Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear

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Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/Sh... - 1/9/2006 4:06:15 PM

MasterLark

Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
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Part of the path of discovery for a sub/slave seems to be that point in a relationship (D/s or M/s) where she struggles with what she sees as being honest and with telling her Master/Dominant what He/She wants to hear, to be the kind of sub/slave expected.

The dichotomy seems to me to be a false one -- either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.

Does this situation sound familiar to others?

Post #: 1

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 4:15:47 PM

LadyCompassion

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Joined: 11/4/2005
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One man once told me something that has stuck in my mind and I think it relates to this. He said that "when I ask you if you like it you should say yes and mean it" (within reason of safety and such ). So he is saying that you should answer to please your Master/Mistress but you should also mean it because it is pleasing to Him or Her.

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 2

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 4:15:52 PM

Painslave52

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Joined: 1/9/2006
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At first it was a matter of pleasing but now there is no question about it I look forward to our time together and so far enjoy every moment of it. The only problem I have is that I have fallen in love with the guy and I know we will never be together as such. Makes bit complicated some times

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 3

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 4:19:42 PM

la90066

Posts: 177
Joined: 1/1/2004
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If there's one thing I can not stand, it's a LIAR.

Dom/sub... Master/slave... Top/bottom... It's all irrelevant -- tell the TRUTH or don't let the door hit ya in the ass. This is really high on my list.

I've also found that often, people lie because they don't want to hurt another's feelings. I've also found, that just as often, it's no big deal so the person telling the lie was worried about nothing to begin with.

Always tell the truth.

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 4

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 4:22:26 PM

swtnsparkling

Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
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tell the TRUTH

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace

A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please

(in reply to la90066)

Post #: 5

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 4:34:03 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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A dom needs to be secure in him/herself and their relationship, or it will crumble. They have to be able to hear things they don't want to hear. The ones who try otherwise eventually find themselves very frustrated.

A balance can easily be had between being respectful and being honest. Too many novice doms throw out good communication in their endeavors to remain "on top."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 6

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 4:54:40 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

Part of the path of discovery for a sub/slave seems to be that point in a relationship (D/s or M/s) where she struggles with what she sees as being honest and with telling her Master/Dominant what He/She wants to hear, to be the kind of sub/slave expected.

One thing I tell people about myself, "Do not ask a question unless you are prepared to hear the answer." If I am asked a question, I will tell the truth and not what will make someone happy. I do this with my Lord as well and I have to admit it has gotten him annoyed in the past and will likely do so again in the future. However, he makes the decision to ask the questions and he knows I will give him blunt honesty, even if I think it will piss him off. It isn't always easy to do this, but there are times that I enjoy having a different opinion than he does. He and I think so much alike that it is rare for it to happen and we both learn something when it does. It may annoy us both, but at the end of the day there is growth in the relationship and that always pleases him.

I do struggle with being the slave that is expected,but often it is just my perception of what he expects and not his expectations. The miss-match in perceptions is what causes a lot of my internal conflict and I rarely hesitate over honesty.

It also helps that integrity is a core character strength for both my Lord and me and it is part of the foundation of our relationship. You won't get half-truths or polite lies from either of us; of course I tend to be a little gentler in sharing truths than he does *g* It is not uncommon for me to say, "my Lord, you are an asshole my Lord" in response to him asking what I thought of something he said or a post he wrote.... it is said with deep love and affection of course.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 7

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:01:13 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

The dichotomy seems to me to be a false one -- either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.

Does this situation sound familiar to others?

Doesn't sound familiar at all. I live my life by a certain credo. My dom has never once asked me to change it for him. He likes me the way I am. Which is the way everyone should like everyone or else they really should have never gotten involved to begin with.

If you don't like somebody for who they are, why are you with them? Why can't you just find someone you liked in the first place rather than try to change people?

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 8

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:04:25 PM

Quivver

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
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I think alot of Sub's have never been programed to actually say EXACTLY what they want. They are pleasers so they try to please, if they can find something good in part if not all, they will try to deal with it the best they can . . . to please. It's not lying, it's not even avoiding, it's part of their personality, a weakness of sorts in some ways.
I was thinking about something quite similar this evening. One of the reasons so many Sub's feel taken advantage of and so many Dom's feel Sub's lie. It takes alot to build a naturally submissive female into a strong submissive that is aware of her likes and dislikes, that can speak of them in a tone that isnt threatening and stick to her guns when pressured. We all see so much negitivity when it's all just a learning experiance. A fine fine line if you ask me.

Q

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 9

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:06:57 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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quote:

either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.

Well, I'd go with the honesty. I'd rather be real and deal with the possibility of a disagreement than keep something important locked away. It will surface at some point, anyway. People can compromise. And what is a big deal to you may be a little bit of nothing to the other person and not a point of conflict.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 10

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:15:30 PM

DesertRat

Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
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I always want the truth. If it's something I don't like...I can deal with it. It's not gonna wipe me out or make me feel threatened. Seems to me that, one way or another, the truth comes out eventually anyway. By that time, a layer of additional complexity might have built up and who needs that? I like simplicity.

Bob

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 11

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:21:03 PM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

Part of the path of discovery for a sub/slave seems to be that point in a relationship (D/s or M/s) where she struggles with what she sees as being honest and with telling her Master/Dominant what He/She wants to hear, to be the kind of sub/slave expected.

The dichotomy seems to me to be a false one -- either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.

Does this situation sound familiar to others?

Being honest should be what your Dom/me wants to hear. Honesty should be what's expected from your sub/slave. vWhy would a Dominant want to be lied to?

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 12

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:28:38 PM

phoenixslave

Posts: 66
Joined: 6/13/2004
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Master Lark, this does indeed depend on the Dom's earnestness in asking. We are told that a slave should have no wants or needs that are not his Master's. That sounds beautiful, but makes many stumble as it is human nature to have them. Guilt in having them can lead a slave to saying what they think the Master wants to hear. My opinions exist, and my Master asks for them. When he can he respects them, when he can't, he explains why and takes no offense at the difference. i still chide myself for them. i could not have become as close or as readable without complete candor, nor could i continue to totally trust Him if it was not important.

(in reply to DesertRat)

Post #: 13

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:44:11 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCompassion

One man once told me something that has stuck in my mind and I think it relates to this. He said that "when I ask you if you like it you should say yes and mean it" (within reason of safety and such ). So he is saying that you should answer to please your Master/Mistress but you should also mean it because it is pleasing to Him or Her.

Yes, I agree. What I believe to be true submission involves not just being a "yes" person, but the gradual inactivation of your will, a thing that will continue to exist but which you CHOOSE to allow to remain inert for the sake of your dominant. I think that many people are of the (in my opinion, mistaken) impression that a submissive gives over her will en toto to the point where she, in effect, has no will or desires left. This model does not work for me, personally.
What does work, for me, is a matter of framing things in terms of meaning . If my dominant wants me to eat white bread while I have become accustomed to only eating whole grain breads and shunning white bread for the sake of my health, it is not a matter of my simply saying "yes" to the question "Do you want to eat white bread?" but rather a matter of my deciding that I want to eat white bread for him more than I want to eat whole grain bread for myself . So,no, I am not to say "yes" unless I mean it. And the way I am able to say yes honestly is to frame it so that it is not a choice between wheat bread and white bread, but a choice between pleasing him and acting of my own will.
If I can honestly say "yes" in those terms, it is no longer about whether or not I want to eat white bread. Therefore, I am able to answer honestly because I want to do what pleases him more than I want to enact my own will. Naturally, this has to provide organically some sort of secondary gain for the submissive (in other words she has to feel that she gains more from submitting to him than she does from preserving the right to enact her own will), otherwise it will be nothing by empty martyrdom for its own sake which gets old quick.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to LadyCompassion)

Post #: 14

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:44:40 PM

girl4you2

Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline

in submission or anything else, "the truth shall set you free," and it does. to lie or conceal does nobody any good in the short or long run.

if someone thinks their master/dominant wishes to hear something other than what they perceive as the truth, it is something to be discussed, but saying something just so that the master/dominant can hear what they wish is a poor foundation or building block for a relationship.

_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 15

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 5:52:53 PM

justheather

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Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

but saying something just so that the master/dominant can hear what they wish is a poor foundation or building block for a relationship.

I agree. That is why we have to frame things in a light that creates the possibility for you to actually want something other than your own will.

In my own relationship I am free to say whether or not I desire or like a certain thing. If my dominant asks me, though, "Do you want me to...." or "Do you want to ...... for me?" with regard to something I do not like, do not enjoy for its own sake, it is still possible for my honest answer to be "yes".

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to girl4you2)

Post #: 16

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 6:05:00 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

Ideally, a slave's ideas/desires would become one with her Master's over time.

I suppose it's a question of really how much you want to lose yourself in your Master, if submissive. If you're involved in a less literal form of bondage, honesty and personal preferences will be an issue, yes. Over time, I enjoy brainwashing my girls so much that such an issue doesn't arise. Her need and my desire are honestly one and the same.

< Message edited by amayos -- 1/9/2006 6:07:05 PM >

(in reply to MasterLark)

Post #: 17

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 6:20:50 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

The dichotomy seems to me to be a false one -- either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.

I would rather be honest about things...and disagree, object, quarrel, and argue right up front...then be dishonest only to have it turn to resentment because of the lack of honesty.

quote:

I think alot of Sub's have never been programed to actually say EXACTLY what they want

I disagree with this. Yes we are pleasers, we try to please, but if we can not find that balance it does not mean that we just deal with it. And to say that what we do is only because we have no 'programming' for speaking up when we need to...I am sorry, but I don't see that anywhere. Submissives and slaves are very adept at speaking their minds, and telling their Masters/Dominants what THEY want. It may not mean that we will get it...but it is well known.

And I have yet to meet one who would enjoy a relationship based on dishonesty. I am sorry, but I don't think that any Master/Dominant would want a submissive or slave who was afraid to disagree with them over something. In my mind that is nothing more than a doormat.

Just my opinion though

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to MasterLark)

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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 6:27:38 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I disagree with this. Yes we are pleasers, we try to please, but if we can not find that balance it does not mean that we just deal with it. And to say that what we do is only because we have no 'programming' for speaking up when we need to...I am sorry, but I don't see that anywhere. Submissives and slaves are very adept at speaking their minds, and telling their Masters/Dominants what THEY want. It may not mean that we will get it...but it is well known.

And I have yet to meet one who would enjoy a relationship based on dishonesty. I am sorry, but I don't think that any Master/Dominant would want a submissive or slave who was afraid to disagree with them over something. In my mind that is nothing more than a doormat.

Just my opinion though

I think one of the really beautiful things about being in a healthy D/s is that I dont have to ever be afraid to be honest (aside from my own transient insecurity which makes it take a little longer sometimes). Im told on a consistent basis that I am accepted for who I am, unconditionally.

So, I agree, Irish - I dont see the whole "programming" phenomenon at work in a healthy D/s relationship. Maybe in someone's fantasy, but in reality it is not "brainwashing" that leads to healthy and beautiful submission. It is unconditional love and acceptance which leads to freedom to be honest.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 19

RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 6:44:25 PM

newflowers

Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
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i think a significant part of the answer to this lies in these perspectives:

quote:

Being honest should be what your Dom/me wants to hear. Honesty should be what's expected from your sub/slave. vWhy would a Dominant want to be lied to?

Yes, being honest - the absolute bare, bald, unvarnished truth is what one hopes a dominant should want to hear; however, i think you will find that in the search for a partner, that submissives learn that saying what you mean often equals on to the next one. it takes a while to learn that if he "can't handle the truth" (i love movie quotes), then moving on is exactly what should happen. Without going into another "real dom" discussion - it can be safely said that being able to accept the truth from a submissive is something that the RD can do - he is not threatened or made insecure by her or her words.

quote:

I think alot of Sub's have never been programed to actually say EXACTLY what they want. They are pleasers so they try to please, if they can find something good in part if not all, they will try to deal with it the best they can . . . to please. It's not lying, it's not even avoiding, it's part of their personality, a weakness of sorts in some ways.

i do not know that i would call it a weakness, but i do know that, for myself at least, this is part of who i am and something i struggle with - the need to be found pleasing. but here, there is another probem - so often, there is talk of the submissive who is a brat or who is a smart ass, when we disagree or espouse a contrary opinion, when we indicate that we have our own standards and guidelines by which we abide, we are then those things- the brat, the smart-ass, we are topping from the bottom, we are not submissive "enough" or, best of all, we are not a "real" submissive. i believe it is true that in the need to please others, we often sublimate our own desires and thoughts. we also learn that by being agreeable, we obtain the praise and acceptance that we need/desire. these are lessons we learn from an early age - we are well "programmed." perhaps it is weakness, though i would not call it so.

quote:

We are told that a slave should have no wants or needs that are not his Master's. That sounds beautiful, but makes many stumble as it is human nature to have them. Guilt in having them can lead a slave to saying what they think the Master wants to hear.

After being "programmed" to behave and response in a particular manner - one that allows submissives to meet the need of our basic natures, and learning by experience that not being agreeable can bring viturperative and rejection, we hear that it is the need of the dominant that is most important and other such lines which only further ingrain what submissives may know to be true - disagreeing is NOT a good thing no matter what anybody says. The party line may be honesty and communication, the reality is far different. it is the reality we learn from our earliest years; it is a reality with which we live.

In response to the post, i think this not only a familar circumstance, but one that is perpetuated by a pervasive bdsm internet philosophy on most sides both online and real time. i once thought the way to get around that was to go out - oh not so as the same "types" that say the same things are found everywhere.

after a relationship is established, one can hope that this is no longer an issue. one can also hope that in finding the "right" match - the complementary half, it is at this time that these - honesty and its lack and the subsequent guilt or feelings of being displeasing go away.

one does hope.

newflowers

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 20

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