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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:35:13 PM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I asked for something very specific: just one example of the supposedly well-documented fact that abusers display a pattern of breaking inanimate objects before moving on to harming other people.  Why?  Because I think it's bullshit--and dangerous bullshit, for the reasons I indicated in the other thread.

Instead, I got accused of daring to question Lockit's unspecified experience as a counselor; sympathizing with an unsympathetic OP; condoning abusive behavior; and God knows what other crap that had nothing to do with what I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

You have been asking (in the other thread) for all sorts of clinical papers that define abuse and its progression.  Why?



This is going to be lengthy, but perhaps it will help others who are reading.  I'm all for educating those who do not know.  Even in this advanced society where we are so much more knowledgeable about so many things, this is one topic that is still hotly debated.  Having come from an abusive environment, I often become frustrated that so many are  unaware about this topic.  All I can do is try to educate, and hope that someone walks away with a little more understanding than when they arrived.

So here goes...(apologies in advance if the formatting is funky - I compiled it in Word and I'm pasting it here))


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  


The Michigan Judicial Institute authored the linked publication in 2004.  It is a lengthy but extremely informative document which discusses abuse (physical and non physical) and its effects.  In it, it mentions when someone in an abusive situation tries to leave, the abuse often escalates. http://courts.michigan.gov/mji/resources/focdv/focdv-chap1.pdf  


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  This website was created by Gary Direnfeld, child behavior expert, social worker, and the author of “Raising Kids Without Raising Cane.”  He serves as an expert in the court system of Ontario, Canada.  http://www.womansdivorce.com/psychological-emotional-abuse.html   This site contains an interesting article on emotional abuse and its effects.  In this article, he states:    Escalating Control If she seems to be escaping his grip, he may then resort to more sinister control strategies. He may place his well-being or his very life in her hands. He may threaten to hurt himself or even suicide if she leaves him. Thus now feeling overwhelmingly responsible for his welfare, she succumbs to his demands for an ever-exclusive relationship. He then becomes more prone to using negative and upsetting control strategies to maintain his grip, knowing that his threat of self-harm is now all that is necessary to maintain her compliance.     

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  

The (United States) Center for Disease Control and Prevention developed a standard definition for “Intimate Partner Violence” which can be found here:  http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/IPV/ipv-definitions.htm   They define Psychological/Emotional Violence as:  “Psychological/emotional violence involves trauma to the victim caused by acts, threats of acts, or coercive tactics. Psychological/emotional abuse can include, but is not limited to, humiliating the victim, controlling what the victim can and cannot do, withholding information from the victim, deliberately doing something to make the victim feel diminished or embarrassed, isolating the victim from friends and family, and denying the victim access to money or other basic resources. It is considered psychological/emotional violence when there has been prior physical or sexual violence or prior threat of physical or sexual violence.”   Here is a link to their interesting fact sheet on the consequences of Domestic Violence, now known as Intimate Partner Violence:  http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/IPV/ipv-consequences.htm   A tidbit on the escalation of abuse over time:  More severe physical consequences of IPV may occur depending on severity and frequency of abuse (Campbell et al. 2002; Heise and Garcia-Moreno 2002; Plichta 2004; Tjaden and Thoennes 2000).  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Center for Relationship Abuse Awareness, partnered with Stanford University, provides professional training, consultation, and prevention education for professors, students, corporations, health care providers, law enforcement, social workers and the general public.  They provide support networks for battered women in the San Francisco area, as well as teen dating resources and free legal resources.    In their website (http://www.stoprelationshipabuse.org/emotionalabuse.html)  they post a bullet list about both physical and emotional abuse. In it, they state: ·         Recognize that emotional abuse should be taken seriously. ·         Know that emotional abuse can escalate to physical violence.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  

  From the (United States) National Coalition Against Domestic Violence:   “Abuse generally falls into one or more of the following categories: physical battering, sexual assault and emotional or psychological abuse, and generally escalates over a period of time.   Victims of abuse may experience punched walls, control of finances, lying, using children to manipulate a parent's emotions, intimidation, isolation from family and friends, fear, shame, criticism, cuts, crying and afraid children, broken bones, confusion, forced sexual contact, manipulation, sexist comments, yelling, rages, craziness, harassment, neglect, shoving, screaming, jealousy and possessiveness, loss of self esteem, coercion, slammed doors, abandonment, silent treatment, rape, destruction of personal property, unwanted touching, name calling, strangling, ripping, slapping, biting, kicking, bruises, punching, stalking, scrapes, depression, sabotaging attendance at job or school, brainwashing, violence to pets, pinching, deprivation of physical and economic resources, public humiliation, broken promises, prevention of seeking medical and dental care, ridicule, restraining, self-medication, forced tickling, threats to harm family and friends, threats to take away the children, threats to harm animals, threats of being kicked out, threats of weapons, threats of being killed.” http://www.ncadv.org/learn/TheProblem_100.html       Here is the Coalition’s Fact Sheet:  http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf   Page 2 shows a “Power and Control” diagram.   

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The Santa Clara County (California) Public Health Department prepared another document/statistical report on domestic violence, which can be found here:  http://www.growing.com/nonviolent/   Excerpts: Domestic Violence is the escalating pattern of behavior where one partner in an intimate relationship controls another through force, intimidation or the threat of violence. • definition used by five domestic violence agencies for training Santa Clara County staff on domestic violence.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  

From the Mid Valley Women’s Crisis Center, Salem, Oregon: Venting Is Not OK Techniques and therapies like pillow-punching or primal-screaming are NOT appropriate for abusers. They tend to reinforce, rather than discourage, violent behavior. These techniques should not be a part of any intervention program.” A very good informational document can be found here:  http://www.mvwcs.com/pdf/DomesticViolenceMVWCSEn.pdf   Other excerpts from that presentation: ·        FACT: Domestic violence has nothing to do with anger. Anger is a tool abusers use to get what they want. We know abusers are actually very much in control because they can stop when someone knocks on the door or the phone rings; ·        FACT: Survivors of abuse may have had great self-esteem at the beginning of the relationship, but the abuser uses emotional abuse: calling her names, putting her down, telling her it is all her fault, in order to destroy her self-esteem. Some abusers look for women with low self-esteem, as they believe she will be more likely to blame herself and less likely to report his behavior. Other abusers will seek women with high self-esteem, as they may represent a greater challenge to control over time. ·        FACT: Abusers usually escalate violent behaviors in frequency and intensity over time.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  

Doctor Lenore Walker (Center for Psychological Studies, former professor at Rutgers and Colorado Women’s college, author of “Battered Women,” “Dynamics of Domestic” and 9 other books, and recipient of the APA Presidential Citation award for her work in forensic psychology, currently working at NSU as the Coordinator of Clinical Forensic Psychology Concentration) is the director of  the Domestic Violence Institute created the following questionnaire, stating if you answered “yes” to 5 or more questions, or to questions #12, 13, 14 or 15, “…there is too much violence in your home and you need to do something right now” http://www.dviworld.org/battered%20women.html   Her Cycle of Violence theory, introduced and accepted in the 70s, can be found here:  http://www.mysistersplacedc.org/HOcycle.asp  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Domestic Violence and Resource Center, Australia Website for young people in relationships: When Love Hurts http://www.dvrcv.org.au/whenlove/infospace.htm “Thousands of girls experience violence in their relationships, probably more than you think. An Australian Bureau of Statistics survey of women in 1996 found that young women were more likely to be at risk of violence from their partner compared to older women. The survey estimated that 7.3% of women aged 18-24 had experienced violence by their current partners in the previous 12 months in Australia, compared to 2.1% of women aged 45-54 years. A New Zealand study of 21 year olds found that in the previous 12 months, 11.3% of females and 2.7% of males had experienced physical assault from their partners. Australian Bureau of Statistics. Women's Safety Australia. Canberra: ABS, 1996.”     Page 10 of this online Relationships booklet put together by the above organization provides a checklist for young people to understand if their relationship is healthy or abusive.  One of the checkbox statements is: “My boyfriend or girlfriend sometimes scares me or hurts me by being aggressive or violent”.    Page 13 lists the feelings an abused person might experience in a relationship:  Humiliated, bad about yourself, confused, nervous, guilty, depressed, scared, trapped. http://www.dvirc.org.au/PublicationsHub/RelationshipsBooklet.pdf  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:44:30 PM   
mistoferin


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Thank you immensely for posting those. Even if it did shake me up when I realized that there are only 3 things on this list that I didn't get an up close and personal experience with.

quote:

Victims of abuse may experience punched walls, control of finances, lying, using children to manipulate a parent's emotions, intimidation, isolation from family and friends, fear, shame, criticism, cuts, crying and afraid children, broken bones, confusion, forced sexual contact, manipulation, sexist comments, yelling, rages, craziness, harassment, neglect, shoving, screaming, jealousy and possessiveness, loss of self esteem, coercion, slammed doors, abandonment, silent treatment, rape, destruction of personal property, unwanted touching, name calling, strangling, ripping, slapping, biting, kicking, bruises, punching, stalking, scrapes, depression, sabotaging attendance at job or school, brainwashing, violence to pets, pinching, deprivation of physical and economic resources, public humiliation, broken promises, prevention of seeking medical and dental care, ridicule, restraining, self-medication, forced tickling, threats to harm family and friends, threats to take away the children, threats to harm animals, threats of being kicked out, threats of weapons, threats of being killed.”   


_____________________________

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(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:48:41 PM   
Kalista07


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Nueve Vida and Erin,
i hope You both know how highly i think of you...You both have my utmost respect, and you deserve so much more. You have much more patience and tolerance with people who choose to remain ignorant than i could possibly manage ever. Thank You both for the amount of information You have both attempted to give to uninformed, uneducated people.
Kali


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:56:36 PM   
Lockit


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Lordandmaster you didn't once ask me about my experience... you asked for documentation on abusive patterns because you didn't agree with what some of us were saying.  I provided links that said the same things that most were saying about abuse.  Let's keep the facts straight.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 9:17:58 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I said on the other thread that I was done with this subject, but since people have transferred the discussion onto this thread, I'll carefully explain myself one last time, and then leave you all to your own opinions, since we're starting to go around in circles.

Let me respond to the quote below, since other people have taken the liberty of privately e-mailing me links to the same site.  So helpful, guys!  Anyway, I've highlighted the phrase that's objectionable.  The litany of behaviors following the phrase "one or more of the following categories" includes things that don't belong in the same category.

Rape is abuse.  Intimidation is abuse.  Sexual assault is abuse.  Threatening to harm family and friends is abuse.  I don't think we're going to disagree about any of those.

But I'm sorry, criticism is not abuse.  Yelling is not abuse.  Silent treatment is not abuse.  Slammed doors are not abuse.  Broken promises are not abuse.  Maybe you don't like them, but they're not abuse.  The most you can say about the things in this category is that they often accompany abuse--but often enough they don't.  In fact, they usually don't.  What relationship doesn't have yelling and criticism?  By those criteria, EVERYONE is an abuser.  That's ridiculous and only undermines the credibility of the National Coalition against Domestic Violence, as laudable as their mission is.  Even worse, it trivializes real abuse.

What would be much more useful than a subjective "fact sheet" indiscriminately labeling all kinds of things as "abuse" would be a pamphlet outlining the pertinent LAWS and the options available to women who feel threatened.  That would do a world of good.  Some people on here have taken the extremely childish attitude that because I'm challenging the supposedly well-documented link between breaking things and abusing people, I must be condoning abuse or I must be a moron.  Come on people, grow up.

Lastly, I'd advise people to read this post by a member called talktomeplease:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2357358

It was on the original thread, but most people ignored it the first time because it didn't fall in with the party line and the user apparently got tired of defending herself against the outlandish misrepresentations of what she actually said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

From the (United States) National Coalition Against Domestic Violence:   “Abuse generally falls into one or more of the following categories: physical battering, sexual assault and emotional or psychological abuse, and generally escalates over a period of time.   Victims of abuse may experience punched walls, control of finances, lying, using children to manipulate a parent's emotions, intimidation, isolation from family and friends, fear, shame, criticism, cuts, crying and afraid children, broken bones, confusion, forced sexual contact, manipulation, sexist comments, yelling, rages, craziness, harassment, neglect, shoving, screaming, jealousy and possessiveness, loss of self esteem, coercion, slammed doors, abandonment, silent treatment, rape, destruction of personal property, unwanted touching, name calling, strangling, ripping, slapping, biting, kicking, bruises, punching, stalking, scrapes, depression, sabotaging attendance at job or school, brainwashing, violence to pets, pinching, deprivation of physical and economic resources, public humiliation, broken promises, prevention of seeking medical and dental care, ridicule, restraining, self-medication, forced tickling, threats to harm family and friends, threats to take away the children, threats to harm animals, threats of being kicked out, threats of weapons, threats of being killed.” http://www.ncadv.org/learn/TheProblem_100.html

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 9:20:57 PM   
Kalista07


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why do i have the words from that song "another one bites the dust" in my head?
Kali


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“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 9:31:46 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Christ, why are you so aggressive?

It's weird.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 9:37:27 PM   
KatyLied


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quote:

Page 13 lists the feelings an abused person might experience in a relationship: Humiliated, bad about yourself, confused, nervous, guilty, depressed, scared, trapped.


Whoa.  I've felt that when I'm not in a relationship!


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 9:41:23 PM   
BeIgnited


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Christ, why are you so aggressive?

It's weird.


Are you honestly surprised that this is a hot button issue for those whose experiences are defined by what you have determined is "not abuse"?

This isn't a topic easily divorced from emotion for many.

What you have just done here-essentially saying "it's not that bad"-is exactly what you seem to be concerned about. It's trivializing.



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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 9:43:15 PM   
missturbation


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Very well said !!

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 10:08:44 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Let me respond to the quote below, since other people have taken the liberty of privately e-mailing me links to the same site.  So helpful, guys!  Anyway, I've highlighted the phrase that's objectionable.  The litany of behaviors following the phrase "one or more of the following categories" includes things that don't belong in the same category.

Rape is abuse.  Intimidation is abuse.  Sexual assault is abuse.  Threatening to harm family and friends is abuse.  I don't think we're going to disagree about any of those.

But I'm sorry, criticism is not abuse.  Yelling is not abuse.  Silent treatment is not abuse.  Slammed doors are not abuse.  Broken promises are not abuse.  Maybe you don't like them, but they're not abuse.  The most you can say about the things in this category is that they often accompany abuse--but often enough they don't.  In fact, they usually don't.  What relationship doesn't have yelling and criticism?  By those criteria, EVERYONE is an abuser.  That's ridiculous and only undermines the credibility of the National Coalition against Domestic Violence, as laudable as their mission is.  Even worse, it trivializes real abuse.

You know, LAM, I have respectfully posted information written by experts in the field of psychology and social services.  Not once was I sarcastic (unlike what I highlighted above) or critical. 

As for what you say is or is not abuse...well, you don't get to make that call.  You may think you do, and you may go on your way believing you do, but you don't.  You do not get to decide what is and what is not abusive for someone else.  Your opinion does not negate the combined thousands of hours of studies by psychotherapists and government agencies.  If you believe it does, then I'll toss in my own bit of sarcasm and ask what color the sky is in your world.
quote:


What would be much more useful than a subjective "fact sheet" indiscriminately labeling all kinds of things as "abuse" would be a pamphlet outlining the pertinent LAWS and the options available to women who feel threatened.  That would do a world of good.  Some people on here have taken the extremely childish attitude that because I'm challenging the supposedly well-documented link between breaking things and abusing people, I must be condoning abuse or I must be a moron.  Come on people, grow up.



Here is a sampling (mind you, you originally wanted a document talking about breaking things):

Vermont:  In most states, emotional abuse is not illegal...then again, domestic physical abuse used to not be illegal, either.   In 2003, Vermont proposed a house bill outlawing emotional abuse:  http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/State/vt/2003/VTH203/default.asp

It did not pass, because of the conclusion that emotional abuse is subjective, and for fear that home-schooled children would be removed from their homes, being defined as isolated. 


Minnesotahttp://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/domabuse.pdf

Page 3 under definitions:  * the infliction of fear of imminent physical harm, bodily injury, or assault

Page  13:   Domestic assault. It is a misdemeanor to intentionally inflict or attempt to inflict bodily harm
against a family or household member, or to commit an act with intent to cause fear of
immediate bodily
harm or death against a family or household member. The penalty for the
assault becomes a gross misdemeanor if the actor commits the assault within ten years of a
previous qualified domestic violence-related offense conviction or adjudication of delinquency
against a family or household member. The penalty for the assault becomes a five-year felony if
the actor commits the assault within ten years of two or more previous qualified domestic
violence-related offense convictions or adjudications of delinquency. Minn. Stat. § 609.2242.


Wisconsinhttp://www.ci.madison.wi.us/police/dvlawswi.html
The primary physical aggressor is determined by considering the relative degree of injury or fear inflicted on the persons involved, and any history of domestic abuse between the people involved, keeping in mind the intent of the law to protect victims of domestic violence.

Colorado:  http://www.baddteddy.com/abuse/abuse_laws_colorado.html
2) "Domestic abuse" means any act or threatened act of violence that is committed by any person against another person

Louisianahttp://www.angelfire.com/ar/LRfuzz1/abuselaws/alla.html

(3) "Domestic abuse" includes but is not limited to physical or sexual abuse and any offense against the person as defined in the Criminal Code of Louisiana, except negligent injury and defamation, committed by one family or household member against another. "Domestic abuse" also includes abuse of adults as defined in R.S. 14:403.2 when committed by an adult child or adult grandchild.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Court Watch: http://www.factscourtwatch.org/Emotional-Psychological%20Abuse%20Fact%20Sheet.htm

Definitions, citing emotional abuse court cases:


Emotional/Psychological abuse is referred to in the professional literature by many interchangeable terms such as: emotional abuse, covert abuse, psychological maltreatment, coercive abuse, abuse by proxy, and ambient abuse.  

Psychological maltreatment is a concerted attack by an adult on a child’s development of self and social competence, a pattern of psychically destructive behavior to the child.  (Garbarino, et al, 1986, as cited in Tomison & Tucci, 1997).  

Psychological abuse can be defined as a repeated pattern of damaging interactions between parent(s) and child that becomes typical of the relationship… when a person conveys to a child that he or she is worthless, flawed, unloved, unwanted, endangered, or only of value in meeting another’s needs (Kairys & Johnson, 2002).                  

Emotional abuse is the systematic, patterned and chronic abuse that is used by a perpetrator to lower a victim's sense of self, self-worth and power (Mezey, Post & Maxwell, 2002).  
It [psychological/emotional abuse] is most damaging to children, who are not aware, nor have control over, the pattern of relationships surrounding them, is almost always a precursor or accompaniment to physical aggression, and is based on maintaining consistent power and control over time (Garbarino, 1994).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It doesn't matter to me that you have spouted and left this thread.  If anyone gets anything helpful from any of this, than it was worth the effort.  For those who choose to deny that emotional abuse is a problem in this country and refuse to have a useful discussion about it, let us hope your loved ones are not afflicted.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 10:10:41 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Christ, why are you so aggressive?

It's weird.


And telling us to grow up is what, exactly?


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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 10:12:11 PM   
LadyPact


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NV, thank you for doing all of the work to support the statements that have been previously made.

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 10:17:28 PM   
NuevaVida


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My pleasure, LadyPact.  But once something requested is supplied, something else seems to be requested.  I'm not sure why.  I'm not sure why we can't just have a down to earth conversation about this without the trivializing and sarcasm going on.  It doesn't surprise me, though.  Any time the subject of abuse comes up, it becomes heated because a lot of emotion is at stake. 

Hell, even my ex husband, after being told by three therapists and a priest that he was being abusive, is contending nobody knows what they're talking about and he's been misunderstood. 

It's an important topic.  I'm glad it was brought up.  And it is no wonder that because some abuse is "subtle" (as stated in the topic of this thread), laws against it are nearly impossible to create.


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 10:35:30 PM   
IronBear


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:Lam, you and I have been around a while and down the same tracks a few times and we've often agreed and had fun doing so. I am going to disagree with you in this though. yelling, criticism, slamed doors or similar agressive behaviour is in fact often seen as being part of abuse when done deliberately in order to cower the target. it does depend on the way and reason it is used. I'm not going to hunt up reports, studies or court rulings here but I dare say someone can dig something up. I am certainly talking from experience, what I have witnessed, my own case files and discussions with other Psychologists and Counsellors. 

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(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 10:58:32 PM   
Lockit


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I typically will not continue with a dispute on the boards... but when we were being called dangerous because of our stand with proof widely accepted... I got a little bent out of shape and did continue.  Not feeling well, even if I had wanted to prove anything, I couldn't have done a lot, but I saw that nothing was being heard and was only being argued.  Had it only been a debate... that would have been fine.  But the 'sutle' or not so sutle claims that we were misled, dangerous and spreading psycho babble and were doing harm to people in our claims that aligned with professionally created documents widely used by many in fields that work with abusive situations... enough was enough.

I thank you ladies who have dug up information and I hope that someone will benefit from it, but I doubt seriously that one will be.  He continues to attack the person and not just the stand and that in itself is offensive.  I never had a real problem with a topic or thread as I do with this one.  Simply because of the attacks and claims of how we or I were dangerous to people.

After many years of working in domestic abuse, directing a shelter, working with other shelters, following up with clients and their um's, dealing with abusers and advocating for changes in laws and such... you learn a thing or two.  I am not an expert or professional... but I am not coming from a place of wounded and striking out fair or not.  A lot of these things by themselves mean little.  It is a pattern of repeating some of the same behaviors and even that was not accepted.  So now... I can honestly say... I have a real attitude about being called dangerous by one who feels he sets the terms and then when we are not convinced he insults and accuses.

If I were sitting here with a client and her spouse was spouting that shit off... well... I think most know what I would tell her.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 11:08:06 PM   
DavanKael


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I haven't read all of the posts but imo subtle abuse is far more insidious and damaging than more straight-forward stuff, largely because it can be rationalized away more simply.  I would have a very small tolerance for very obvious physical manifestations of abuse because of my family of origin (And my ever-so-useful credo of "I may be small but you've got to sleep sometime") but allowing those things that dig claws that bleed away parts of your soul, I have come to realize, are in their own way worse, again, not because they are more inherently damaging (Because it's quantitatively irrelevant) but because I think it's easier to tell one's self certain things aren't so bad or to internalize them or whatever.  Personally, were I to have to choose: get throttled (Or whatever) and get it over with compared with something that just wounds and festers on an on-going basis, I'd choose the quick form, though I aim to have none of it. 
For those of us who have family histories that are less than idyllic, that may predispose us to tolerate (Or to be intolerant) of some things differently than those who lack that particular or those particular scripts. 
It does all come down to personal responsibility too.  What we choose to put up with or to dish is on us.  When I've been affronted or wronged substantially, I will generally give a person the opportunity to get out of my sight.  If they don't, I'll tend to hack at them with greater or less zeal depending on the affront.  Is it right because I've been hurt?  Enh, the textbook answer would be 'of course not'.  Do I actually believe it is not right per se but deserved in some instances, you betcha.  I understand how to be ice in the rock yet, my decision to call that forth is mine, no one else's, so that responsibility belongs to me and to no one else. 
Eeryone has our 'triggers' orpoints that set us to crazy.  Knowing one's self and making cognizant decisions is reeeeally important.  Are we stillgoing to screw it up sometime, sure, but I think if we are exhibiting that kind of personal insight and responsibility we walk perhaps differently. 
  Davan

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(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 11:08:53 PM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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Hi there Lockit,

Don't blow a gasket but...in some ways he is right.  But we've all been saying it's subjective and we've all been saying it depends on context.  That part wasn't addressed.  Where it can be dangerous is in situations like Vermont - they feared people might take a law so literally it would be abused (how's that for irony - an abuse law about abuse).  The thing is, in order for "subtle" abuse to stand a chance in the court room, a history of that abuse would have to be proven.  Think about it - 3 therapists and a priest said my ex husband was abusive and I still couldn't obtain a restraining order because he hadn't hit me...yet.  It didn't matter that his verbal and emotional abuse had escalated to the point where (after I moved out and in my apartment) he pushed me up against the wall and forced a kiss on me, and then left subtle and evasive threats on my voicemail.  I had to prove he had physically hurt me in order to prevent him from physically hurting me.

In the wrong hands, though, the law can be abused, and that's what people fear.  But think about it - if we avoided making laws for fear of abusing them, there would be no rape laws. 

Don't get too bent out of shape over being called dangerous.  You know better than to think there is any truth to that, personally.  :)


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(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 11:10:29 PM   
Lockit


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I agree... and I did try to give room for that...  I'm not blowing a gasket... I just don't like how it all went down. 

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(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 11:11:51 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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NuevaVida,

First, you're also getting heated about this.  I wasn't being sarcastic to YOU--I was being sarcastic to the people who were "helping" me by taking the liberty of sending me links in private e-mail on the other side.  That should have been clear.  And the people I told to grow up were the people who are responding to me as though I'm condoning abuse.

Second, I SAID intimidation is abuse.  Really, people seem to be having a hard time reading what I say and not imagining that I'm saying something else.  What's wrong with listing things like criticism, yelling, slamming doors, and breaking promises, as examples of abusive behavior is precisely that it's all insufficiently contextualized; they all COULD accompany abuse, but, be honest, more often they don't.  I've broken promises; I've yelled; I've slammed doors.  And yet you'll never find anyone who has ever been intimate with me who will tell you that I'm an abuser.  (Asshole, maybe, but not abuser.)  Really, show me someone who has never broken promises, yelled, or slammed doors.

Third, you know, I have to point out, that I still don't see where your links demonstrate the claim that touched all this off: that abusers begin by breaking inanimate objects and move on to harming people.  THAT'S what I was objecting to.  I never said that abusers don't intimidate their victims, or that abuse isn't really so bad, or any of the other crap that people are putting in my mouth.  To be honest, you've done some of it in this thread too.  Take your link from womansdivorce.com (http://www.womansdivorce.com/psychological-emotional-abuse.html); where does that say anything about breaking inanimate objects?  It just states how serious emotional abuse can be--as though I were some kind of caveman who needed to be told this.

Fourth, this time I really am done with this subject, and all the womansdivorce.com websites in the world aren't going to make too much of an impression on me.  So people, save your effort and stop sending me links on the other side.  And stop following me onto other threads.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 100
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