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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 10:52:37 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

I listened.

Perhaps you need to read what i wrote? If you believe that the "call to action" is to spread the gospel, you are very much mistaken. Hatred and fear hidden behind religion remains hatred and fear.

Is "something your wrote" also something you deleted?

Did I get the quote incorrect from the video?

Or, perhaps, are you seeing it through you own biases?

Firm

tell ya what Firm...go ahead and start converting the Muslims. Let us know how it is working for ya


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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 10:55:57 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

1. Why "BS"?
2.  What's to be debunked?
3. What information or facts are inaccurate?


The problem is with the conclusion it tries to bring one to. It does not make the conclusion for you but their formula is simple.

Fastest growing religion and will be the majority in a short time.

Sharia law, look what all the horrible things it does.

If the West becomes majority Muslim we will all be under Sharia law.

It is the last part that is false, a good look at Turkey or other nations with a huge Muslim population debunks this conclusion.

Things that are left out of the video, fact that most of the extremist come from third world countries and the ones they recruit are impovershed. Never has there been a fall of a major country due to a Muslim conversion, or any religious conversion, in modern times.

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 10:56:01 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

tell ya what Firm...go ahead and start converting the Muslims. Let us know how it is working for ya



I'm too busy experimenting to see if "atheistic liberals"  can be converted to reason ...

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 11:10:48 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Depends on your definition of reason....Reason tells me, Being an agnostic liberal is more than Reasonable....
YMMV
honest Firm, your poop stirring is rather blatant and not heartening in the slightest.
But:) Im sposing you can call it being the devils advoate if you wish.


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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 11:12:45 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I must have missed some of her posts because I have never gotten the impression she is afraid of religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

As afraid of Christianity as you are kitten, wouldn't it be nice if you could show a little more sympathy, respect and understanding to those who have a distrust of Islam? After all, you and they have a lot in common, even if you're on the other side of the looking glass from one another.




I still don't understand Sanity's comment about my having a lot in common with those that are fearful of Islam, and on my being on the other side of the looking glass from them - unless he was referring to Judaism  .

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 11:21:30 AM   
Fitznicely


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

tell ya what Firm...go ahead and start converting the Muslims. Let us know how it is working for ya



I'm too busy experimenting to see if "atheistic liberals"  can be converted to reason ...

Firm



1) Define "reason" in this context.
2) Who are these "Atheistic Liberals"?
3) Why do they need converting?
4) What to?
5) What gives you the right to make the attempt?

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 12:19:50 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Depends on your definition of reason....Reason tells me, Being an agnostic liberal is more than Reasonable....
YMMV

Hey .... "agnostic" ain't "atheistic", so you're safe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

honest Firm, your poop stirring is rather blatant and not heartening in the slightest.
But:) Im sposing you can call it being the devils advoate if you wish.


I'm actually not intentionally "poop stirring".

I find it disheartening when even the discussion of certain subjects incurs knee-jerk hatred and diatribes.

We are all, to a certain extent, blind to our own prejudices and biases.

Some people handle well that fact being pointed out to them. Some do not.

I'm not a big proponent of group-think, on either side. Occasionally, you'll even see me challenge what many consider "my side", but I don't get any grief from them over that.

However, when I challenge a certain smug mentality that is often found on "the other side", it's usually a different story, and all of a sudden I'm "baiting" (like I'm not constantly being baited with BS).

What makes it even more delicious, is that these are often the same people who pride themselves on being "inclusive" and "loving' and "thoughtful".

They ain't no damn different than the rest of us, and sometimes they are worse.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 12:22:08 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


I still don't understand Sanity's comment about my having a lot in common with those that are fearful of Islam, and on my being on the other side of the looking glass from them - unless he was referring to Judaism  .


That's ok. I understood it perfectly.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 12:28:58 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

1. Why "BS"?
2.  What's to be debunked?
3. What information or facts are inaccurate?


The problem is with the conclusion it tries to bring one to. It does not make the conclusion for you but their formula is simple.

Fastest growing religion and will be the majority in a short time.

Sharia law, look what all the horrible things it does.

If the West becomes majority Muslim we will all be under Sharia law.

It is the last part that is false, a good look at Turkey or other nations with a huge Muslim population debunks this conclusion.

Things that are left out of the video, fact that most of the extremist come from third world countries and the ones they recruit are impovershed. Never has there been a fall of a major country due to a Muslim conversion, or any religious conversion, in modern times.

I don't remember ... was Sharia law even mentioned in the video?

Was there any mention, or even an allusion to Sharia law becoming the law of the land, anywhere?

As far as your argument about no nation being "converted", is it about the religious affilation of the people of a nation, or about going from a secular to a religious based government?

Also, even granting your assumptions ... less than 100 years is kinda a short period, don't you think?

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 1:27:14 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Was there any mention, or even an allusion to Sharia law becoming the law of the land, anywhere?



The original poster, whom you defended so bravely against the evil liberal hords, made it quite clear that she feared 'their' law could be forced upon the rest of us. Of course, Muslims are not a monolithic block, so this fear is baseless anyway.

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 3:18:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It seems logical that the West will be subject to Shariah law once the majority becomes Muslim.



I'd estimate this is what Kittin was referring to. To you (and perhaps some other Americans) this sounds reasonable; to many of us it is absolutely ridiculous. We have the evidence of living with muslims to guide us, and the knowledge that English culture and values is important to us, and we ain't about to waltz down to the mosque any time soon.

There are different perspectives here: religion isn't important in our society, it has ran its course and really no religion is about to take control here. Then there is the: "with us or against us" mentality - we don't think like that.

Time will tell, I suppose.

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 3:32:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Okay Firm, to address just the video itself. First the term fastest growing would mean a standard definition of what fastest growing means.

"Muslim's claim that their growth rate is 235 percent and 47 percent for Christianity. This statistic came from the Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983, and represents 235 percent increase over 50 years."

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm

"The world’s largest Muslim populations are in fast-growing countries such as Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Egypt, and Iran. Islam also happens to be the fastest growing religion in Europe, where an influx of Muslim immigrants from North Africa, Turkey, and South Asia has sent shock waves into a mostly Christian and secular population whose birthrates have stagnated. "

Yearly growth rate is actually 1.84 % . Much of this growth occurs in third world countries where their brith rates are higher and the increase in western countries due to immigration. The world population growth rate is 1.12 % . This would place it second behind Christianity.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3835

The religion with the highest percentage growth rate would be Bahá'í Faith. From 1970 to 2005.

The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace using the 2000-2005 edition of the World Christian Database, concluded that high birth rates were the reason for the growth in all six; however, the growth of Christianity was also attributed to conversions.[26] Although the World Christian Database does not cite sources, a review examining the reliability and bias of the WCD found it "highly correlated with other sources of data" but "consistently gave a higher estimate for percent Christian." In conclusion, they found that "on the whole we find that the WCD is reliable."[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion#cite_note-17

"By number of new adherents Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world with 30,360,000 new adherents annually (from 2000-2005). This is followed by Islam with 23,000,000 new adherents annually and Hinduism at 13,000,000. "


The statistics can be presented and used in such a way to actually show that Deism and Wicca are the two fastest growing religions.

Regardless of any of this, it will not matter much which religion is the fastest growing because the number of disenchanted (those that have left religion) are almost equal to those that have found religion. The statistics for Muslims also include the entire population of those countries that have an Islamic Government (Iran and Saudi Arabia) for example.

Now that there are some facts on the table, we can discuss the hoards of Muslims that may be invading us soon ;).

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/15/2009 8:27:12 PM   
YoursMistress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
But:) Im sposing you can call it being the devils advocate if you wish.


hmm... the devil's advocate is an Evangelical Christian?  Curiouser and curiouser...


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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/16/2009 12:06:55 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YoursMistress

hmm... the devil's advocate is an Evangelical Christian?  Curiouser and curiouser...



I don't recall Firm saying anywhere that he's an Evangelical Christian. 

Why would you make that assumption?

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/16/2009 12:58:51 AM   
YoursMistress


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Status: offline 		My  mistake.  I was merely acknowledging the irony of an advocate for Evangelical Christians being called the devil's advocate.  

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As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/16/2009 10:15:58 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

because Islam recognises Jesus as a prophet


But, isn't worshiping a mere prophet rather than Allah considered heresy, and something that would be irradiated together with its followers?  I believe the nine woman hung in Iran merely adopted a different way of worshiping Allah.   Would I be allowed to be an atheist in a Muslim controlled world? Are we suffering from the so called sin of human respect?


< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 5/16/2009 10:17:27 AM >

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RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/16/2009 10:24:08 AM   
xiam


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Status: offline 		"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things"  (Al-Baqara, Surah 256)


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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/16/2009 10:32:17 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xiam

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things"  (Al-Baqara, Surah 256)




I can reject evil but I cannot believe in either Allah or Jesus Christ.  Where does that put me?

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/16/2009 10:41:55 AM   
xiam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
I can reject evil but I cannot believe in either Allah or Jesus Christ.  Where does that put me?


That is certainly your prerogative...  There is, unfortunately, a huge disconnect between Saudi Sharia and Quranic wisdom.

Allah judges; not us, and that is sort of the point.  It's between you and Him, not me and you.  :)

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: What will the world be like in the next 50 year or ... - 5/16/2009 11:14:47 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xiam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
I can reject evil but I cannot believe in either Allah or Jesus Christ.  Where does that put me?


That is certainly your prerogative...  There is, unfortunately, a huge disconnect between Saudi Sharia and Quranic wisdom.

Allah judges; not us, and that is sort of the point.  It's between you and Him, not me and you.  :)



Islam Position on pagans and atheists
 
 
On Pagans Quran 9:1-6
  1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His apostle to those of the pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances.
  2. Go ye then for four months backwards and forwards (as ye will) throughout the land but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject him.
  3. And an announcement from Allah and His apostle to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage that Allah and His apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If then ye repent it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject faith.
  4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
  5. But when the forbidden months are past then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
  6. If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum grant it to him so that he may hear the word of Allah and then escort him to where he can be secure: that is because they are men without knowledge.
On atheists Quran 47:1-11
  1. Those who reject Allah and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah their deeds will Allah render astray (From their mark).
  2. But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad-for it is the Truth from their Lord He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
  3. This because those who reject Allah follow vanities while those who believe follow the Truth from their Lord: Thus does Allah set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.
  4. Therefore when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight) smite at their necks; at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah He will never let their deeds be lost.
  5. Soon will He guide them and improve their condition.
  6. And admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them.
  7. O ye who believe! if ye will aid (the cause of) Allah He will aid you and plant your feet firmly.
  8. But those who reject (Allah) for them is destruction and (Allah) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).
  9. That is because they hate the Revelation of Allah; so He has made their deeds fruitless.
  10. Do they not travel through the earth and see what was the End of those before them (who did evil)? Allah brought utter destruction on them and similar (fates await) those who reject Allah.
  11. That is because Allah is the Protector of those who believe but those who reject Allah have no protector.
In an Islam world the above would make me pause in exercising my rights under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution and saying "I am an atheist."  Especially that language about smiting my neck.


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