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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 8:25:22 PM

IronBear

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To survive in Law enforcement, one needs ti ruse above it and shut some things pout or suffer a serious mental collapse.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/30/2008 9:08:08 PM

Lordandmaster

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I'm just selecting this portion of your thoughtful post because it's the only one that I have a comment on: the distinction that you mention came up earlier in the thread, but in the heat of battle most people ignored it.

I do kinda think that the "breaking stuff" aspect of the discussion has been resolved. We all seem to agree that sometimes it's abusive and sometimes it isn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

And I would only break my own stuff - I'd feel awful if I broke someone else's stuff.

I only mention this because I think this is not too uncommon and I wanted to point out what I see as an important distinction, and a distinction that was not made in some of the information that was given.

If it's been said by someone else in this thread, then sorry for the repetition.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/31/2008 2:06:30 PM

MasterHypnotist

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misturbation,

What a wonderful breakdown of the points.

I think we agree the problem is in the premise of this whole discussion. What one person sees as abuse (or is codified as abuse) is inconsequential to another.

So to criticise someone for enjoying or enduring something, or to criticise someone on the outside for not doing something to intervene, is problematic in the environment of CM. While, at the same time, move the very same conversation to a counseling convention, emergency room symposium, law enforcement, etc. and it's a brave person who stands up and says, "It's OK if they're consenting. Who cares if they can't care for themselves for three days, or are using medical equipment improperly?"

Y'all have a sense for just how vanilla I am. I appreciate that and thank you for letting me play, anyway.

MH

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Post #: 423

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/31/2008 8:03:01 PM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

misturbation,

What a wonderful breakdown of the points.

I think we agree the problem is in the premise of this whole discussion. What one person sees as abuse (or is codified as abuse) is inconsequential to another.

So to criticise someone for enjoying or enduring something, or to criticise someone on the outside for not doing something to intervene, is problematic in the environment of CM. While, at the same time, move the very same conversation to a counseling convention, emergency room symposium, law enforcement, etc. and it's a brave person who stands up and says, "It's OK if they're consenting. Who cares if they can't care for themselves for three days, or are using medical equipment improperly?"

Y'all have a sense for just how vanilla I am. I appreciate that and thank you for letting me play, anyway.

MH

In the main yes that is the crux of it. Everyone has their own view of what constitutes as abuse and what does not. Some / most, take your pick, people cannot comprehend informed consent or that we do what we do because we enjoy it etc etc.

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Post #: 424

RE: Subtle Abuse - 1/1/2009 11:20:12 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

Y'all realize that if I had a BMW 550, really loved that vehicle, and took it out off-roading, whapped it with chains in the privacy of my own garage, scratched its paint, cut its interior leather, compromised its performance by sticking things where they don't belong, cussed and swore at it for now not being all it should be, and did minimal maintenance on it, or conversely, did outrageous maintenance and body work on it to bring it back near spec's, just so I could do it all over again... people would think I was just loopy! The 550 would suffer in its performance and value.

I don't know if a 550 is an offroading vehicle. Let's say it is designed to go off road to be challenged to its fullest. Are you then doing it any favors if you keep it in the garage all the time, not using it, for fear of getting it scratched up? Beyond that, what pleasure would you have from buying a vehicle for a specific purpose and then not using it for that purpose, still being unable to go offroading despite owning a good offroad car?

Do not compare bruises with cutting the seats. Compare bruises with going through a mud puddle. It might take you all the next day to wash it and wax it until it again looked pristine. The wash and waxing for many people is fun in and of itself, it gives them satisfaction of a different kind than they got the previous day when they gaily drove through streams and swamps.

So the bruises are like the mud and the washing is the aftercare. Both have their place for people who enjoy being bruised and being tended afterwards and for the people who enjoy doing the bruising and doing the tending.

Now for me, we don't play to the point of bruising intentionally but he gets a kick out of rubbing my skin afterwards to eliminate rope marks. He gets a kick out of me being so out of it I'm likely to walk into walls if he doesn't keep his arm around me. He enjoys doing all of it, as do I.

Humiliation is something I don't do because I don't handle it well. But I respect enormously those who can do it. For people who are not as emotionally fragile as I am, there is great strength in being shown yourself at your lowest; no make up, tears and snot running down your face, begging for the basics - and then being shown equally that when you are at your lowest you are loved just as much if not more than when you are fully armored with cosmetics, careful dressing, civilized surroundings.

All of us have parts of ourselves we are not proud of, we wish to hide from others for fear of rejection. What could be better than to have those mean impulses, fears etc dragged out into broad daylight and know that you are loved not despite being less than perfect but because of it? That is unconditional love in my book and something few of us ever receive.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 1/1/2009 9:31:13 PM

needlesplease

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quote:

I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.

To someone who does not know you, it sounds as if you are being arrogant. I, however know you wrote that line with a big fat smile on your face

I never knew anyone with as much passion for bettering himself than you. My dear, sweet, honest and loyal friend.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 1/2/2009 9:38:15 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

My personal reasons is that in the past, while I never physically hurt any of my partners I did use my anger to control them. I didn't often break things but I did at time as well as the classic pounding fists onto and into things.

I'd estimate your example is about as subtle as last week's Christmas do when a colleague stood at the end of the corridor with his cock out pretending to be a door.

The most subtle I can come up with is a mind fuck, where communication is littered with compliments and subtle insults, so that the person on the receiving end is not sure where he/she stands; one week all's fine, but the next it's pure uncertainty and the person on the receiving end has no idea what he/she has done to deserve such treatment. In other words, the person on the receiving end is ran 'round in circles, which, of course, is the idea as it is undermining and intended to work someone into the ground. It sounds fairly common sense, but some on the receiving end will believe they're in the wrong and be unable to work out what is really going on. When all's said and done, no one deserves such treatment - you don't like certain attributes in a person? say your goodbyes and get on with your life.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 1/2/2009 2:38:09 PM

ForAlways

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The most subtle I can come up with is a mind fuck, where communication is littered with compliments and subtle insults, so that the person on the receiving end is not sure where he/she stands; one week all's fine, but the next it's pure uncertainty and the person on the receiving end has no idea what he/she has done to deserve such treatment. In other words, the person on the receiving end is ran 'round in circles, which, of course, is the idea as it is undermining and intended to work someone into the ground. It sounds fairly common sense, but some on the receiving end will believe they're in the wrong and be unable to work out what is really going on. When all's said and done, no one deserves such treatment - you don't like certain attributes in a person? say your goodbyes and get on with your life.

I couldn't agree more with the statement above.

Michael, thank you for posting this. Subtle abuse, I wish I had known that "term" a year and a half ago.

For me, the "subtle" abuse is the mental and emotional abuse. The small remarks about one's "insecurities, fears, doubts and limits" that are continuously condescending, cruel or just plain mean. When you question, you're told "That's what a mind fuck is." And then you start to question your value as a submissive and why you're not allowed your feelings on a matter. From there, it's a downward spiral and, no matter how hard you try to avoid the train wreck you see coming, there's just no way to do it.

When humiliation, degradation and "mind fucks" were never a part of the past dynamic and, all of a sudden the statements that are being made are grouped under what I consider a "safe umbrella" of the term "mind fuck" it's just a safety net and can very much constitute subtle abuse if done in a gradual way.

This is where NG's statement "you don't like certain attributes in a person? say your goodbyes and get on with your life " makes the most sense, then hurt that is NOT a part of a dynamic (agreed upon) is spared.

And, I've probably rambled on and on about subjects that were already addressed in the previous 21 pages that I didn't bother to read through entirely.

*grin*

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Post #: 428