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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 3:16:50 PM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
Absolutely not.

There was a LONG list of things in that post that would have had me wending my way, the gun is almost surreal.

I've been treated incredibly well, by comparison, by the men in my life. I haven't expected much less, to be honest.

agirl

I thought not and I was hoping that you hadn't and never will. I've been on both ends of a loaded gun of all types and sizes. I know what it is like to believe that you are about to die and I know what it is like to aim a gun at someone and even execute them as well as shooting them in combat close quaters. No one should ever have to face that and livewith it either. However, I too have seen first hand as a Priest, a Counsellor and as a Psychologist, the dammage done in similar cases described here. At lease lass you appear tp have your head on straight and are in a good relationship with a dynamic which suits you. I likje that you are honest and explain where you are coming from too.

_____________________________

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(in reply to T1981)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 3:21:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
But I DO know what I'd do as ME.

This is an interesting statement in that it brought something to mind. When abuse is very subtle, very slow, pretty well unnoticeable, the "you" that you know now is not the "you" you end up being, later on in the relationship (I'm using "you" generically here). Such subtle abuse slowly erodes the spirit over time until the self confidence you used to have to gradually and slowly disappear. The strength with which you used to conduct yourself fails to hold you up. The pride you once took in your intelligence and common sense has turned to doubt and uncertainty, and the love you used to feel for yourself has turned to loathing.

You may say you would never let it get to that point. You may be right. You may also be wrong. We all, as people, have different levels of awareness and inner strength. We all, as people, have different places where our lines are crossed, and different levels of weaknesses. No one is better or worse than another for any of it. So while one person may recognize and leave abuse before it becomes overly destructive, another may not. It is unfair to believe everyone should conduct themselves with the same rule book, as is often what people believe.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to agirl)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 3:26:00 PM

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From: Savannah, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Hi LAM,

I was going to stay out of the abuse discussions, too, but your comments are surprising to me and I want to comment my thoughts, in turn.
:: snip ::
You have been asking (in the other thread) for all sorts of clinical papers that define abuse and its progression. Why? I did a Google search and found all sorts of things that support what years of counseling have already taught me - assault to the body/mind/heart/spirit is abuse. To stand hard in defense of that, demonstrates, in my opinion, an unwillingness to look beyond one's own behavior and persona and the effects it may have on others. It is to stand in place with little regard for others. And while I know that sometimes people throw the "abuse" word around as an excuse for not looking at their own person and possible issues with the ability to reason, I haven't seen that addressed here - I have seen people genuinely speak of their own histories with abuse, and those stories brushed aside for lack of "clinical evidence." Is is not enough that someone might feel emotionally unsafe? Should that be reason enough for someone to want to evaluate his/her own behavior in the situation? Or is is more important to stand firm that "My behavior is ok and the rest of you are wrong." ??

BRILLIANT post, Nueva!

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(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 4:50:09 PM

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I asked for something very specific: just one example of the supposedly well-documented fact that abusers display a pattern of breaking inanimate objects before moving on to harming other people. Why? Because I think it's bullshit--and dangerous bullshit, for the reasons I indicated in the other thread.

Instead, I got accused of daring to question Lockit's unspecified experience as a counselor; sympathizing with an unsympathetic OP; condoning abusive behavior; and God knows what other crap that had nothing to do with what I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

You have been asking (in the other thread) for all sorts of clinical papers that define abuse and its progression. Why?

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:01:08 PM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
But I DO know what I'd do as ME.

This is an interesting statement in that it brought something to mind. When abuse is very subtle, very slow, pretty well unnoticeable, the "you" that you know now is not the "you" you end up being, later on in the relationship (I'm using "you" generically here). Such subtle abuse slowly erodes the spirit over time until the self confidence you used to have to gradually and slowly disappear. The strength with which you used to conduct yourself fails to hold you up. The pride you once took in your intelligence and common sense has turned to doubt and uncertainty, and the love you used to feel for yourself has turned to loathing.

You may say you would never let it get to that point. You may be right. You may also be wrong. We all, as people, have different levels of awareness and inner strength. We all, as people, have different places where our lines are crossed, and different levels of weaknesses. No one is better or worse than another for any of it. So while one person may recognize and leave abuse before it becomes overly destructive, another may not. It is unfair to believe everyone should conduct themselves with the same rule book, as is often what people believe.

I say that I never HAVE let it get to that point. I haven't a single doubt that it happens from anecdotal evidence and so on and so forth.

I don't think I've indicated that one person is better than another for their differences in their levels of weakness, awareness or inner strength etc.....and I've actually said that I have stayed beyond the point where I should have left, by my own definitions. I know that my staying power or tolerance level has changed as I've become older.

Whatever *rulebook* I've used to live my life is only applicable to me...just as I haven't a FULL understanding of people that succumb to insidious types of abuse....I'm sure that it may be just as inexplicable why I haven't or why other people haven't.

agirl

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:15:12 PM

agirl

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quote:

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
Absolutely not.

There was a LONG list of things in that post that would have had me wending my way, the gun is almost surreal.

I've been treated incredibly well, by comparison, by the men in my life. I haven't expected much less, to be honest.

agirl

I thought not and I was hoping that you hadn't and never will. I've been on both ends of a loaded gun of all types and sizes. I know what it is like to believe that you are about to die and I know what it is like to aim a gun at someone and even execute them as well as shooting them in combat close quaters. No one should ever have to face that and livewith it either. However, I too have seen first hand as a Priest, a Counsellor and as a Psychologist, the dammage done in similar cases described here. At lease lass you appear tp have your head on straight and are in a good relationship with a dynamic which suits you. I likje that you are honest and explain where you are coming from too.

I'm not immune to disaster or ghastly tragedy. My head is where it's at because I've been up close and personal to some rather awful situations. I'm old enough to know what I will or won't endure..in likely situations.

There will always be the situations that no-one can account for. Or perhaps undergoing a major personality change.

agirl

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:29:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

This isn't personal, I am breaking this plate (with the clear implication "instead of you") because I am so angry that you don't do things I need to feel loved.

i would expect my partner, especially a man who was dominant to me, to guide me and enlighten me in the ways he both enjoys and needs to feel love.

breaking plates to assert anger and disappointment show a complete lack of control of one's own life. i wouldn't consider this abuse, however i would exit the relationship immediately with the understanding that we had failed each other on such a base level, there would be no reason to continue. if you cannot verbalize those needs and i in turn cannot carry them out, then i am not truly yours.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:40:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I asked for something very specific: just one example of the supposedly well-documented fact that abusers display a pattern of breaking inanimate objects before moving on to harming other people. Why? Because I think it's bullshit--and dangerous bullshit, for the reasons I indicated in the other thread.

Instead, I got accused of daring to question Lockit's unspecified experience as a counselor; sympathizing with an unsympathetic OP; condoning abusive behavior; and God knows what other crap that had nothing to do with what I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

You have been asking (in the other thread) for all sorts of clinical papers that define abuse and its progression. Why?

LAM, I will get you some well documented research by well known researchers on all this tomorrow. I know why you want that as so much crap and bs is asserted on these boards by people who couldn't back it up gets tiresome.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:49:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThundersCry

Humbe men don`t walk around claming to be so...

You would not know a humble pie... if it hit you in the face...

pfffft...your so full of yourself Michael...

When I wrote the following:

quote:

I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.

It was meant as self effacing sarcasm to lighten the post rather to actually claim I am "transcended". I know I can be an arrogant ass but I am so utterly charming when I do it though, however, I apologize to those it rubs the wrong way.

(in reply to ThundersCry)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:53:35 PM

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Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Like Rayne, the constant put downs caused learned helplessness. I learned that no matter what I did, I was wrong, so it was safer never to do anything.

The problems left over into this relationship are that I am still relatively passive. It takes a perfect day for me to initiate sexual contact because I'm so afraid of being rejected meanly. I'm afraid of anticipatory service for fear of guessing wrong as to what he might like and being shot down as a result.

The scars left are many and longlasting. All from verbal and emotional abuse.

Ding ding! Thank you Celeste for putting into words what I have been struggling to explain to Sir for ages. I know that He would never reject me in a mean way, but it's the rejection itself that I'm afraid of

if that makes sense

I am going to show Him your post

Thank you again

_____________________________

Collared sub and married to Nevershyau

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:58:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I asked for something very specific: just one example of the supposedly well-documented fact that abusers display a pattern of breaking inanimate objects before moving on to harming other people. Why? Because I think it's bullshit--and dangerous bullshit, for the reasons I indicated in the other thread.

Okay, Lam, since you seem incapable of doing basic research, I found the following quotation at the following link, which is the National Council on Child Abuse and Family Violence, with less than five minutes of my time invested:

http://www.nccafv.org/spouse.htm

Emotional and/or Psychological Abuse...
This form of violence has the power to destroy the victim’s self-esteem over time. Although not as visible as physical or sexual violence, the scars of emotional and/or psychological abuse are traumatic and long lasting. This form of abuse is almost always present in families where physical and/or sexual domestic violence occur.

Intimidation, e.g. looks, gestures, yelling, smashing things or destroying the victim’s property, threats to harm a child or children or keep them from the victim, isolating the victim from family and friends and economic domination are common ways in which abusers cause emotional and/or psychological damage to their victims.

Lam, you can continue to be obtuse, or you can accept that destroying property in anger is correlated to domestic abuse. Those of us who have been on the receiving end of your unfounded, scathing remarks await your apology.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:59:40 PM

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quote:

No, I don't know what I would do AS you. But I DO know what I'd do as ME.

I thought that too once. However when put in a situation that i was positive i'd act a certain way in and i didn't, i realised how naive that thinking was. I agree totally with Mist of erin that until put in a situation you cannot 100% say how you will react.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to agirl)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 6:34:31 PM

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So, LaM, would it be your contention that unless someone can prove beyond doubt that certain actions are considered warning signs of abuse, such as breaking objects or threatening to harm pets, you don't consider those acts abusive? Well, is that all? In that event, many things wouldn't be a warning sign for an abusive relationship.

In the other thread, for those who haven't read it, the breaking of the plate was that person's reaction to a badly cooked dinner and that his needs weren't being met. The underlying message was, cook good enough to please him and be more aware of his needs or his anger would result in breaking things. It wasn't because he had a bad reaction to stubbing his toe. It was a way to prove to her that bad things would happen if things weren't done to his satisfaction.

Since it's enjoyed so much, I'll throw out some more of that unconfirmed psychobabble that everyone has loved. At certain battered women's shelters around the country, one thing that is required as part of the stay in a safe house is that an amount of time be spent in group sessions. Some of which is for the women to share their stories and to receive guidance on how to break the cycle of abuse. It's intent is to help them stay out of abusive relationships after leaving the shelter, whether that be with the person they left because they swear up and down that they have "changed" or because the woman's pattern has been to seek out and be involved with the same type of man. Care to venture a guess if breaking objects in anger is a sign to watch for?

_____________________________

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 6:55:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I asked for something very specific: just one example of the supposedly well-documented fact that abusers display a pattern of breaking inanimate objects before moving on to harming other people. Why? Because I think it's bullshit--and dangerous bullshit, for the reasons I indicated in the other thread.

Instead, I got accused of daring to question Lockit's unspecified experience as a counselor; sympathizing with an unsympathetic OP; condoning abusive behavior; and God knows what other crap that had nothing to do with what I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

You have been asking (in the other thread) for all sorts of clinical papers that define abuse and its progression. Why?

LAM, I will get you some well documented research by well known researchers on all this tomorrow. I know why you want that as so much crap and bs is asserted on these boards by people who couldn't back it up gets tiresome.

We did back it up with links.. he didn't care to read them, said they didn't say what was just posted a couple post above this one and said he didn't believe it. The first link was a document that is accepted and used by policem, shelter and such. Yet he continues to say we are dangerous because we are putting false information out there. Yeah... okay...

_____________________________

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 6:57:42 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

No, I don't know what I would do AS you. But I DO know what I'd do as ME.

I thought that too once. However when put in a situation that i was positive i'd act a certain way in and i didn't, i realised how naive that thinking was. I agree totally with Mist of erin that until put in a situation you cannot 100% say how you will react.

......and just to add the rest of the post that it was snipped from...

No, I don't know what I would do AS you. But I DO know what I'd do as ME.

No-one can BE you, in your situation, under the same circumstances, with the understanding of every nuance that took place. Come on.

I haven't *loved that hard* NO....but I have walked away from situations that every bit of me but my sense of self, was urging me not to. I have walked, painfully, step after step away from a place where I LONGED to remain. I'm not talking about 5 minute flings, but longheld, child-sharing situations.

Not everyone is the same......I can appreciate why people stay, because I have stayed, long past the time that it would have been the best to have gone; NOT out of *loving* but because I wanted time to make the best decisions where the sprogs were concerned.

I agree that I haven't had a master that drank or was hideously behaved........but I don't love anyone THAT much mistoferin. You may not understand that , as much as I have to try to understand that you did/do.

agirl

(in reply to missturbation)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 6:59:57 PM

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I guess I will stagger about looking for a website that I lost the bookmark for--because some of the things that the OP Michael mentioned are related to big changes that have been made in the last decade or so in helping men to address anger management issues.
Putting it into layman's terms--the causes of anger are not the same for everyone..and one treatment plan will not fit all. In my state, anger management centers are moving towards giving a simple assessment test which helps define the type of treatment a person will need for a successful outcome.
For many years men were taught sytems of coping skills--some as simple as the rubber band around the wrist--snapping the band several times to literally stop the brain from following the usual path--reshaping the behaviors. Rubber band works but only to stop the reaction.. and won't stop the trigger.
"Coping" doesn't remove the trigger--the feeling or emotion, the learned behaviors.. that is why therapists now often try to find the reason for the anger.. what's behind it. This newer style seems to help many men give up/address the "issue" so that eventually, the coping isn't needed.
Yes I use the word "men" because most of the research and treatment has been designed for men.
It is men who are most often mandated by the court to attend anger mangement classes when convicted of domestic violence.
Mixing up dropped hammers and stubbed toes with the type/level of anger that results in abuse--it actually rather confuses this important topic.
It's also interesting to me that some who refuse to be abused.. will claim that the behavior exhibited is not abusive.. sort of an "it takes two to tango" concept. I don't care if you chose to deny, ignore, leave or whatever choice you make when faced with abusive behavior.. it is still Abusive. That behavior is not in the eye of the beholder, it's in the mind and action of the abuser.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:02:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

This is an interesting statement in that it brought something to mind. When abuse is very subtle, very slow, pretty well unnoticeable, the "you" that you know now is not the "you" you end up being, later on in the relationship (I'm using "you" generically here). Such subtle abuse slowly erodes the spirit over time until the self confidence you used to have to gradually and slowly disappear. The strength with which you used to conduct yourself fails to hold you up. The pride you once took in your intelligence and common sense has turned to doubt and uncertainty, and the love you used to feel for yourself has turned to loathing.

You may say you would never let it get to that point. You may be right. You may also be wrong. We all, as people, have different levels of awareness and inner strength. We all, as people, have different places where our lines are crossed, and different levels of weaknesses. No one is better or worse than another for any of it. So while one person may recognize and leave abuse before it becomes overly destructive, another may not. It is unfair to believe everyone should conduct themselves with the same rule book, as is often what people believe.

Before i got married, i had the gumption to get an education, move from one country to another, buy a car and pay it off, and live by myself, with friends that i enjoyed- all before i was 22. If you had told me that i would end up in a marraige with an abuser, i would have laughed at you.
But i did.
And i stayed with him for years longer than i needed to, first because i didn't recognise what was going on, and then, because i had two kids and a husband who had convinced me that i couldn't live by myself and make it with two kids. This is the same man that, when i had a letter to the editor published and i showed it to him in delight, asked me who wrote it for me.
This is another one of those situations that happens when you aren't looking, and all of a sudden you wonder where the hell the love went. Don't be too arrogant about your ability to see abuse and leave it - it can happen to the saaviest person. Male and female.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:19:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I asked for something very specific: just one example of the supposedly well-documented fact that abusers display a pattern of breaking inanimate objects before moving on to harming other people. Why? Because I think it's bullshit--and dangerous bullshit, for the reasons I indicated in the other thread.

Instead, I got accused of daring to question Lockit's unspecified experience as a counselor; sympathizing with an unsympathetic OP; condoning abusive behavior; and God knows what other crap that had nothing to do with what I said.

In that case, I am sorry for asking a serious and legitimate question for you in that other thread. I had hoped that I could gain a better understanding of reasoning behind that statement quoted, nothing more and nothing less. Again, my apologies.

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:25:18 PM

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It's taken everything i have to stay away from this thread. i wonder (for those of you who are having a hard time getting the subtlety of abuse) if you have ever lived in a climate where the weather changes with the season. Here in Illinois, it's currently somewhere below 0. I'd be shocked and outraged if tomorrow the weather were 103 degrees. Fortunately for me, it doesn't occur that way. It will slowly increase to a warmer and warmer climate. Each day has a different degree. Do we always notice? No, because it happens so subtley. That's exactly what happens in relationships (or families) where the cycle of violence occurs. Most people do not wake up one day with someone doing something horrific to them (raping them, beating them, burning them, killing their pets...to name a few that i've endured) it starts really slowly. With being called a name, or being told you've gained some weight. It starts out with your feelings being hurt, but not concretly. It's almost as if you are at times losing your mind. Because what was in the past so very clear...So, black and white has now become all these other shades of colors. The reality is most abusers are very smart at what they are doing. They know who to pick out....they know how to manipulate them...they know what to say and when to say it...Do you think that my father just walked up to me one day and said, "oh by the way..You are a stupid fat cow, who's repulsive looking, and no many is ever going to love you."? Nope...It was not that simple or that blatant.
LAM, i think i understand where you are coming from. Personally (and professionally) this is a topic that makes me cringe a little bit. i have some personal pet peeves with 'armchair psychologists'....But, frankly most of the stuff that has been posted has been spot on...Here's a like for some more information: http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf
If you take a look at the power and control wheel under intimidation it talks about breaking and smashing things. Don't get me wrong, recently i dropped a glass and broke it. Does that mean i'm going to abuse the cat tonight? No, it means i'm a clutz. However, if the cat spills it's water and i throw a glass against the wall......i'm thinking i may have caused some trauma to the cat. According to the progression of violence the natural consequence is for this type of behavior to escalate... One of the next steps is for that anger...that level of rage...to become physical.
Honestly, i don't know if any of this makes any sense. There are very few things i know for certain but these are some of them:
* i hope i will not again in the future say i will never do, be, accept, whatever X.... (because reality is everytime i've said it i've found myself in that situation)
* Today i've been given the tools (by so many gracious, loving, and caring people) to keep myself safe from abusive people and abusive relationships.
* Today i am a thriver...i've moved beyond that survivor role.
* Today i am no one's victim, and i've also decided not to volunteer for anyone else's insanity.

Kali
(who does not have spell check on this computer)

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to kiwisub12)

RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:51:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

No, I don't know what I would do AS you. But I DO know what I'd do as ME.

I thought that too once. However when put in a situation that i was positive i'd act a certain way in and i didn't, i realised how naive that thinking was. I agree totally with Mist of erin that until put in a situation you cannot 100% say how you will react.

......and just to add the rest of the post that it was snipped from...

No, I don't know what I would do AS you. But I DO know what I'd do as ME.

No-one can BE you, in your situation, under the same circumstances, with the understanding of every nuance that took place. Come on.

I haven't *loved that hard* NO....but I have walked away from situations that every bit of me but my sense of self, was urging me not to. I have walked, painfully, step after step away from a place where I LONGED to remain. I'm not talking about 5 minute flings, but longheld, child-sharing situations.

Not everyone is the same......I can appreciate why people stay, because I have stayed, long past the time that it would have been the best to have gone; NOT out of *loving* but because I wanted time to make the best decisions where the sprogs were concerned.

I agree that I haven't had a master that drank or was hideously behaved........but I don't love anyone THAT much mistoferin. You may not understand that , as much as I have to try to understand that you did/do.

agirl

And that changed what i said how?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to agirl)

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