claimed to be understanding and sympathetic, nor have I said at all anywhere what anyone *should do*......

I actually said ...

Whatever *rulebook* I've used to live my life is only applicable to me...just as I haven't a FULL understanding of people that succumb to insidious types of abuse....I'm sure that it may be just as inexplicable why I haven't or why other people haven't.

agirl specifically said she was unsympathetic.

No, I actually said...

I'm not a sympathetic ear and neither are you, to me. I haven't said ONE word that is intended to be of *help* to anyone, so let's be clear about that. I haven't held you up to *be* anything; I don't care that much. This is a bdsm forum....it's not a life-affirming forum.

agirl is the only one who claims to be "different" and wants to prove it so much that she's willing to tear down others to get there. But hey, like she said, she can't help what I have inferred from her posts. Perhaps she really WAS just trying to be helpful. Cause beyond that, I have absolutely no idea why it's so darn important that we all acknowledge how much better she is than everyone else.

And finally...throughout the thread I've been accused of saying things that I haven't said, of baiting people, of tearing people down, that I consider myself *better than* others despite having said clearly more than once that I do NOT, watched a lot of selective inference taken from my words and seen other words ignored because they didn't fit in with the perception people had already formed and more than one personal attack.

I'm not emotionally attached to the thread or the subject and I haven't been critical of the people that are.

agirl

< Message edited by agirl -- 12/30/2008 5:53:17 AM >

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 6:21:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

My point about not understanding what an abused person goes through was not directed toward your words but toward agirl's as she has repeated here that she does not understand. There was no assumption on my part, particularly about whether or not you have suffered. It was clearly stated by agirl, and, I believe, a few others, that she could not understand how someone could be in such a situation. That this made me sad was not an attempt to make anyone feel badly; it was simply how I felt.

No, actually I said .....

. I don't know, and I CAN'T know what happens between having bliss and being taken apart piece by piece in THAT way......because there is something, and I cannot say WHAT that something is, that doesn't go beyond a certain point, no matter how subtle.

and....

I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the TYPE of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact.

and...

I'm a VERY selfish person.....I can put up with an awful lot IF it's within the realms of not making me TOO hideously trauma-bound.
I haven't *easily walked away from* any relationship that mattered..My point of *that's far enough* isn't the same as anyone elses....and why SHOULD it be?

and...

I'm not immune to the type of *subtle abuse* that was mentioned in the OP... of course it's upsetting and as I said before.........a chap thumping the table isn't my idea of a fun friday evening.

How much of that we each take on board and internalise is going to differ hugely.

I may be reading your response to me wrong. In response to my saying you said you didn't understand...you are saying "No, I actually said..." Meaning you DIDN'T say you don't understand? (Ok that one twisted my brain up). So as to be very careful I didn't misrepresent or put words in your mouth, I reread your posts before I wrote that. And I read:

No, I can't or don't fully understand how a man , one man, could have the ability to isolate me from my family.

I haven't made one single comment on * what people should do* and made plenty saying that I *don't know* or * don't understand*.

QUOTE...but I haven't *been* everywhere other people have , so I *can't* understand* nor can I *know* what I'd do.

QUOTE.......I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the type of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact.

QUOTE.... Whatever *rulebook* I've used to live my life is only applicable to me...just as I haven't a FULL understanding of people that succumb to insidious types of abuse....I'm sure that it may be just as inexplicable why I haven't or why other people haven't.

quote:

And finally...throughout the thread I've been accused of saying things that I haven't said, of baiting people, of tearing people down, that I consider myself *better than* others despite having said clearly more than once that I do NOT, watched a lot of selective inference taken from my words and seen other words ignored because they didn't fit in with the perception people had already formed and more than one personal attack.

I don't believe I have accused you of saying anything you haven't. I am not trying to perpetuate argument here. I am letting you know why I concluded that there were aspects to abuse that you don't understand. I truly do not know why you seem to be arguing that.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to agirl)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 7:36:35 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I don't believe I have accused you of saying anything you haven't. I am not trying to perpetuate argument here. I am letting you know why I concluded that there were aspects to abuse that you don't understand. I truly do not know why you seem to be arguing that.

I don't think you're perpetuating argument at all.

I was referring to the point below the one you highlighted actually.....*clearly stated that she could not understand how someone could be in such a situation* and although the post had *in reply to*...it wasn't directed at you. It was a general post, which isn't clear without the *FR* being added.

I DO understand how someone could be in a situation where they are subject to abuse, and that's what sparked my post..

The part I'd like to be clear about is the *such a situation*.........you didn't specify *what situation*......and it's plain that people interpret broad comments in their own way and toward me in this thread, it's not been positive.

It's not your fault at all that people have *decided* what I mean when I write something and I don't think you have been negative in any specific way........and I also don't percieve what you wrote as a slight of any kind.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 8:23:07 AM

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wow, so much carnage....

I will address My response to the original OP:

Michael: I have come and gone from here many times before I posted to grasp what you were saying---and as you often do, I get befuddled, confused and feel inadequate to respond--but that's a good thing because you make Me--no I WANT to dig deep to find My real feelings on many topics you discuss--for that--My deepest thanks.

Now: Here is your link to DSM IV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

quote:

I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.

I think this is the number one mistake most new Dominants make: " hey I can just order the "XXX" ( insert your pronoun, expletive of choice) and I get whatever I want--believeing that slapping a label on One's self changes the dynamics of a good relationship. I have always said, there is a chasm between domineering and dominant--those that are domineering IMHO do not good Dominants make.

You use the term humble--that is stellar--for I believe we are far too arrogant, especially in the US, we condemn, we berate, we attack, we look down upon--this can transcend into a D/s relationship as well--not the place I choose to be--but that is My design. Humility allows us to admit mistakes, face inadequacies with grace and reach out for help when needed-its also not a trait I have found in the domineering. I understand evolving, the more I evolved into a who I really am and felt the need to prove Myself grow less and less, the better Dominant--hell the better parent I became.

I personally get evolving.

Now--abuse-whoa, using that word is like grabbing someone under the upper arm with two very long fingernails-EVERYONE has a reaction--and yet, your point was, you felt it was, you felt as you grew that you were not giving your partner the best that you as a Dominant wanted to give--evolving causes one to painfully open one's eyes to their inner self. And I think your point was---do you use subtle abuse or forms as a Dominant--feel free to tell Me I am wrong here..

I think as humans we ALL use some form of what can be perceived as abuse--(perception after all is that person's reality)--a sharp word to a child who has interrupted, cutting off people in traffic, using your spouses handicap parking pass when you are perfectly mobile and extending in to the more overt and aggressive forms of abuse--and that doesn't even address WIITWD. And we as humans all have times when we have poor coping skills: road rage is a prime eample of our childish brutish behavior. I won't get into debating the definition of abuse--its as elusive as the definition of love--and its pretty damn subjective.

I think your point though is the use of subtle abuses to Dominate--right or wrong? And I just don't think this has a pat answer--there are many variations on a theme-one person's pain is another's pleasure--one's hope is another's despair. It just isn't black and white.

However, if just one person takes pause to check how they behave in their relationships and use it as a moment to evolve--your post will not be wasted. IMHO

_____________________________

I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 8:32:29 AM

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I'm not the word smith others are. You've said what I think in a much more eloquent way than I probably ever could lol.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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(in reply to CatdeMedici)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 8:34:25 AM

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quote:

I see no point in addressing icarus to be honest. He is about as flexible in his thoughts as a steel rod.

I'm completely content with that on multiple levels.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 9:44:06 AM

MasterHypnotist

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OK, so we've gone around and around on why people do or don't allow abuse, if they wander into it "innocently" and don't know any better.

How do you view profiles (or emails) that request abuse? Profiles that pang for, or promise "lovely bruises," "the aches that make me/you alive," or proclamations of being "worthless," or desiring to become "worthless?" Journals that brag that they needed days of aftercare from their latest session? Or, being a hypnotist, profiles, email requests or begging that they be made into a "mindless slave," of one variety or another?

When I comment, reply, or refuse with any kind of concern, I'm accused of being a fetish Nazi that doesn't appreciate the fullness of the spectrum, and that I don't have the right to criticise their kink.

So, what's up, people?

MH

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 10:00:14 AM

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quote:

How do you view profiles (or emails) that request abuse? Profiles that pang for, or promise "lovely bruises," "the aches that make me/you alive," or proclamations of being "worthless," or desiring to become "worthless?" Journals that brag that they needed days of aftercare from their latest session? Or, being a hypnotist, profiles, email requests or begging that they be made into a "mindless slave," of one variety or another?

These things above to me are worlds apart from abuse. Firstly there is intent, an abusers intent is very different to the intent of a Dom. A Dom's intent is usually one of mutual pleasure, contentment, happiness etc etc. An abusers intent is usually (in my experience) keeping you under his control for his benefit only. He doesn't care if you are fulfilled or happy etc etc, his only concern is that he keeps you. Most abusers are quite insecure (again in my experience) and are terrified you will leave. So they do their best to scare the shit out of you into staying.
I consent to the activities i carry out with Sir. I never consented to being abused. It may have appeared so by me staying in abusive relationships, but trust me had i been asked if i consented, the answer would have been no. At best in an abusive relationship my consent was uninformed.
I may at the time of being abused have been craving the treatment, beatings i was recieving but in a totally different context to how i was recieving them.
I want to be beaten and treated badly, humiliated, be made to feel lowest of the low. But i want to do those things out of love and caring and security, not hatred, fear and insecurity.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 10:02:34 AM

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Perhaps a simple "No thank you" versus a lecture may be more in order.

_____________________________

I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 10:32:39 AM

MasterHypnotist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I want to be beaten and treated badly, humiliated, be made to feel lowest of the low. But i want to do those things out of love and caring and security, not hatred, fear and insecurity.

I am an ignorant Dominant, and except for learned skills in hypnotism, have never claimed to be anything else.

Let me get this straight...

If "I" love "you," and you love me, I can beat you, treat you badly, humiliate you to the point of feeling you are the lowest of the low. Because we "love" each other, it's all right.

I am not saying there isn't some sense of pleasure, enjoyment, satisfaction, fulfillment, or whatever, out of it for each party involved. I believe there is. I'm just asking, is it right?

Y'all realize that if I had a BMW 550, really loved that vehicle, and took it out off-roading, whapped it with chains in the privacy of my own garage, scratched its paint, cut its interior leather, compromised its performance by sticking things where they don't belong, cussed and swore at it for now not being all it should be, and did minimal maintenance on it, or conversely, did outrageous maintenance and body work on it to bring it back near spec's, just so I could do it all over again... people would think I was just loopy! The 550 would suffer in its performance and value.

Why shouldn't someone on the outside have the right to be concerned? If the SPCA would cite me for being abusive if I did the same things to a dog or a horse, (which, if conditioned correctly would keep coming back) why is it OK to do it to a fellow human, simply because they comply?

Remember the posts about "not knowing any better?" "Normal" is what you know. It doesn't make it right.

What little abuse I've gotten or witnessed in the real world has been enough. I don't need to bring it into my private life.

MH

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 10:35:43 AM

MasterHypnotist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

Perhaps a simple "No thank you" versus a lecture may be more in order.

Cat,

Perhaps, but then that might deny the responder their own pleasure in responding more fully.

MH

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 10:49:18 AM

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quote:

If "I" love "you," and you love me, I can beat you, treat you badly, humiliate you to the point of feeling you are the lowest of the low. Because we "love" each other, it's all right.

Not exactly. And thats not really what i said. I said a mixture of intent, consent, love and caring made it a whole different ball game.

quote:

I am not saying there isn't some sense of pleasure, enjoyment, satisfaction, fulfillment, or whatever, out of it for each party involved. I believe there is. I'm just asking, is it right?

For myself and Sir it is right. Whats right for me and Sir is not going to be right for everyone though.

quote:

Y'all realize that if I had a BMW 550, really loved that vehicle, and took it out off-roading, whapped it with chains in the privacy of my own garage, scratched its paint, cut its interior leather, compromised its performance by sticking things where they don't belong, cussed and swore at it for now not being all it should be, and did minimal maintenance on it,

Minimal maintenance would be key here for me. I need aftercare, be it self aftercare or given by Sir. A sub / Dom relationship is no different to your analogy in general, good maintenance is needed. Without good maintenance your toy is likely to break, thats why i said i do these things in a loving, caring, secure relationship where i get good maintenance.

quote:

Why shouldn't someone on the outside have the right to be concerned?

Of course you have a right to be concerned, show concern. However you have to accept at some point that there are people out there who wish to be treat like this, run their relationships this way. Just because it is not your way doesn't make it wrong.

quote:

If the SPCA would cite me for being abusive if I did the same things to a dog or a horse, (which, if conditioned correctly would keep coming back) why is it OK to do it to a fellow human, simply because they comply?

Informed consent.

quote:

What little abuse I've gotten or witnessed in the real world has been enough. I don't need to bring it into my private life.

Then don't. However when i am beaten black and blue, curled up on the floor sobbing i am fucking loving it and not being abused in any way.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 11:56:09 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

Why shouldn't someone on the outside have the right to be concerned? If the SPCA would cite me for being abusive if I did the same things to a dog or a horse, (which, if conditioned correctly would keep coming back) why is it OK to do it to a fellow human, simply because they comply?

Remember the posts about "not knowing any better?" "Normal" is what you know. It doesn't make it right.

What little abuse I've gotten or witnessed in the real world has been enough. I don't need to bring it into my private life.

MH

People on the outside often ARE concerned actually, in some cases.

With an animal you don't tend to get the explicit expression of *I'm happy, I like this and I seek it out* and if offered an *out* no doubt the ill-treated animal would take it.

I wouldn't rule out people returning to abusive situations of certain types because it's well documented that they do despite the fact that they'd say they were NOT happy and content.

It's a good question though.......who's to say that someone in an M/s relationship isn't so conditioned that they don't recognise it as abusive?

People stay, despite being unhappy, people have relationships that *appear* abusive* and yet seem to thrive.

Thats probably the main difference....a beaten animal doesn't thrive from the interaction with someone who is consistantly *abusive* and nor does a human.

agirl

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 12:29:10 PM

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Just a side note about breaking things (this has probably been covered, but this thread is a novella by now and I haven't read all of it)~

When I was younger I broke things out of frustration, but it was all context dependent.
I only broke something in response to something I'd done - not as part of an interaction with someone else.
So, it was never an expression of anger towards someone else, it was just my own frustration at having fucked something up myself.
And I would only break my own stuff - I'd feel awful if I broke someone else's stuff.

I only mention this because I think this is not too uncommon and I wanted to point out what I see as an important distinction, and a distinction that was not made in some of the information that was given.

If it's been said by someone else in this thread, then sorry for the repetition.

As far as smashing stuff in front of others, again, if the anger is not directed at the other, I think that is an important factor. I kicked in a car door once while my girlfriend watched with that little ironic grin on her face. Immediately afterward I said "Sorry you had to see that", but she was totally unphased because she knew it wasn't about her.

After a while, I realized that smashing stuff "spur of the moment" was not a productive action (because I'd often have to replace the stuff. I also worked in carpentry where when you're first learning there are ample opportunities for dealing with frustration.)

So I tried the "take it out back and whack it with a sledgehammer" technique.
And, while smashing something like an alarm clock with a sledgehammer can be interesting, and it does dissipate the pent up energy somewhat, I figured out that it didn't really make me feel better. There was still that adrenalin and whatever else coursing through my blood and brain - in a negative way.

Finally, with practice, I've improved at just taking the long philosophical view, and understanding that sometimes life requires work and that work isn't a bad thing if it's towards a goal that you've chosen. To try to plan and prepare more, but still to realize that to expect infallibility is an impossible view.

(in reply to julietsierra)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 1:47:29 PM

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This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't issues--I used to be a New Orleans cop--specialized in domestic violence that included gays, lesbians and BDSMers---they scream for help, you step in, they scream to go back home--you don't step in, they kill or get killed, you get shit because you didn't step in.

We have to face the fact that there are some situations people are not going to stand by--they feel they have to voice what they perceive as sound voice of reason. I think that trait is admirable in any facet of life. IMHO, because someday in a completely different element of your life, you may need that voice.

There are those that say back the f*** off, its what I choose--fine so be it. As My grandmother used to say, you make your bed, you live or die in it.

_____________________________

I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 6:41:25 PM

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There are also those that gave an inclination that the abuse happening to them was not welcomed.Unable to go anywhere because they felt trapped. Eventually, they either accepted the abuse, managed to find someone to help with their removal or they retaliated by the removal of the abuser. In some cases, before there was 'self-defense' the individual was either incarcerated in sanitarium or a prison. Only to suffer further abuse which inevitably results in having self-destructive tendencies or suicidal tendencies.

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 8:14:04 PM

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There will always be a thousand stories in the naked city, its a fact of life, its a fact of humanity.

_____________________________

I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to Aszhrae)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 8:21:02 PM

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Are you being dismissive Cat, of the possible result of continued abuse because it has never happened to you? Or, are you dismissing it because you managed to rise above such matters?

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

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